Drivetrain Wacky performance claims from vendors.
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Banned
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From: Plymouth, MN
I'm a bit baffled (ha ha) by all the performance claims for "cold-air" intakes.
Here's an example from some website:
Statement #1
"This revolutionary breakthrough in inlet system design delivers more horsepower and torque-throughout the entire rpm range-than any other performance air induction system."
That's typical.
Statement #2
"The AEM V2 utilizes a dual chamber (using two different diameters and lengths of piping), to create multiple frequency sound waves that help charge the cylinders with air throughout the entire rpm range. "
That sounds wacky.
Statement #3
"Unique, Titanium-look zirconia-based powder coating reduces heat soak and dnhances looks."
That sounds misleading at best and almost dishonest. (Typos are not mine in the quotes)
There seem to be several vendors of auto parts that use these grand-sounding claims and do not provide even the most minimum of evidence for performance gains.
It should be extremely simple to measure the results for statement #3 for example. Put a temperature sensor on
the outside of the pipe and on the inside of the pipe and measure the heat transfer of an un powdercoated and a powdercoated pipe and show us the numbers.
Simple as pie, but they don't provide that information.
Call me skeptical, but my physics packground tells me tht powder coating a pipe could possible reduce heat-soak (Really heat-flow), but it would be a teensy-tiny amount, and might actually INCREASE heat-flow into the intake air depending on the situation.
I think it's important to challenge these vendors and ask for test results not only showing that their product has any effect at all on the situation, but that the effect they are showing actually changes the performance of the vehicle.
We can get into a discussion abot if a 10-degree-F change in INTAKE temperature before the supercharger has any effect at all on the after-supercharger air temperatures, and if that change has any effect on the performance of the vehicle if you like. Some members of this forum actually bother to take temperature readings and post them. It's very interesting.
In the past, you have let me know that I've been too aggressive in calling the vendors to the physics table, and I will try and be as nice as I am capable of in the future while still demanding that these products meet the most basic principles of physics and common sense. I promise to do my best.
Question:
Has ANYONE measured the temperature at the supercharger intake, supercharger output and after the intercooler to show that ANY vendor makes a "cold-air" intake that can show temperature differences vs the stock intake at the inlet to the combustion chamber where it makes a difference to the performance of the engine?
_________________
Here's an example from some website:
Statement #1
"This revolutionary breakthrough in inlet system design delivers more horsepower and torque-throughout the entire rpm range-than any other performance air induction system."
That's typical.
Statement #2
"The AEM V2 utilizes a dual chamber (using two different diameters and lengths of piping), to create multiple frequency sound waves that help charge the cylinders with air throughout the entire rpm range. "
That sounds wacky.
Statement #3
"Unique, Titanium-look zirconia-based powder coating reduces heat soak and dnhances looks."
That sounds misleading at best and almost dishonest. (Typos are not mine in the quotes)
There seem to be several vendors of auto parts that use these grand-sounding claims and do not provide even the most minimum of evidence for performance gains.
It should be extremely simple to measure the results for statement #3 for example. Put a temperature sensor on
the outside of the pipe and on the inside of the pipe and measure the heat transfer of an un powdercoated and a powdercoated pipe and show us the numbers.
Simple as pie, but they don't provide that information.
Call me skeptical, but my physics packground tells me tht powder coating a pipe could possible reduce heat-soak (Really heat-flow), but it would be a teensy-tiny amount, and might actually INCREASE heat-flow into the intake air depending on the situation.
I think it's important to challenge these vendors and ask for test results not only showing that their product has any effect at all on the situation, but that the effect they are showing actually changes the performance of the vehicle.
We can get into a discussion abot if a 10-degree-F change in INTAKE temperature before the supercharger has any effect at all on the after-supercharger air temperatures, and if that change has any effect on the performance of the vehicle if you like. Some members of this forum actually bother to take temperature readings and post them. It's very interesting.
In the past, you have let me know that I've been too aggressive in calling the vendors to the physics table, and I will try and be as nice as I am capable of in the future while still demanding that these products meet the most basic principles of physics and common sense. I promise to do my best.
Question:
Has ANYONE measured the temperature at the supercharger intake, supercharger output and after the intercooler to show that ANY vendor makes a "cold-air" intake that can show temperature differences vs the stock intake at the inlet to the combustion chamber where it makes a difference to the performance of the engine?
