This is THE secret to new found power!!!

4 New Genuine Bosch EV14 42lb/440cc fuel injectors 0280156072 - Fleabay $130 shipped

These injectors are the way God intended the car to be! he- he- he
I have run them @6k above sea level and @ sea level-perfect balance either way. NO ECM upgrades!!!!

I run those with -
Screamon demon coil - this was BIG difference vs. OEM
STOCK spark plugs- tried all others not as good and durable/reliable
Taylor 8.2 wires I think that's the size...
Recon supercharger Teflon coat
15% Sc pulley
0% A/m aluminum Solid Balancer NOT spoke type
5-30 Synthetic Mobil 1 -Always have
Motor mount inserts
Royal Purple in trans Synchromesh synthetic
K/n Filter NOT hot air box! Removed plastic cowl by brake booster and rubber flute from air box lets cool air flow in from cowl better to stock air box
Milled head during recon .35
Shrick cam -really mild vs stock -upgrade still the same

Install the injectors even on OEM cam and you will be amazed!

 

Would be interesting to see a before/after dyno

 

yes I agree but my A$$ told me a lot!!! lol, It pulls and keeps pulling like no end.
When I can spare an extra few bucks I intend to run on a Dyno and see what the new power is on paper and the wheels. I know it's BIG though.
Best,

 

Ps. I would not even consider 380's after running these. 380's what I had and it's night and day.

 

I suspect these two items make the biggest difference to use the extra fuel, since you are probably flowing more air. When you "milled the head" did you just increase compression, or did you open up the valves too and port (flow match) the head?

The cam probably increases lift and doesn't increase duration (intake and exhaust valves are both open) or might eve shrink it a little), which is good for forced induction motors.

Best to have before and after numbers on the same dyno, but dyno numbers would be great. Everyone's "buttometer" is calibrated differently!

Regards,
Jerry

 

Jerry,
no I did not have time to Port match everything I would have had I've been afforded one extra day. The head was just milled and valve job of course with all new guide seals valve 3 angle excetera Springs n valve checked for tension PSI / lbs. there's been a couple of other threads I noticed that have talked about better economy and mileage but the truth of the matter is it does not get better mileage while the gauges show 34 to 36 miles per gallon on average I'm really getting 25 to 27 after measuring it through several tanks. Fill up. so the new injectors and the algorithm do fool the computer.
With that said I'm not getting any worse mileage than I was before and I know I have more horsepower and torque as this thing stands up pays attention and will hand you change back.
yes I know let's get all technical and one day I will get to the dyno but it comes down to more Smiles per mile than ever!

 

Do they just plug into the factory harness?

 

Please tell me how you were able to replace the stock injectors with 440cc injectors...and make NO changes to the ECM tune, and have it not run like crap?

That goes against everything I have ever seen, heard, or read about. Most cars with 440cc injectors won't even start up and idle with 440cc injectors until you get a new tune on them.

What am I missing? I would be interested in some actual dyno numbers also....but unless you have "before 440cc injector" numbers, your new numbers won't mean much.

What were you AFR numbers before and after the 440cc injectors? More fuel doesn't = more power.......the correct AFR's = more power.

 

I have little doubt that the said injectors seems to run fine and all. At closed loop the ECU will trim the opening time based on the upstream O2 sensor a/f mixture sensing. Open loop is entirely different ballgame as it relies on the fixed maps. I did a search of the p/n on NAM and the only hit is this thread. There is an excellent mega thread on injectors on NAM. There is more on the injector than just cc number. Dynamic range, minimum duty cycle, spray pattern, atomization..., just to name a few.

 

If a set of 440cc injectors will run fine in a pretty much stock R53 with the stock tune.....this will be the first time I've never heard about it.

I would be curious what the guys like Way think about this. Not calling BS just yet, but it sounds pretty fishy.

As far as Open/Closed loop....if I remember right, idle and WOT are open loop (running off of fuel trim table)....the only thing that runs closed loop is cruising/light load and throttle.

Search all of the hundreds of threads on this site and other mini sites from guys who have installed 440 or larger injectors. I haven't seen a single person who has said it ran good (or at all) without a tune.

Even 380cc injectors don't run all that great on a stock tune.

 

According to this thread.....the motor might run on 440's, but it's going to run like *****. Not sure how this set of 440's would run perfect with the stock tune......doesn't make sense. These things don't run closed loop at idle or WOT.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-o-a-tune.html

 

I was wondering the same thing as well, IQ is correct, global fuel scaling would be too far off for the ECU to be able to compensate on its own.
The biggest injector I know of that worked with the stock settings were the 400cc's that M7 used to sell, and even then, not all ECU's liked them, esp at startup and idle.
I'd have to speculate that either the tune was already setup for these without realising it, and there was either a problem with the old injectors, or the old injectors were actually too small for the tune and things are finally working correctly.
Or, those injectors are mislabeled.
I'm not trying to say the OP isn't noticing a difference, it just can't be for this reason or as simple as it appears.
In the last 14+ years that people have been experimenting with 400+ cc injectors in the 1st gen cars, no-one has ever gotten them to work without a global fuel scaling adjustment, minimum.
No matter what other mods have been done to help the car use the extra fuel when at WOT (open loop), the closed loop operation at idle and open loop at startup, would just be too far off.

