I saw the data somewhere... if I find it I will post it. How do you like your Azenis Bisch? Oh and, why $800?! You can pick up the 15s for $75 each.

 

The Azenis are great. You are right. $800.00 was a little steep unless you are talking about R-compounds. I changed it to reflect el cheapo Falkens.

 

Bisch, with the added boost and torque that the charts reveal for the 19%, and in a perfect vacuum-like world, that added uumph should otherwise translate to much better perfomance, in all regards. We however get something that performs better in certain situations. That is, as I understand it, the theory becoming a reality...

 

PMC, would you mind listing your engine mods? I'm curious what it take to get 250hp Thanks

 

I have to disagree with the above. The SC is in boost creation mode depending on how far you push the pedal. With the 19% you will push the pedal down less for the same degree of acceleration therefore you will be in boost creation mode less often than if you had a 15% pulley. If what you're saying is true, the 19% would significantly reduce gas mileage. But it doesn't. Actually, if they were each in boost mode equal amounts of time, the 19% should burn more gas. But again, it doesn't which backs up my claim that you're in boost mode less with the 19% if you drive it the same, no?

 

Obviosuly I'm no expert. At least I hope that's obvious...

If one is making the same power by pushing the pedal down less, it's for one reason - the SC is doing it.

The added power of a 19% reduction SC pulley is happening by making it easier to rotate, by virtue of its smaller diameter. The faster it turns, the quicker it builds pressure or boost. An equal amount of downward force on the gas pedal will yield different boost levels for 15 vs 19% pulley, all else being equal. Boost comes on faster (easier) with a 19%. When one says that there is power on tap, that is the boost seemingly on demand, and that is good, to a degree.

An MCS with a 19% is much easier to get into boost production, and for that reason, I'm quite certain that the SC is producing pressure more so than with a 15% driving it.

One can drive to work with a 15% and actually fairly easily stay out of boost (not fun, but very doable). With a 19%, this will not be as easy. It will be more challenging because a flick of the gas pedal will make it want to leave a vacuum state to engage the SC...

In a sprint like at a drag strip, the 19% will also compress more air from the get-go, which also works the SC more, and harder (higher peaks). And considering that it is quite likely that the ET will not be better because of this added stress/heat, one really needs to see that something is happening here...

There are other scenarios I'm sure, but the above two seem to indicate (trying to be polite here) that the 19% is working the SC more. Heck, that's what makes the 19% applealing; it makes power! But because gains are not always realized, it tells us that the stock blower is being pushed to where more does not always equate to more...

As I've said before - we've maxed on this blower. Get a different (more efficient) SC, a turbo replacement, or add a turbo into the equation (twincharger). Well, there's also displacment...

With all of that said, I want to make it abundantly clear that I'm not negative on further reductions from birth or anything. I actually think that I might have been one of the first to come out say about two years ago (here on NAM or then called....?) that one of the positives of being able to easily swap pullies is that we might find further reductions feasible in the future. I've been open to the idea, and even secretly waiting/hoping that such would prove to be fruitful.

I guess we can't find threads from long ago. I just tried and no dice...

 

Unfortunately, I just got a boost gauge and didn't have one when I had the 15%. But I can still tell you that it's surprisingly easy to be in a vacuum state with the 19%. I wish I could compare data with the 15%, but there's no way I'm switching back!

 

That added power that is there with a slight tap on the pedal exists simply because the SC is working sooner, so there is no boost guage needed to discern that, or the need for you to contemplate switchin' back my friend. Enjoy!

 

I am not so convinced of the problems with the 19%. I agree with greatgo and Bisch. You do hear some negative from tuners like Randy (on the other hand some tuners really recommend it). Randy has made a few statements, but I have never seen any numbers to indicate that what he is saying is true. The numbers by Andy do not show the massive jumps in heat that Randy indicates is happening. With the 19% and an intercooler it is still cheaper than the 15% with a Unichip, and the power is much more pronounced. What I find funny is that people like Randy are concerned about recommending the 19% pulley because of the heat generated, yet they are running them on the track at unreal rpm's. The supercharger or engine have not broken, although the belts have, but what is to be expected when running the supercharger at 12-15% above the efficient redline of the supercharger.