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I'm with you Trippy in that I think the term 'cold-air-intake' is misleading.
There was a post here on MCO (sorry, on NAM) some time ago (when it was still MCO) with a spreadsheet table showing very nicley how on a charged engine you gain hardly any power by 'cooling' the intake air prior to compression. AFTER the supercharger cooling the air brings substantial power gains, but a temp reduction before compression has hardly any effects at all. On non-charged engines that's a different story.
So, most of posted (whether only claimed or true) hp gains from intakes are due to less restrictive filters.
There was a post here on MCO (sorry, on NAM) some time ago (when it was still MCO) with a spreadsheet table showing very nicley how on a charged engine you gain hardly any power by 'cooling' the intake air prior to compression. AFTER the supercharger cooling the air brings substantial power gains, but a temp reduction before compression has hardly any effects at all. On non-charged engines that's a different story.
So, most of posted (whether only claimed or true) hp gains from intakes are due to less restrictive filters.
1st Gear
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>>Statement #2
>>"The AEM V2 utilizes a dual chamber (using two different diameters and lengths of piping), to create multiple frequency sound waves that help charge the cylinders with air throughout the entire rpm range. "
>>
>>That sounds wacky.
It seems like it should be possible to create a resonance effect at some speeds that would pack the air in tighter, but I would think that would also increase the temperature (PV=NRT?? I think that's what I recall from my thermodynamics class). So if that's true, that would have to negate at least some of the "cold air" effect, if any. Plus, it seems like just about anything you might do before the supercharger/intercooler is going to be outdone by the supercharger. So even if we were able to increase the intake pressure, the supercharger is going to bring up the pressure to whatever it is supposed to pressurize to and blow off the rest.
But reduced intake resistance should help some, I would think.
I, for one, would be interested in hearing more about the physics and thermodynamics involved in these things. Superchargers and turbos are pretty complicated (not to mention internal combustion engines), and I doubt if I understand the barest essentials.
>>"The AEM V2 utilizes a dual chamber (using two different diameters and lengths of piping), to create multiple frequency sound waves that help charge the cylinders with air throughout the entire rpm range. "
>>
>>That sounds wacky.
It seems like it should be possible to create a resonance effect at some speeds that would pack the air in tighter, but I would think that would also increase the temperature (PV=NRT?? I think that's what I recall from my thermodynamics class). So if that's true, that would have to negate at least some of the "cold air" effect, if any. Plus, it seems like just about anything you might do before the supercharger/intercooler is going to be outdone by the supercharger. So even if we were able to increase the intake pressure, the supercharger is going to bring up the pressure to whatever it is supposed to pressurize to and blow off the rest.
But reduced intake resistance should help some, I would think.
I, for one, would be interested in hearing more about the physics and thermodynamics involved in these things. Superchargers and turbos are pretty complicated (not to mention internal combustion engines), and I doubt if I understand the barest essentials.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Lansdale, PA
I suspect that the cost/trouble/time of actually doing real testing is not worth it in many cases when the populace at large does not demand such data. Look at the popularity of front strut braces, for instance. I have never seen a shred of evidence to suggest that the front struts are flexing, yet thousands of such braces have been sold. If a company did actual testing of their front strut brace, they would either find:
A) It does nothing, but the people buying it don't actually care.
-or-
B) It does something, but the people buying it don't actually care.
A) It does nothing, but the people buying it don't actually care.
-or-
B) It does something, but the people buying it don't actually care.
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From: Plymouth, MN
So does anyone have a suggestion on how we can present our feelings when a vendor makes an announcement of a product that doesn't look like it passes the basic physics smell test?
Whenever I do it, I'm labeled a "vendor-hater" or some such and I get called names.
Then someone accuses me of having a personal grudge against some vendor or another.
I don't have a grudge against anyone, but I can't let the vendors post horse-pucky without calling them on it.
I do get several "good-going" messages each time I post about questionable claims, so that makes me feel better.
I'll try to be clear in my opposition when I see what I feel are bogus vendor claims, and see where that leads.
Whenever I do it, I'm labeled a "vendor-hater" or some such and I get called names.
Then someone accuses me of having a personal grudge against some vendor or another.
I don't have a grudge against anyone, but I can't let the vendors post horse-pucky without calling them on it.
I do get several "good-going" messages each time I post about questionable claims, so that makes me feel better.
I'll try to be clear in my opposition when I see what I feel are bogus vendor claims, and see where that leads.
