Drivetrain (Cooper S) MINI Cooper S (R56) intakes, exhausts, pulleys, headers, throttle bodies, and any other modifications to the Cooper S drivetrain.

Drivetrain cold side tubing mod..

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Old 03-02-2015, 07:52 AM
ridinDirty
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cold side tubing mod..

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Okay, first off for all those that would not order a certain inter cooler cause you would have to use a dermal to trim off some plastic you might want to hit the X at the top right corner cause there is some trimming,cutting,welding to follow…….
 
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:56 AM
ridinDirty
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cold side tubing mod..-img_6245.jpg
 
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:03 AM
ridinDirty
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Okay now that that is taken care of let’s move on to the good stuff… We have all looked at that plastic tube on the cold side between the intercooler outlet and the manifold. Yes there is aftermarket after the tube to get rid of the noise marker and clean that area up. Does it really help performance… I don’t know, I’m sure to some effect because you get rid of that “T” and that has to help the flow path, but it does not increase flow at all. The back plastic has a nasty pinch in the tube right by the motor mount coming between the factory support and the mount. This is the smallest diameter of the tubing and that dictates the amount of flow. You could put a 6” pipe after that pinch and you will still only get the same amount of flow. I know flow vs pressure the flow will change but that pinch will only flow that much no matter what you do down stream of it. It’s an orifice plate basically.
I had a game plan and ordered parts, well once I started getting things out my way and trying to figure out how to run the tubing things change. I also started to learn other ways and now have another idea that might not require as much fabrication but will cost more in the long run if this would be offered in a kit form.

cold side tubing mod..-img_6213.jpg
 
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:21 AM
ridinDirty
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I was worried I might be creating some turbo lag as well due to the volume being close to double between the cooler and intake manifold. ( I didn’t have time but I’m going to fill the stock tubing up with water and measure and then my custom tubing and see what the difference is )…. Well I was wrong…
After I did a light cruise and checking things over I went for a blast pass. I’m running DNA stage 1, M7 AGS intake, IP coils, muffler delete intake and stock exhaust. Most of the time I see 17 psi WOT , well my first blast pass I saw 19.5 PSI for a hot second then it pulled back to 18 flat. I have never seen that before, Not sure if it increased my speed of flow so much that the ECU didn’t have time to catch it or why t it did that.?!?!?!?! The next time I saw a higher number was the next morning heading to EuroTech in Phx with the car loaded down with all my goodies, I saw 20 PSI.
The next odd thing I noticed was on my trip to EuroTech, just cruising and enjoying some music I started looking at my scan gauge and notice my IAT temp, normally I see my car between 6-11 degrees above ambient temp. Well at 55 in 6th gear, flat land for at least a mile I was at 2 degrees above ambient temp…wow stock cooler guys. So then I started to play at 70 – it was around 3-4 at 90 it was 4-5. I have never seen that before on my car. Stock intercooler and the meth kit is installed but has not been set up. (The hose is not attached to my inlet tubing)

The whole reason I wanted this upgrade is due to physics, when the hot air in the intercooler leaves the cooler the temp has been lowered, when air cools it wants to expand, with the factory tubing this does not happen. So the air expands and with the stock tubing it slows down.

I put my NM silicone 90 on the intake manifold and then my 90 on the intercooler. Next I installed my 2 90 degree aluminum tubing to help show the way.
cold side tubing mod..-img_6184.jpg

cold side tubing mod..-img_6174.jpg

cold side tubing mod..-img_6194.jpg

below you can see the factory crimped tubing
cold side tubing mod..-img_6197.jpg

I will not get to into it but after making a few trips to the performance shop I had my path. Okay now what to do with the support bar….. awwwwh power tools….. I cut the left side off. I tried to leave enough so I could get that one bolt in the insert of the plastic but there is not enough room.

cold side tubing mod..-img_6176.jpg


cold side tubing mod..-img_6179.jpg

I added a bracket to the front bumper stud and used that for a welding point. I wanted to make it easy to remove the support still. The one mod I did not like but what are you going to do is the headlight tab. Oh well it’s got to go. I made a new support for it.

cold side tubing mod..-img_6209.jpg

cold side tubing mod..-img_6211.jpg

below I bead rolled the ends to keep the hoses from slipping off

cold side tubing mod..-img_6235.jpg

cold side tubing mod..-img_6238.jpg

I think with what I learned I could come up with a few more ways to do this. The main thing I would like to accomplish would be to make it so it’s a bolt on. Not have to cut the factory support which in turn you would not have to cut the headlight.
I’m heading back to EuroTech in 3-4 weeks to get the car with all my goodies bolted on and I will put Stage 2 in the car and drive home. I don’t think I will have enough time but the next time I get off work I’m heading straight to the dyno and putting the stock tubing back and for 2-3 pulls and then My mod tubing for 2-3 pulls and see what they dyno says. If you look at aftermarket “racing” type intercoolers most of them have a ½’ bigger outlet size. This is due to the cooler air wanting to expand… I hope to see some good numbers…….
 
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Old 03-02-2015, 12:53 PM
TazMinianDevil
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I like the results. I have a somewhat cruder setup. I'd love to see another commercially available option.
 