IQ had it close to right, Closed Loop uses the O2 sensors to adjust fuel trims and map tables during normal operation except startup (while the O2 sensors are warming up), Open Loop bypass the sensors and run strictly off the map tables, during start up and WOT. And then there's Siemens....

 

Hopefully Animal will come back and post up some more info. I'm pretty skeptical of his claims......

 

Going to move this the Mod area.

 

I say move it to the trash due to the lack of facts and butt dyno results...

 

And the fact that the thread starter has only 9 posts in 12 years. Kind of odd...

 

Pretty sure he is Canadian. Probably took too many hockey sticks over the head.

 

I would cut the OP some slack. There are many ways to see why he did it. If you picked up a MCS for next to nothing you can afford to be a bit more reckless. You want to only to sink money for mod proportional to the cost of the car. The first thing that struck me is milling the head 0.35".

Had he calculate, estimate, or measure the increase in compression ratio? Had he check how much meat is left for the water jacket? Had he consider detonations, ignition timing, and what the ECU would do with the knock detection? Had he check the cylinder head bolt length? Had he check if the timing chain slacking and if the tensioner and guide will provide enough tension when the chain wears and stretched?

My remark on the 440cc may be all an well is I have no reason to doubt his experience that the car drives better, but shot of saying ignorant (not knowing) is bliss. The cc number of an injector might as well be given a name like Julia or Romeo. It means squat and is just a single meaningless parameter. Modern injectors are not like the jet in the old carburetors. People spend a whole career on them.

 

Absolutely, I was in no way bashing the OP either, it's not like he posted a link to the injectors in a spam attempt.

If they are working for him, great, but the OP and others need to be aware that this has never worked before without ECU adjustments and there are many unknown factors at work here, esp not being the original owner and having little or no idea what has been done to the ECU prior, or having actual data on those specific injectors.

Just don't want to leave it out there, that anyone can just throw a set of injectors larger than 380's in their car without the other appropriate adjustments being "needed".

 

.....this.

If you know anything about how a/f tables, VE tables, and tuning in general works......there is pretty much no way in hell anyone would be able to pull a set of stock 340cc injectors out of a car, and toss in a set of 440cc injectors....not do anything to the PCM/ECU tuning, and have it run right, or even run at all. And to say that is runs better?? Somethings off.....but Animal doesn't seem to want to chime in with any more details, so I guess we will never know.

You are basically bumping up the fuel the motor is getting at idle and wide open throttle by 30%.......no way that would run without scaling back the injectors in the tune. I don't care what cam you run, or what your compression is.

 

I don't profess that I know much about how ECU manages the fuel trims. But I know little enough that in closed loop operations it has a very wide latitude to adjust the injector pulse width based on the upstream O2 sensor. Only when things are so out of whack that it will pull the plug because certain bounds is hit. Like I have pointed out the CC number of the injector means very little, and you cannot say 440cc is 30% larger than 330cc.

If you want to know more about the myriad characteristics of injectors go search for the mega thread here. It is the Standard Motor something. The most interesting are the graphs of injectors with the same CC.

The ECU fuel trim has to be able to adapt to a wide range of conditions. Why do you think all the MCS runs more than fine with 15% pulley? Then there is change in elevation, air temp, winter and summer fuel, and even race fuel. And then there are corner cases like stale fuel.

BTW, idle is closed loop also. Cold start is open loop as the O2 sensor need to reach operating temperature.

I would give the OP some benefit of the doubt that the car indeed makes more power in most situations. My worry for him is the EGT, potential too rich that will soon kill the cat etc. The guy has a V8 powered classic mini, so he is not exactly clueless.

Most people thinks that modern engine air/fuel/timing management is to optimize performance. It actually put a lot of weight on emission control, until WOT which all things go to hell.

 

BUT....WOT is still open loop, which would make the ARF's super rich....that's if you could even get the motor to start and run with the 440cc injectors. But we really don't have any facts, because OP decided not to ever come back and give any.

......so, all assumptions aside, the fact that nobody in the history of R53 MIN's has ever been able to run 440cc injectors on a stock oem R53 tune should tell you something........at least nobody that I have ever heard of. I don't think anyone on here can argue that.....

 

For me it is far more important to realize what I don't know than to rest on the laurel of what I know. I know what I know has very limited bounds. I would not want to make extraordinary claim like you do - nobody in the history of R53...

You haven't cease on your fixation on the CC namesake. Shakespeare said it best. What is in a name?

 

There are literally hundreds and hundreds of posts over the years regarding 440cc injectors in R53 minis......never have I seen someone say "sure, toss them right in your stock R53..you don't even need a tune". In fact......there are hundreds of posts telling people you HAVE to get a tune to make those injectors work.

As far as injector size....I'm assuming that Bosch 440cc injectors are actually 440cc injectors....maybe that's foolish of me??

Maybe all of those tuners that have been tuning these R53's with larger (440cc+) injectors for the last 15 years have just been ripping everyone off....because the motors with a stock run actually in fact tune amazing with them??

Even guys that run the jcw 380cc injectors in their stock R53's say they run decent, but not all that great.

Too bad the guy that tossed these claims out there for us to argue about hasn't came back to give any actual facts or clear up any misconceptions.

 

Well, this thread went nowhere......