>>In the past, you have let me know that I've been too aggressive in calling the vendors to the physics table, >>
i disagree; you haven't been too agressive. i thought your questions were always well put at first. only when you were faced with irrational, unscientific opposition did the conversation degenerate into name calling.
and they deserved every name you called them, including the infamous s*****l. keep it up!
"it's not a train robbery..........it's a science experiment."
flyboy2160
i disagree; you haven't been too agressive. i thought your questions were always well put at first. only when you were faced with irrational, unscientific opposition did the conversation degenerate into name calling.
and they deserved every name you called them, including the infamous s*****l. keep it up!
"it's not a train robbery..........it's a science experiment."
flyboy2160
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From: oh10
Companies even make crazy judgements in order to sell things as small as macaroni and cheese. Most people realize that not everything is supposed to be taken word for word. Ya...maybe "perfect" isnt the best word, but it sounds much better then if a company said "almost perfect"...so of course the company says "perfect" instead. It's sorta something that you the consumer should realize (especially after dealing with it your entire life)...
No sense in whining or complaining... try asking nicely without a negative under-tone when a vendor produces something new instead of your usual tactic of negative remarks
No sense in whining or complaining... try asking nicely without a negative under-tone when a vendor produces something new instead of your usual tactic of negative remarks
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From: Plymouth, MN
jgregga wrote:
"It seems like it should be possible to create a resonance effect at some speeds that would pack the air in tighter..."
This also would be easy to measure with a differential pressure gage.
One side is just after the air filter and the other side is at the inlet to the supercharger.
If the resonances (or whatever) "pack air" into the intake, you should see a higher pressure difference than you see with a normal pipe.
I don't think it will do that at all, and I'm especially dubious about it doing it across a large RPM band as they claim.
"It seems like it should be possible to create a resonance effect at some speeds that would pack the air in tighter..."
This also would be easy to measure with a differential pressure gage.
One side is just after the air filter and the other side is at the inlet to the supercharger.
If the resonances (or whatever) "pack air" into the intake, you should see a higher pressure difference than you see with a normal pipe.
I don't think it will do that at all, and I'm especially dubious about it doing it across a large RPM band as they claim.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: New Jersey
>>In case you havent realized...this is something called advertisements. Companies even make crazy judgements in order to sell things as small as macaroni and cheese.
>>
>>No sense in whining...
Who you calling small?
--
Cheese
>>
>>No sense in whining...
Who you calling small?
--
Cheese
2nd Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Brooklyn, USA
Actually, it's not whining, it's annoyance. There's a clear difference with advertising claims. "This toothpaste will make you a sex god".... This is puffery, a deliberate exaggeration and not to be believed. "This toothpaste cures cavities in two weeks"...This is not an exaggeration, but an out and out LIE. If someone believes this claim and uses the product, thinking he'll be fine in two weeks, he's in big trouble. If you claim something miraculous for a product [a cure for a disease or an 80% increase in horsepower], you'd better back it up with scientific proof.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Lexington, NC
>>In case you havent realized...this is something called advertisements. Companies even make crazy judgements in order to sell things as small as macaroni and cheese.
>>
>>No sense in whining...
Ahhhh...no, this is not advertising, this is called lying. If you prefer this could also be called blowing sunshine up someone's posterior. If your gonna make number claims then back them up. If I bought a superharmonic dingleberry that when installed on the primary crank would give 5 to 7 horsepower according to the retailer, then it better give 5, 6 or 7 horsepower increase or the claims made are false.
Go buy a really expensive car part that doesn't perform as advertised and then tell me who's gonna be whining and all PO'ed.
That PB thread is a classic, keep up the questions Trippy and Andy. More data is never a bad thing.
>>
>>No sense in whining...
Ahhhh...no, this is not advertising, this is called lying. If you prefer this could also be called blowing sunshine up someone's posterior. If your gonna make number claims then back them up. If I bought a superharmonic dingleberry that when installed on the primary crank would give 5 to 7 horsepower according to the retailer, then it better give 5, 6 or 7 horsepower increase or the claims made are false.
Go buy a really expensive car part that doesn't perform as advertised and then tell me who's gonna be whining and all PO'ed.
That PB thread is a classic, keep up the questions Trippy and Andy. More data is never a bad thing.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Lansdale, PA
A classic example of over-the-top unproven marketing claims is J.C. