One thing I didn't see on anyone's list was headers. Are they just a cosmetic change, or are there any real gains there? I liked the look of the Milltek ones.

Doug

 

As I had a bit of time on my hands tonight I thought I would chime in on one topic on the list, Front upper strut brace :smile: How in the world can you say it DOESN"T work ? I have used 4 in the past and 3 of them showed dramatic improvment?Have you people actually tried them or are you just repeating rumors? Perhaps it is because of the KW coil overs and the car is lowered about 1 3/4 inches front and rear but the differance with the proper strut tower brace is night and day. Case in point. With my car as low as it was when i used to corner hard I would sometimes have minor contact between the tire and the rubber outer trim piece ( flare ) . It would always rub when i hit a bump while cornering hard as well. Once I started using different strut braces the rubbing was gone except for the most extreme cases such as turn 4 at WIllow Springs. Not only was the contact gone for the most part but turn in was dramaticly increased as well as being able to hold a smooth line thru the entire turn . How you all can sit there and say they don't work is beyond me. I can only think that you arent pushing the car hard enough to see just how much flex it really has . I originally bought the stiff body propaganda from BMW and never would have bought one but when one was sent to me to try i gave it a shot. Now I wouldnt venture into the cyn or on a track without one. If you are in the so cal area look me up and ill disconnect it and show you personally the differance. Some things on that list such as the plasma booster or ignition upgrades are hard to prove who is rite and who is wrong but there is no question with the front strut tower brace. And for those of you looking for a motive for me supporting this there isn't one other than it works . NO I don't make them either LOL

Randy
Team M7




_________________
Hamman hm3 17/8 /,BfGoodricxh 215/40 kdw-2,M7 Plasma Booster ,M7 /Venom Nitrous syst,s,H-sport adj camber plates, BMP strut tower 'boost and oil pressure gauge pkg, Piper cross viper intake system, KW coil over shock,

 

maxmini,

Why haven't the strut brace manufacturers produced one shred of evidence that the brace does ANYTHING? It would be laughably cheap and easy to test - using a pair of rulers and a pencil.

Check out this thread:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=hi...com&rnum=1

 

That thread helps make that decision....

 

Its the other way around for me. You have to show me why my car rubbs in the corners and won't hold turn 3 at willow when itake it off :smile: All the numbers you can find wont match up to actual experience. As I said before anyone is welcome to come take a ride and I'll prove it to you EASILY.

 

as someone noticed - header is noticeably absent from my list...

am I missing something, or is skipping that well thought out?

 

Hi Andy......

Do you have a strut tower brace on your car/ ever had one? the answer is propably no and never.......

I think you should prove us wrong, as Randy (maxmini) said we do not manufacture one, but use them
religiously on all our cars (3 Minis).

Did you see what tire size this guy was using ( BFG Comp T/A HR4 185-60 R14's ) 60 profile tires no wonder he got
such a small deflection. Most of us use 40-45 profile tires with a wider 205-225 stance, and to top it of thicker swaybars front and rear. So if it's so easy to prove that there is no deflection prove it to us Andy instead of gueasing...

>>>>>>>>>SHOW US YOUR NUMBERS ANDY<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<

Peter

 

I had a front strut tower brace on my '97 GTI.

I'm glad you like your front strut tower brace, but that doesn't mean it does anything. The onus of proof is on he who asserts the positive.
_________________
SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!

...How Fast is Your MINI?...My Mods...

 

>>as someone noticed - header is noticeably absent from my list...
>>
>>am I missing something, or is skipping that well thought out?
No you are not missing out on anything by skipping the exhaust header. The milltek or London stainless header is the most popular design but it is pricey at $900 for the limited benefit. Dyno testing has not revealed much positive gain and varies from no gain to 5-7 HP depending on who is doing the testing. Most of the power gains will be in the mid to high range rpm so if you never drive above 4500 rpm it may not be the mod you are after.

In that price range I think the cat-back exhaust alone is a good place to start and the two you were looking at- the Milltek and the Borla Race or Sport are both good and will not clash with a header if you so choose to go that route in the future.

A word about tower strut bars- as this is an ongoing debate as you can see. I have a BMP strut tower brace and plan to keep it. I have aftermarket rims and ES100 215/45-17 tires and a separate set of autocross wheels with Kumho V700 tires. I do not drive fast enough or hard enough to really feel the difference if any my strut bar makes. Perhaps someday I will have that kind of skill. I do believe that with this bracing I can reduce the metal fatigue on my front end over time and keep some of the rigidity that the MINI has. It's like having an extra heavy door frame and kids that like to slam that door now and then.