With the 19% and a rempped ECU for a lower rpm, you will be running the engine a lot less harder and reducing wear in general. I am sure the Unichip is great, but who runs their engine at 6,700-7500 rpm all the time. That is where you really start seeing the power of the Unichip (sure it happens lower, but the peaks are up at the higher end), whereas with the 19%, you are creating more power at a more comfortable rpm range, which is where we are driving at most of the time. If you are running your 15%/Unichip at 6,500 rpm most of the time, than you have a lot more issues than worrying about adiabatic inefficiencies or extra heat. A 19% at 4,000 rpm is a lot better for the entire car than a 15% at 7,000 rpm.

 

Going from stock to a 15% is a winner down low, and pulls like a champ to redline, over and over again. There are no such discussions between the stock pulley guys and the 15% guys for one simple reason - it is very clear that the 15% pulley outperforms, period.

Now, there have been a few stating that the jump from 15 to 19 offers even more of a gain than that from stock to 15. Ok. The dragstrip results don't make that painfully obvious, like the 15 does compared to stock. Tuners are not recommending it for high speed events, or ones of much duration due to heat concerns. The 15% doesn't have such disclaimers, and apparently for good reason. The 19% starts to canibalize itself to the point to where the 15 can outperform it...

The peformance gain from going to 15 to a 19 is not a slam dunk like going from stock to a 15 - gains are not had all the way around, in all driving conditions. Thankfully we are not hearing such talk much anymore...

The benefits being stressed now is that it helps in everyday driving. With a quicker boost, I'm sure it does. When I want to get into it though, I will drive it hard and for extended durations of time. I want a set-up better suited to that driving, not one where even a 1/4 miles begins to reveal diminishing returns.

I'll let Randy speak for himself. If I were a tuner, and having a sense of responsibility for what I recommend to my customers, I too would take the cautious side. He could very easily sell any pulley option. It is not as though he has an investment in some 15% pulley company . He has probably lost business by following his heart and doing what he thinks is right and I salute him for his standards and ethics. And as a tuner pushing the envelope, and constantly trying new things, I commend him again on his experimentation, including the 19%...

Oh, and with regard to the health or longevity issue. I beg to differ. "Living" at 4k RPM, and while in boost more often vs. being at 7k RPM for a split second, and only when racing? I'll take the later, especially when I can get there faster .

Performance-wise, the 19% is not the best solution for all pefromance enthusiasts. It is not the no-brainer choice like going from a stock to 15. I think we are beyond that by now.

Grabbing onto the belief that it is simply better than a 15 is not even firm ground to stand on now. If further additions and future modifications can change this reality, I'll be all ears!

 

Heck a 19% at 6000 RPM is better for the car than the 15% at 7000 RPM. Dgszweda1 - your other point is also a great one. The only numbers we've seen back up the 19% proponents and go against what Randy and others are saying. That doesn't make the anti-19 percenters wrong, but so far, the only evidence we've seen is pointing in that direction.

You know a big part of this comes down to money and profits. And I'm not talking about anyone in particular or trashing anyone here. But if you were a vendor, would you rather sell someone a $80-120 part which you make a small margin on or would you rather sell a similar part along with a $600-800 ECU of which the majority is profit and possibly a $1000-1200 intercooler on top of that. You talking a $40 profit or a $1000 profit. Or some of the earlier tuners were against the 19% yet they were selling $1000 headers and $1000+ polished heads. If you can get a 19% pulley for the same price as the 15% and get an additional 6-8lbs of torque down low, there's no reason to spend several thousand on other mods (headers, heads, throttle bodies) b/c all of them put together won't give you that amount of torque on the S.

This is why certain vendors would only sell the 15% pulley with an ECU and heck - some still swear by that. Those people claimed that the 15% ran too lean and yet that was proven not to be true by just about everyone.

 

Let's remember that stock to 15% is a 15 percent difference while a 15% to 19% is a FOUR percent difference. What I'm saying and have been saying all along is the difference in performance between a 15% and 19% is way more than 1/4 the difference between stock and 15%. It's more like 50%+ of the difference. :smile:

I disagree with this as well. Now first let me say loud and clear - Nothing against Randy! I think he is a great guy and has done tons for the MINI community. That said, how much business (money) has he really lost? How many 19% enthusiasts has he turned away that bought pullies elsewhere? Seriously...what a handful? What's that, maybe $100 of lost business? Now how many people on the fence between a 15% and 19% has he convinced to get a 15% and ECU at these pulley parties? Maybe 20, 30, 50? Who knows? So for each person he converts from a 19% to 15% and ECU, he makes an extra $500 or so, right? Believe me, selling a 15% and ECU instead of a 19%, he not only hasn't lost money, he's made a ton of it. And now, he'll install a 19% for you if you'd like. So where's the loss in business?

Here's more info on my situation. I started with an intake and then got the 15% pulley shortly afterwards. Well I hoped it would be enough, but it wasn't. So I tried an exhaust. Nice improvement but still not enough - especially in the summer heat. The car was just way too sluggish. So I seriously considered an exhaust header, a polished head, throttle body and an ECU. That would have run me around $4000. Well people started testing these other parts. People started posting dynos. Most dynos on exhaust headers and heads showed little to no gains. Throttle bodies showed to be a waste of money - even with a pulley. ECU's showed promise but inconsistency. Some would post a 12HP gain dyno and someone else would complain about zero gains. But even the better dynos showed most of the power on the top end. I still was weighing all the options and going to buy something b/c I wanted more power. I needed more power. Then talk and testing of a 17% and 19% pulley came out. I read. I emailed. I PMed. I called. I became convinced and took the plunge. It cost me under $150 to upgrade including labor. I have the heat-on style so the upgrade was only $80 for the pulley piece. Now I have the power I've been dreaming of in this car. I am no longer in the market for an exhaust header, heads, throttle bodies, wires, ignition upgrades. I got it all in a 19% pulley. What would have cost over $4k, I got (and maybe more) for under $150. That says it all.

BTW, after driving probably 5k miles in the summer heat now, I'm more convinced than ever that 1) This is the best MCS mod; and 2) Heat is just not an issue. Although there is a good increase in torque from the 15% to the 19% and of course it comes earlier in the RPM range, remember it's only a 4% increase. How could 4% make that big of a difference with regards to heat? Well, it doesn't. Or doesn't seem to. And also remember that the only "published" data on this situation backs up the 19% camp. So I say let the anti-19% group prove otherwise. And let's not forget, if we do shift earlier on the street with the 19%, there will be less heat generated, not more with the 19% versus the 15%. I have found this to be true in my case - I really don't notice as big as a power dropoff this summer with the 19% as I did last summer with the 15%.

And as far as ECUs go, there will be effective ECU solutions for the 19%. And these solutions will give large increases in power - more than the current ECU offerings for the 15%. Unfortunately, all the testing will take time.

Well for one the 19% is faster but seriously, remember when you're maintaning speed, you're in a vacuum. So even with "living" at 4k RPMs with the 19%, the supercharger is hardly working and the engine is not under boost most of the time. I know for a fact that I cruise at a lower RPM at 19% versus 15%, I know for a fact that I shift earlier with the 19% than the 15% - I used to shift at 6500 to redline almost all of the time with the 15%, now I almost always shift by 6k RPMs with the 19%. In fact I've had my boost gauge for a week and have only brought it near redline ONCE - and that's in a week and I wanted to see my highest boost level! Previously with the 15% I used to hit redline 30+ times a day! (I drive a lot of miles daily- so far 50k in 1 yr, 9 months).

And one last part of my "seven cents" here - the limiting factor on the 19% at high RPMs is not heat - at least this has not yet been shown to be the case. It's the amount of fuel available. Jlm has shown this in his testing.

Thanks everyone. I think this is a good topic and a great discussion!

 

Hey Jock,

I think you've got too many SUCK's in there....

I can't believe I just said that ....

BB

 

"it is very clear that the 15% pulley outperforms, period."What? I'll assume you are comparing to stock size pulley...


"Now, there have been a few stating that the jump from 15 to 19 offers even more of a gain than that from stock to 15. Ok. The dragstrip results don't make that painfully obvious,"Again, I tried to tell you that comparing my times was not an accurate look at the differences between the two. The runs were done under very different conditions. The 19% was run in temps more than 20 degrees warmer. There was a huge increase in car weight as well.



"Tuners are not recommending it for high speed events, or ones of much duration due to heat concerns."Well, if most of the tuners are using it at the track, that alone should tell you something. There are obviously good reasons for use and testing.



"The 19% starts to canibalize itself to the point to where the 15 can outperform it..."What? Unless you have the data to put up...how can you state this?



"The peformance gain from going to 15 to a 19 is not a slam dunk like going from stock to a 15 - gains are not had all the way around, in all driving conditions. Thankfully we are not hearing such talk much anymore..."In normal, non-track situations, the 19% sure does work well. Your not hearing much because it's newness is gone.



"I want a set-up better suited to that driving, not one where even a 1/4 miles begins to reveal diminishing returns."Again, if you put them side-by-side, under the same conditions, the 19% will whoop the 15%. Plain and simple.



"I too would take the cautious side."And that is obviously what you do, and that is fine. To each their own. Just don't blindly say that the other guy's set-up doesn't work without anything to back it up.




"performance-wise, the 19% is not the best solution for all pefromance enthusiasts." For those seeking a mild and cautious increase in performance, the 15% does just fine. There is no bickering about that.



"If further additions and future modifications can change this reality, I'll be all ears!"[/QUOTE]

Hang tight my friend. You'll be on the dark side soon!


And, in the words of Jerry Springer...
"Some final thoughts for the day...In this world of performance enhancements we live in, some mods produce good feelings for some...where others need more. Not all mods are meant for everyone. "

 

I agree with Greatgo. You have to take every tuner with a grain of salt. Each one of them has things they like and things they dislike. Some of the tuners that people swear by disagree with each other on certain issues. And as greatgo says, there are certain tuners that swear that you have to have an ECU upgrade with a pulley, otherwise you will blow your engine. And they even have great stories and good examples. Some of the people who trust these tuners, I have seen also rant how great other tuners are, even though they disagree with this statement. So what I am trying to say is that even though the tuner is great, you really have to outweigh what is sometimes there opinion and what is sometimes fact.

The facts are: 1) The 19% pulley is only 4% smaller 2)no one has shown any other failures of a supercharger or engine directly related to only a 19% pulley. 2) people have put a lot of miles on the 19% pulley (some plus 40,000 miles) in hot weather with no ill effects. 3) We have seen pictures of at least one supercharger internals which show no signs of wear 4) Andy has shown boost, A/F and temperature measurements, showing no real number concerns.

Most of the stuff coming from people who have concerns with the 19% pulley have raised great theoretical concerns such as high temperature, extra wear, no power gain.... But no one has ever shown a single number or picture to prove this or even show a concern. If heat was still a concern, add the $600 intercooler which has been shown (again with numbers) to lower the temperature easily 10% or more, which is again more heat dissipation than the 19% pulley has been shown to generate. Again a lot of the temperature has been show at the higher rpms, which most logically you would not want to reach with the 19% pulley.

I am not expecting to win people over with these statements, but just trying to set some of the facts straight. What is funny is that these are some of the same statements made very early on with the 15% pulley. There was concern about heat and the water pump cavitation issues, and supercharger failures. Do a search and you will find them. Even Randy was stating that there could be or were going to be some problems with the 15% pulley such as cavitation. Randy started easing up quickly as Helix's testing showed that there were no issues.

I think we just need to examine the facts more, and take comments by tuners and dealers with a bit of salt. Tuners are biased, which has it's positives and negatives. If they weren't biased we wouldn't respect them. A tuner that says "whatever" and doesn't have an opinion about anything is really not very useful. But they are human and thus have a tendency to not be 100%, 100% of the time. I think stating that someone wants to be safe and has a concern about something, is a nice statement and has a positive twist to it, but it is sometimes a cop out. If you really wanted to be safe then you would only sell K&N panel filters. Every time we drive out with our 15% pulley we are taking a chance and so is the tuner that is selling them to us.

I think in time the 19% pulley will be shown to be fine and we will see chips out for it, that not only lower the rev limit, but smooth out the throttle response, and maybe give us a little more hp in the meantime.

 

suck #1 = air
suck#2= fuel(this is really outa hand here and jeez,I didn't make it up BLAME RANDY

 

If you are under boost, then wouldn't it be proper to say "blow, squeeze, bang, blow!"

 

Wow indeed! Some thread you've started, Jock!

I'm happy with my 15% and CAI. The Intake note alone is worth 3/4hp no?

PMC's ride is awesome! The short throw is killer, the power is incredible (even with three people in the car!)

You should have seen the trail Randy left when he smoked the tires. Also, it was quite fun keeping up with his ride on that beautiful 2mile strech. The intake and Pulley has transformed my car into a beast!!!

I'm sure I'll do other mods, but I really have no desire to put a 17% or 19% on my car. I think exhaust, chip, and lighter wheels will make a world of difference.

-Ade

 

Like when I was in the legal field, just bombard the opposition with tons of documents, and let them take days to sift through it to try to make any sense of it, and hopefully they will miss something... Heck, that's how I feel now

Good morning!

There were statements, and I'm sure others can remember, that the benefits or gains felt when moving from a 15% to a 19% pulley were more than that experienced when leaving stock (to a 15). No matter where one stood on that beleif a while ago, it certainly seems that we agree that this is not the case now.

The 19% adds boost and torque compared to the 15%. There have been charts that show this across the range, which seems to indicate that the performance gain is across the entire spectrum, as with 15 vs. stock comparision. However, if this were true, there would not be a depletion of performance and higher speeds and longer durations, yet we see that. If not, the 19% would be able to maintain that edge that it enjoys and so many feel down low. This is where the inefficiencies are coming into play.

The 19%, gets its power by activating the SC quicker than a 15%. And the 15% does the same in relation to stock. Because of this, the SC will be working sooner and harder (about a couple more pounds of boost over the 15%).

The hotter charged air of a 19% will need better cooling to make the boost worthwhile. The petering-out seen when pushed to those limits reveals that this solution is not perfected for race applications.

I too think highly of Randy. Along with that, and having run a couple small businesses before, I don't want to speculate on his costs and profit margins as I'm totally clueless on such, and assuming is something I'd rather not do when speaking of one's business in detail. While a 15% and ECU is more expensive than only a 19%, given the concerns of the later, the 19% comes with caveats. Maybe the answer will be indeed to mkt it with an upgraded IC, or his cool FMIC! Obvisouly then the costs change for the 19% solution, but that is not the main focus here. The air is hotter, but so is the SC itself by virtue of packing that air at a higher rate. Even if the air is finally cooled ideally, I believe that Randy has concerns about how the SC will cope with added heat/stress over the long haul. The repsonsibility of providing a solution to the masses entails such concern, and I think many appreciate that. Also adding heat is that the belt has more wrap or friction points, and quite possibly the compounded heat situation is what's making more those belt situations. As a vendor/tuner, it's hard to sell something with full-confidence until these are not issues. I can't imagine Randy selling a 19% "package" stating not to drive in under certain situations or with certain limitations. He would need to assume that some will push their cars to their absolute limts, and if so, he knows that this is not a refined answer, and it might not ever be, time will tell...

