Being a R53 owner, I'm not sure you know the complexity of the R56 ECU with larger turbos, the difficulty in fabricating up a Garrett turbo in such a tight space and what actual benefit you'd get (before grenading the engine) vs. a Hybrid turbo in the stock housing that is already mega-powerful for the R56.

 

well hey its not really "best practice" to put a larger turbo on or run more boost on a stock motor. IMO OP should build his block before going this route because that will be the safest thing to do. Im just curious why not just turn up the boost ? i know there is a max airflow/min for every turbo so why not just max out the current turbo instead of looking to upgrade ?

 

What PSI did you have in mind? The stock ECU cuts out at 21-22PSI., and there is no aftermarket ECU offering at this time. There's a difference between "install a Garrett 3076" and "just max out the current turbo."

Even if you build the block you wouldn't get much out of it with the larger turbo and the ECU boost limitations (though the larger turbo will flow more CFMs).

At this time I have seen no proof (dyno chart) or build thread where someone successfully installed a JCW or hybrid turbo on a Mini Cooper S without a maximum boost cut or a boost cut at lower RPMs where the stock ECU is expecting a certain amount of PSI by a certain RPM but doesn't get it because the bigger turbo spools slower and it freaks out. I am waiting for a few folks on this forum and their build threads to see if their tuner has some knowledge others do not to overcome the stock ECU limitations. Thus far it's been a lot of dead ends with folks installing turbos larger than the stock one for the MCS.

 

You are saying the ecu cuts out at 21-22lbs....is that 21-22psi OR 21-22lbs/min of airflow ?

There is a big difference because 21psi in the stock turbo is different than 21psi in a bigger one.

 

PSI, "lbs." was PSI implied by the sentence before it. I'll modify my post. thx.

 

No problem. Yea so in that case op can run a bigger turbo but will have to limit boost to something below that ecu imposed max psi limit....

My suggestion was for the op IF he wanted to make decent power (mid 300hp). But to go to a bigger turbo the op would need the turbo obviously, wastegate, boost controller, bigger fuel injectors ( 550-650cc should be fine), bigger fuelpump, colder sparkplugs)

But if thats not what he wants then i would just max out the current setup and go from there.

 

I'm not sure there is a large difference in the case of the MCS turbo in PSI vs. lbs/min:

21.8LB/min

http://www.minitorque.com/forum/f13/...bo-info-31198/

 

damn, that sucks 21.8lb/min ~ 200 hp

 

I still don't see the need for a Garrett turbo for applications over 300HP when apparently there are hybrid options that get you well over 300HP already: http://www.jmturbocoopers.com/Peugeo...o-Upgrade.html

(The question is still, can anyone tune for it)

And with these motors being direct injection, I have not heard talk of upgraded injectors at this time. Not sure if that is because they have plenty of capacity to flow more or because there isn't a market for them. But the 550-650 injectors that work with the R53 engine would not apply here. Same goes with the fuel pump, on the R56 it is a high pressure fuel pump.

 

I see, well with a smaller turbo you need to run more boost to make flow a certain amount of lb/min of air where with a larger you dont need to run as much boost to flow the same amount of air.

For example (these are not real figures but just to give you an idea)
turbo1: at 20psi it flows 22lb/min
turbo2: at 15psi it flows 22lb/min

Now the benefit is when it comes to heat and spool. When you compress air it becomes hot so the higher psi = the hotter the air will be thus requiring you to either have a larger intercooler or run the car on a "richer" tune to prevent against detonation.

The other benefit which i think is more important, on a fwd car you want to be in full boost a little later on in the RPM range because you want to be able to have traction...

Its all about preference honestly. I prefer to have full boost later on in the RPM band.

 

I agree about heat, CFMs, larger vs. smaller turbos, but was just trying to make sure anyone watching this thread wasn't provided information that would lead them down a dead end.

 

Because that turbo is way toooo big.

You were joking, right?

 

I dont think its too big, honestly i think its OK. Big would be a 35r..

 

Ok. Agree to very disagree. That turbo would have so much lag it would undriveable, not to mention the problems with boost controllers and tuning on these cars.

It's easy to say "put on a huge turbo and make big numbers". When you've done it (on an R56!), let us know.

And even for an R53, why bother when there are better ways to make the power?

 

Like i said before, why do you want to spool early in a fwd car ? you will have no traction....

 

I agree, tons of power from 0 MPH will just spin your tires, but 4500+ will extremely laggy for most MINI owners used to spooling at 1800 RPM.