I know that Maxmini and M7 are firm believers in the merits of the strut bar. I think if you have a race set up and have a track with high speeds and nice turns you could make use of it. I have talked to Randy Webb and Eric Savage about the merits of a strut bar. For the average driver or the begineer autocross participant it would not be one of the first mods to do nor one that will trim a whole lot of time off of a run.

The bottomline is that there are always more and more mods one can do but you can start with the basics and take it from there.

Don't underestimate driver skill. A very experienced driver in a stock MCS will blow you away like you are standing still in your modded MINI. Just take your MINI to the track and ask one of the better instructors to take you out for a spin. Then watch as your eyes will bulge.

 

maxmini wrote:
I'd love to take you up on that offer, but I'm on the other side of the country. Would you be receptive to measuring the deflection that you get with your bar and without? What exactly "rubbs in the corners"? And your car sticks to the track rather than flying off into the gravel on turn 3, simply due to the presence or absence of a strut tie bar?

 

>>I had a front strut tower brace on my '97 GTI.
>>
>>I'm glad you like your front strut tower brace, but that doesn't mean it does anything. The onus of proof is on he who asserts the positive.

Why is that Andy...

If you are an athority in Mini tuning here on NAM, and people listen to you for advice, which is negative in this case
you should be able to prove your point...which you can't.There's not a shread of evidence that shows you have any proof
negative or positive.

Bottom line, it's all theory that's based on what? " Show us your numbers Andy"

peter

 

M7,

I don't claim to be "an athority in Mini tuning here on NAM". I'm not an athority on anything.

The only people claiming that the front strut brace does anything are the same people who claim the M7 plasma booster makes the car smoother, and faster, etc. If you'll take the time to actually read rather than lashing out, you'll see me offering to maxmini to help him MEASURE this deflection that he speaks of.

BTW, speaking of showing numbers, did you ever pay your gambling debt to the STi driver?

_________________
SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!

...How Fast is Your MINI?...My Mods...

 

"I'm not an athority on anything."

That's right Andy your not, but you come of as one......



>>BTW, speaking of showing numbers, did you ever pay your gambling debt to the STi driver?<<

Why don't you call him, if you are so damn curious (is this suppose to be a personal attack....Andy).

peter

 

M7,

You crack me up.

Anyway, back on topic:

sdanaher,

People have posted some wildly differing results from various headers. Some have shown no power gains while others have gotten very healthy gains. It may be a case of different combinations of mods yielding different gains on different cars.

 

Best bang for the buck Driving School. Call Jim Russel, The Mid Ohio School, Boundurant et al.
If you can't go fast with 90 hp 900 won't help you.

 

Sway bars vs stress bars .... enlighten me. With so much lively "discussion" over front stress bars, I haven't seen mention about the rear stress bar that fits behind the seats. Dealer who sells it swears by it of course. But then there is an adjustable rear sway bar. What is the diff between sway and stress in turns? Do I need the both?

And also while creating a list, I thought I needed a Shark Injector if I added pulley, cat-back, and intake.

Finally. If you install the lowering spring kit, the stress bar is better .... is that what I deciphered out of all this? AND new firmer shocks?

This is exactly my problem. I had a list and then when I read stuff here it just grows and then I'm back to not knowing where to start. What would you rate the possibility of warranty issues poping up with a pulley at the first 10K service check? Seems that it depends of **** dealers, am I right? .... darn .... and if I get the pulley first, doesn't it change the fuel burn if you don't change the dyno via a shark? ..... I was going to start another thread, but this one is too good to pass up.

 

>>maxmini wrote:
>>>>
>>I'd love to take you up on that offer, but I'm on the other side of the country. Would you be receptive to measuring the deflection that you get with your bar and without? What exactly "rubbs in the corners"? And your car sticks to the track rather than flying off into the gravel on turn 3, simply due to the presence or absence of a strut tie bar?