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Old 03-02-2015, 02:33 PM
ridinDirty
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Well a vendor was asking me about it.... who knows. I see a way of making it happen, just take some time to test it

Thanks for the response......
 
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Old 03-02-2015, 05:36 PM
minivinnie92
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This mod looks great and by the sound of it performs great

Find away to keep me from cutting into my car and I'll buy one!
 
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:17 AM
v10climber
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Originally Posted by ridinDirty View Post
If you look at aftermarket “racing” type intercoolers most of them have a ½’ bigger outlet size. This is due to the cooler air wanting to expand… I hope to see some good numbers…….
I've not typically seen intercoolers with larger outlets. The ones I've seen typically have the same inlet/outlet size but that doesn't mean there aren't applications where the outlet is larger. Also, cooler air does not expand. Cooler air is more dense than hot air. And as air heats up it expands. When air cools down it contracts/condenses.

It's always cool to see people trying new things. I like that you bead-rolled the intake tubing to keep the silicone piping from blowing off. Great attention to detail that lots of people don't think about until they keep blowing boost tubes. I'd be curious to see dyno results.
 
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Old 03-03-2015, 07:41 AM
whrisk
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i would be interested in this too. hopefully you get some gains and it can be a proven power adder.
 
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:01 AM
ridinDirty
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V10climber - yes you are correct, Not sure how to edit yet...lol my mind was thinking something and I was typing something else . My thoughts are the denser the air(colder) the molecules are tighter together and not expanding but they are slowing down.. the smoother and bigger uniformed piping should help that slower moving air....
I have only played with a big turbo with a drag racing setup, that's where I see a lot of custom and aftermarket intercoolers with bigger outlets
Thanks for the comments, I bought that die to roll the end of the tubing 6 mths ago just for this project. I just don't have the time at home like I use to... more to come I hope..
I have never put together a write up so it was kind of fun.
Give me 3-5 weeks and I should get back home and get on a dyno, I'm very curious as well... thanks again
 
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Old 03-03-2015, 01:51 PM
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One of the mistakes I made was to not leave enough flexibility in the hoses between intake manifold and the "rigid" piping. As a result, the hoses kept coming loose with the engine rolling under hard acceleration and high boost. Even with bead-rolled tubing. Recent addition of Colin's VT lower engine mount, "hump" hoses, and removing one "rigid" pipe mounting screw (the one closest to the MAP sensor), should help --- time will tell.

I really like the idea of replacing this "rigid" pipe. Be sure to post both dyno charts, to prove / disprove your "butt dyno" results. And, leave room for engine rolling.
 
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Old 03-03-2015, 02:12 PM
ridinDirty
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When I was making the connection to the manifold I could move the hard 90 going down to the manifold all the way to the fire wall and then to the head, seams like there is enough slack/movement . I know the bottom 90 will take all the abuse , its a 7 ply silicone 90..... time will tell....lol plus I'm on stage 1..... for now...lol
I do have a Vibra-Technics lower mount being installed with the rest of my goodies.
I'm looking forward to the dyno as well, Having seen the IAT readings alone has me feeling good about it.....
 
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:06 PM
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Wiggens Clamps..... They won't pop off, and can flex some..
 
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Old 03-05-2015, 01:46 PM
ridinDirty
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yeah those look nice, pricey and more fab work. If I start blowing hoses I might get those. Right now the T-Bolts are holding up....lolol
 
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Old 03-05-2015, 03:39 PM
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You didn't happen to log MAF before and after?

This mod is really cool and I've been wanting to do a mod like this but I'm trying to figure out why you are experiencing higher boost pressures. I would have expected your boost pressures to be lower. Your piping is now less restrictive which leads to lower pressure drop. If everything else is the same you should now be able to make the same power (i.e. flow the same amount of air) with lower pressure. I just don't know how your tune works.
 
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Old 03-05-2015, 05:47 PM
ridinDirty
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cerenkov= Thanks for chiming in. Yes I have before log files---but--- It would not be fair to compare them as it was different weather, plus I dropped it off at EuroTech in Az to put my other mods on. So when I get it back I'm going to install the stock tube and data long, grab some dyno time and see what I get. Then swap out the stock for the new and do dyno, then data log for a day or two . That way nothing will or has changed.
problem is this will prob take place mid May


well I have thought some and its still up in the air...
A; turbine load was reduced so manifold pressure went up
less pressure drop in the system
15 psi out the turbo and in the cooler
14 psi out the cooler and heading towards the manifold
13 psi across the pinch point of the stock tubing by the head to the manifold
all happening at 6000 rpm
now the stock tubing drop is gone , the turbo works the same but the manifold see's more pressure (14 psi ). possible seeing the same but at 5700 now... giving me more to 6000
Less DP less drop
?????????????????

B; ECU, ( basing my knowledge of a 92 mustang ECU) there is a table,
- gas peddle goes to 100%
- injectors pulse
- timing comes in or out
-boost comes on and monitors how much based on x y z and adjust as it has normally has been doing... boost takes a few - slow
well no more restriction, here it comes... oh sh*t the table isn't fast enough - we went over- pull back- pull back to late - okay we got it now....
??????????????????