 

I guess :\

But when it kicks in, it KICKS IN!

 

The manifolds below and above are a Gen 2 JCW and a Gen 3 N18 MCS. what you are calling a stage 3 manifold is a JMTC fully ported Gen 3 MCS manifold. We personally do not like the Gen 2 JCW manifold, because if ported the Gen 3 is actually larger with greater volume, all parts are a more uniform size, and there are no restrictions in some of the ports like on the Gen 2.
Maybe if you are not going to port the manifold the G2 might flow better since surface is smoother however once it is ported the G3 will flow better. below are our observations, I would encourage anyone to look at them yourself, one of our customers actually did that and said this about the Gen 2 JCW manifold “.... OEM JCW header and it looks like the clogged arteries of a 80year old man!”
In theory the G2 looks great and I like the logic behind the shape of the ports, but in actuality they really messed up and put some strange restrictions in Port 2 and 3 after the air combines, port 1 is huge with no restrictions until it combines with port 4, port 4 is restricted but larger than the combination of port 2 and 3, and the air direction for port 3 is mind boggling.
Port 3 vents right into a wall and there is no contouring like on the G3. On the G3 Port 3 has a foil to direct the air and the port is contoured to direct the air earlier into a larger port than the G2 as if flows into the top of the turbo. So the air venting from piston 3 has less of a wall to hit as it vents
from port 3. Anyway below are some pictures with explanations and data on the size and volume of the ports.


Below is a comparison between a JMTC fully ported Gen2 JCW manifold and a JMTC fully ported GEN3 MCS (N18) manifold
Port Volume
G2 Ports ¼, 255ml
G2 Ports 2/3, 129ml
G3 Ports ¼, 265ml
G3 Ports 2/3, 160ml

G3 % larger than G2
Port ¼, 3.77%
Ports 2/3, 19.38%

% Volume matched ports volume 2+3/1+4
G2 50%
G3 60%

Visual
G2

• Inconsistent sized ports
• Port 1, huge port
• Port 4, small port with strange restrictions
• Port 2 good size until joining with port 3, then restricted to almost half the size (smallest port of all) with multiple strange angles created by port 1.
• Port 3, air flows right into flat wall then enters a restricted port with multiple strange angles created by port 1.
• Flange very thin cant port out for larger turbos

G3

• Every port is consistently sized.
• Port 1, consistently sized
• Port 2. consistently sized
• Port 3, consistently sized but also vents into a wall, however the wall has a directional flow, the exit port opens sooner, and air foil to direct the flow of the air into a lager exit port than the G2.
• Port 4 consistently sized much larger than the G2
• Large heavy flange can be ported for a larger turbocharger

Note, the dimensions below are the smallest size of the ports

 

I'm highjacking the thread but can you give some information on the ceramic coatings for the manifolds and such. TIA

 

I believe I've read that Evolve tuned an S using a JCW turbo running 23-24psi without boost cut and it produced 270-290 HP on stock internals, they tried a hybrid but found the JCW turbo worked better. So if that is the HP your aiming for its properly the cheapest option and far lest complex.

 

Thanks for the extra details and clarification JM Turbos, I can see where you are coming from.

I am sooooo rooting for a few individuals here with your hybrid turbos to have their builds go well. (I'm too chicken to pull the trigger just yet, haha).

I'd love to obtain feedback (do they go to limp mode when building boost from low RPMs?) from them as well as dyno charts of their successes. If you have any dyno charts yourself or if there are forum members here who can give us feedback we'd love to see / hear from them if you have a chance. Thanks.

 

Evolve did state they could tune a JCW to me over the phone, but they did not reference boost pressure (which would still be fine if they were stuck at 21PSI, I just want something that works) and I have not found anyone on forums to back that up. Do you have a thread we can reference?

 

Sorry I don't have a link to their build thread but I'm pretty sure its archived on one of the MINI forums, found it when I was researching before I got my tune. The point I was trying to make is you don't have to go ape sh?t on after market parts. Contact Evolve and tell them what you want and they'll tell you what mods to make to support that tune. It not like companies like APR that say if you don't buy our hardware we won't sell you our software.

 

I was never able to verify Evolve's statement over the phone in a forum (G_d knows I've looked haha). Evolve seem like standup guys, but I was hoping for independent verification. I agree, for longevity's sake, I won't be running some massive turbo flowing a ton of air and cylinder pressures.

 

Oh ok didn't realise you have JCW, they can remap that to 270hp without additional bolt ons, check the UK site forget the US one.