As you are on the other side of the country I agree it would be hard for you to make the trip. How about if you have one of your trusted associates in the L.A area take up the challenge for you. There must be somebody that believes you out here ?
As for rubbing in the corners I am referring the the melted rubber on the inside of the fender flares as well as the flares themselves. At the lower ride height i use they would rub frequently without a good strut tower brace. I mention good because of the 4 that I tried 3 worked very well and one was marginal. Which ones have you tried that have not been worthy to you?
As for my turn 3 example first I have to correct myself the turn in question is # 2.Here are the notes for that particular one. Perhaps you can see where additional stability would be necessary especially at the decreasing radius part which you hit at about 80+ in the Mini.
Turn 2
Pretty standard sweeper, basically a skidpad turn. Enter track left, stay mid track around the sweeper STAYING ON THE GAS, do NOT lift through this turn it will make your rear end light and if you're pushing it you will spin. As you start to get to the end of the sweeper start to decrease your radius and get tighter to track right, hit the apex with your right foot floored and again track out waaay left to carry speed. Immediately go track right to setup for #3.
These notes were for a rear drive car but perhaps you can get the feel for the dynamics involved. As for if I would come off at this particular turn if I did not have the brace I really don't know but I would certainly not be able to go thru at that speed or with the comfort level i have at present. This is a great place to make up time on the " big guys " by the way.
Perhaps some people like the car to flex a bit and it suits their style but it doesn't work too well for me. I spent a day at Willow Springs during the eurotuner challenge last summer and had a wonderful conversation with the designer and builder of the BMP strut tower brace. He has spent over 40 years of his life designing race car chassis and components and to be honest I had a hard time taking it all in but i did get the impression that he knew what he was doing.Do you? H-sport ( hotchkiss eng ) Forge Motorsports, BFP,Diamond Racing,Helix,Out Motoring, Moss mini,Webb Motorsports Mini Mania and on and on offer a variety of strut tower braces.They seem to think they work, you don't? Lastly there ia a little tuner in the UK that has found that the strut brace apparently has some value judging from the quote enclosed.You may have heard of them, its some JCW something or other.

"Tyres will be Dunlop DO1J 'cut slicks' on 15 inch rims, and the new car build will include the additional upgrade of a plumbed-in fire extinguisher, braided brake hoses, a suspension strut brace and uprated brakes. The cost of a brand new Challenge car including all modifications and total sporting package is just £24,995 for 2003. For this second year, a competition clutch will be optional."

2003 SPECIFICATIONS

The John Cooper Challenge Clubsport MINI Cooper race car
MINI Cooper donor car to standard showroom specification plus:
122Ps engine
Stainless steel exhaust system
Free-flow foam air filter
Engine management ECU 'flashed'
FIA roll cage
Racing seat
5-point racing harness
Electronic and fuel cut-off switches
Uprated brakes
Lowered and stiffened suspension with uprated dampers and springs
Towing eyes and bonnet straps
Dunlop 15" competition tyres
Plumbed-in fire extinguisher
Braided brake hoses
Strut brace

Now if you are correct in your assumption that the braces have no value I really think that these individuals and corporations will be crushed when they find out that they are not getting the your seal of approval and you should notify them immediately to cease and desist with all production of these bogus parts. If on the other hand these suppliers actually are rite what other products have you been misleading us about? If you are wrong about this one and it is clear that you are, then aren't you condemning the entire american way of life as we know it? I put it to you this way otter, wait sorry I was having a animal house flashback. Anyway I think you get the point and hopefully some of the others on here will learn to think for themselves and do some research rather than listen to only the loudest. Oh yes one more thing I still have nothing to gain financially by promoting this particular item I just don't want to see good things go to waste for no reason .

Randy
Team M7

I got your number :smile:

 

>>Its the other way around for me. You have to show me why my car rubbs in the corners and won't hold turn 3 at willow when itake it off :smile: All the numbers you can find wont match up to actual experience. As I said before anyone is welcome to come take a ride and I'll prove it to you EASILY.

If your car does this without a strut tower brace then something is broken.

 

maxmini,

From your hostile and heated response, I take it that means you have no interest in actually measuring the deflection that you claim is occurring? If you change your mind and would like my assistance, please let me know.

Obviously, there is a market for front strut bars. There is also a market for chrome gauge trim rings. Does that mean that the companies producing them have done any R&D on their function?

I'll give the strut bar manufacturers the benefit of the doubt. if they did actually do any such testing, why wouldn't they want to publicize it? "Our front strut bar reduces deflection by 30% and reduces camber change from 2 degrees to 1 degree under heavy cornering loads". Wouldn't that be a more convincing sales pitch than:

"The ProMini stress bar is a great addition to your Cooper or Cooper “S”. The bar is manufactured from light weight, aircraft polished aluminum, or powder-coated steel. Both bars offer maximum stiffness derived from the direct tower-to-tower design. The E.P.L. (Eccentric Pre-Loader) allows you to slightly pre-load the bar after installation."

http://www.promini.com/products/stressbar.shtml

(Nothing against BMP, but their site was the first one that came to mind).

Anyway, despite your hostile tone, I appreciate the Animal House reference and that turn at Willow Springs sounds incredibly fun ... with our without a front strut brace.

-Andy
Team Myself
_________________
SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!

...How Fast is Your MINI?...My Mods...