As it stands now, the 15% is a working solution that has been validated by JCW and other shops selling like-size pullies. I think when the data is conclusive that a 19% outperforms a 15 in many to all aspects of performance driving, then the lure will escalate. I don't expect the 19% to beat-out a 15% at the track where triple digit speeds are the norm, at least not yet. But, for starters, I think many of us would love to see some 19% domination at the drag strip. There's a clear difference of stock and 15% at the strip. Given that this is not a high speed endurance affair, grabbing this distinction would be a big plus is showing it's added power, ableit in a non MINI-esque way.

For some of us, the 19% provides what we want now, and that is good. I'm truly happy for those folks. For others, and their peformance driving aspiriations/needs, they see something else as a better solution now...

I'm spending way too much time here! I've shared what I feel to be relevant, and I can't imagine adding anything further. I'm out. See ya in other threads!

 

Hey Bisch,

Randy did quote "Suck Squeeze Bang Blow", and while I think you are more accurate, your sequence would give too many "Blows".....

Man, I can't believe I said that....
What am I thinking ....

BB

 

[QUOTE=TonyB] However, if this were true, there would not be a depletion of performance and higher speeds and longer durations, yet we see that. If not, the 19% would be able to maintain that edge that it enjoys and so many feel down low. This is where the inefficiencies are coming into play.

QUOTE]

OMG! You are saying this again? Where is this depletion of performance? Where are these horribly inefficiencies? Where? Where? Sure the IAT's go up a bit, but how are you saying it is enough to negate the additional boost pressure? Please. Someone, for the love of all that is Holy, please present to us some data that will make us shut up.

Fact: 19% belts have broken on the track.
Fact: 15% belts have broken on the track.
Fact: those 19% belts were pushing very high rpm's (maybe too high)
Fact: they were NAPA and/or Gates belts.
Fact: a larger IC may help the 19%, but is not absolutely needed.
Fact: much time in development is going into ECU tuning for the 19%, for good reason (it is a viable solution for dominant power)
Fact: the 15% is a safe solution for most owners
Fact: the 19% has proven to be just as safe as the 15% (no failures)

 

Well, actually, if you are in boost, the superscharger "blows" air into the cylinder instead of sucking. Thus...blow,squeeze,bang,blow.

Under non-boost conditions (most driving), it would be suck, squeeze, bang, blow.

And, if you have the irradic idle issue, it is "suck, spit, squeeze, sputter, bang, cough"

 

There is more than enough meat here for the carnivores devouring this thread. I would thank everyone for voicing their opinons and their reasoning. Myself, I think it comes down to a matter of how you like your cars to drive.

For me, it was a no-brainer to buy an 'S' over the Cooper once I took a test drive. The 'S' package is well worth the additional $3000 or so dollars over the Cooper. I would have purchased it just for the transmission alone. It is, in fact, a bargin, and probably the best in the whole option list.
While shopping for the Mini, I had a chance to see one run at Buttonwillow raceway. It was not an 'S', but it also wasn't fast. So, I expected to see more from the 'S' once they became available. I was initially very pleased with the stock package, but I did feel that the car lacked the torque needed to make it a good street car. I went with the 19% pulley, which was my only mod until recently. Stock exhaust, stock air intake, still on run-flats! The 19% did the trick for me. I continue to look for more drivablity and power delivery enhancing modifications, just to round out the package. If you ran a racetrack only, your needs would differ from the street only application. I like the added torque lower in the rev range. It sure makes a nicer street car. I know the 15% would also do that, but I can sum up my choice: "No guts, no glory"

 

 

Just wanted to address this small point and stay out of the rest of it. I know you have never been to a pulley party, but I talk quite a bit about why I make the decisions I do, and I discuss why you definitely do not need to get the ECU with a pulley. I also discuss why I believe the 15% pulley is a safer option. I don't want to worry about losing a perfect streak of reliability from pulley installs to belt failures or supercharger issues, period. It has nothing to do with profit - honestly. If that were the case, I would push the 19%, and push the intercooler as a must have to combat the increases in inlet temp, and I could say - even though it isn't true - that I have an effective ECU solution for a 19%.

Just my two cents

Randy