C; IAT- since it seams my temps dropped its throwing more at it
??????????????????????

I have DNA stage 1 as far as tune. It is very box tune (safe) . my timing stays at 0 when my foot is in it. I ask them about it and they said they could tune it but why waste the time since I was going to stage 2/3. well that's another story...

okay before anyone jumps on me ALL of the above are just thoughts.... I'm by no means an ECU guy..., feel free to voice your thoughts..... I do feel like A theory is very plausible
 
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Old 05-26-2015, 07:00 PM
ridinDirty
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cerenkov - I just finished my out of town project and was going to dyno test the piping. I had talked with Mario about the piping mod I made a few months back and looks like him and JMTurbo now offer the piping but in 2.25" and not cutting the hood latch braket. I had mention to Mario if you made a differnt motor mount you could snake the 2.5" under there but I don't see any mention of a new motor mount. Not sure if it still has a pinch or not to get around the motor mount but, they claim 20 hp with their DP pipe so I guess if its good enough for them to make and sell it must be doing something....
 
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Old 05-27-2015, 03:40 AM
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"We have seen 20hp when the JMTC crystal ICI pipe was installed with our 3” catted downpipe."


Sounds like the 20hp gains are coming from the pipe AND the cat.


I'd expect the pipe to give slightly lower intake temps by the turbo not working as hard.
 
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Old 05-29-2015, 09:30 AM
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correct, I said " They claim 20 hp WITH their DP pipe"......

not sure why they can't tell what the hp gain is with one or the other....... guess its marketing to sell more parts....
 
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Old 05-29-2015, 04:26 PM
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I would like to see better pictures of the cold tube than the one on the website. Some before and after data logs and/or dyno with just the cold tube would be nice also. The one with the DP and tube is meaningless since you can't differentiate which causes what.
 
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Old 06-01-2015, 08:14 AM
ridinDirty
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I agree with you on seeing each one separately.
I met with OldBrokenWindow this weekend at AMVIV in Vegas . I'm going to give him my setup for cost of what I have in it . He has a built motor and bigger turbo but he has some data logs he will be able to compare before and after.
I think I will put mine back to stock and data log and dyno then put my new system back in.
Maybe we can come up with a means of saying it's worth it or not
 
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Old 06-01-2015, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cerenkov View Post
I would like to see better pictures of the cold tube than the one on the website. Some before and after data logs and/or dyno with just the cold tube would be nice also. The one with the DP and tube is meaningless since you can't differentiate which causes what.
AccessPort has a pretty good datalog capability. I'll need to know which parameters you want to compare. Frankly, I don't think any of the OBD data is useful for comparing this cold side tube replacement, but I'm willing to try.

Originally Posted by ridinDirty View Post
I agree with you on seeing each one separately.
I met with OldBrokenWindow (Gotta love "word completion" apps) this weekend at AMVIV in Vegas . I'm going to give him my setup for cost of what I have in it . He has a built motor and bigger turbo but he has some data logs he will be able to compare before and after.
I think I will put mine back to stock and data log and dyno then put my new system back in.
Maybe we can come up with a means of saying it's worth it or not
Dyno comparison would be the most meaningful, but considering dyno repeatability errors and the 20HP expected change, how much is this knowledge worth? I'd rather just improve the flow and be happy knowing it's better than OEM.
 
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Old 06-01-2015, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbrokenwind View Post
AccessPort has a pretty good datalog capability. I'll need to know which parameters you want to compare. Frankly, I don't think any of the OBD data is useful for comparing this cold side tube replacement, but I'm willing to try.
Good question. I'm thinking that the larger tube would cause less resistance would which equates to lower boost pressures to move the same amount of air. So, if my thinking is correct than keeping boost constant would equate to larger mass air flow or the more likely scenario would be keeping mass air flow constant which equates to lower boost pressures.

This assumes everything else is keep constant...same road, same temperatures, etc.
 
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cerenkov View Post
Good question. I'm thinking that the larger tube would cause less resistance would which equates to lower boost pressures to move the same amount of air. So, if my thinking is correct than keeping boost constant would equate to larger mass air flow or the more likely scenario would be keeping mass air flow constant which equates to lower boost pressures.

This assumes everything else is keep constant...same road, same temperatures, etc.
OK, so when the time comes, I can log MAF and boost. The problem I see will be keeping either of these two variables constant --- positive boost causes pretty much everything else to also increase, and trying to control MAF to measure boost, having never tried it, seems very difficult. Maybe if I lower max boost to 15PSI or so (default wastegate setting by removing my manual boost controller), then "punch it" to get 15 for as long as safely / legally possible, I can create a short log. AP makes 3 - 5 entries per second, depending on how many variables are being logged. I'm open for other suggestions.

There will probably be a one day delay between the two runs, I'm slow when working in a hot engine bay. Fortunately, weather and traffic here is pretty consistent.

I'll post it in this thread, but don't look for it soon.
 
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Old 06-01-2015, 05:42 PM
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It will be tricky getting good data. I have a feeling that it will be inconclusive, but you never know.
 

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