 

>>maxmini,
>>
>>From your hostile and heated response, I take it that means you have no interest in actually measuring the deflection that you claim is occurring? If you change your mind and would like my assistance, please let me know.
>>
>>Obviously, there is a market for front strut bars. There is also a market for chrome gauge trim rings. Does that mean that the companies producing them have done any R&D on their function?
>>
>>I'll give the strut bar manufacturers the benefit of the doubt. if they did actually do any such testing, why wouldn't they want to publicize it? "Our front strut bar reduces deflection by 30% and reduces camber change from 2 degrees to 1 degree under heavy cornering loads". Wouldn't that be a more convincing sales pitch than:
>>
>>"The ProMini stress bar is a great addition to your Cooper or Cooper “S”. The bar is manufactured from light weight, aircraft polished aluminum, or powder-coated steel. Both bars offer maximum stiffness derived from the direct tower-to-tower design. The E.P.L. (Eccentric Pre-Loader) allows you to slightly pre-load the bar after installation."
>>
>>http://www.promini.com/products/stressbar.shtml
>>
>>(Nothing against BMP, but their site was the first one that came to mind).
>>
>>Anyway, despite your hostile tone, I appreciate the Animal House reference and that turn at Willow Springs sounds incredibly fun ... with our without a front strut brace. :smile:

Randy
Team M7
todays number is 8
>>
>>...How Fast is Your MINI?...My Mods...

 

Andy.......

This is definitly a fun topic........WHY

 

M7,

I am glad that you responded. I actually enjoy being questioned and you've brought up some good points about the tires and conditions from the Mk3 Golf test. It shows you are thinking for yourself, that's a wonderful attribute.

I'm disappointed to see you continue using generalizations about people who post here. You have ASSumed I never had a front strut bar. You have ASSumed I haven't driven on real racetracks. Both of those are untrue.

In addition, you have apparently chosen to ignore my posts that disprove your conspiracy theories:

I'm sure you know how to use the search feature on this site (if not, feel free to ask for assistance if you need it). I bought a Magnaflow cat-back and did indeed do back to back dyno testing on it. I have also done lots of testing with both the stock intake an the Alta (as well as plans to do more). Don't let your ego get ahead of you and ASSUME that you have the only "company" of whose products I am skeptical. After doing some homework, please get back to me with your findings.

As for testing the FSB, it would make more sense for maxmini to do the testing. He already has an easily installable/removable BMP unit. Also, he claims significant chassis flexing with his setup and goes to Willow Springs on a semi-regular basis. Wouldn't that be better testing than if I did it? I mean, my onramps and tire aspect ratio may be throwing off the results. :smile:

- Andy
The Team of Redundancy Team
_________________
SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!

...How Fast is Your MINI?...My Mods...

 

>>Perhaps it is because of the KW coil overs and the car is lowered about 1 3/4 inches front and rear. It would always rub when i hit a bump while cornering hard as well. Once I started using different strut braces the rubbing was gone except for the most extreme cases such as turn 4 at WIllow Springs. Not only was the contact gone for the most part but turn in was dramaticly increased as well as being able to hold a smooth line thru the entire turn .<<

Hey Max -

What wheel/tire combination are you running on the track?

 

Hi blue Mcs.I tthought you might check in as I recall you don't feel the tower brace which is fine as as I mentioned earlier that some may like the way a car handles without one. I have used three brands of tires so far and one set of wheels. I finally have a set of " track " wheels and tires but haven't had the opportunity to track them as yet. I have used a set of 17/8 hamman wheels , look nice but too heavy , with falken 215/45/17 tires, Nitto 450 extreme 215/40/17 and at present BF Goodrich KDW-2 215/45/17. My track set are Volk LE 37 with 215/45/Bridgestone 215/45 Potenza RE 050. Not my choice but it is what they sent. Can't look a gift horse in the hoof so to speak. Have any thoughts as to why i have graphic proof that there is a difference? I know you have a lot of experience and perhaps you can shed some light on this. I also have KW coil coilovers on the car lowered 1 3/4 with H& R sway bars front and rear, adjustable lower camber arms and H-sport front camber plates if that helps at all.
Now for my good buddy andrew. I feel better knowing that you have tried and tested the front strut brace which you said you had? Which one was it , what was the method that you tested it and what were your numbers that decided that the item doesn't work. You are positive that it doesnt work , why ? And if you have this information why haven't you shared it with the masses insted of saying that it just doesnt work. That is just the same as someone saying something does work and doesnt give you the numericle proof that it does. andrew show us your numbers :smile: Its nice to be home :smile:

BTW I am using the Pipercross Viper CIA at present but i would still do the testing.

 

maxmini wrote: Thanks for asking rather than ASSuming like your team leader. I had a Neuspeed front strut brace on my '97 GTI. I doubt it did much of anything (identical vehicle to the one tested in that old newsgroup post) but I read that post after installing it. And I'd already drilled holes in the strut towers and installed nutserts. So, I figured I may as well leave it in there.

Please read carefully the wording that I have used when discussing the front strut brace for the MINI (words are important, you know). Then, get back to me and tell me where I said "that it just doesnt work"

-Andy
Team Logic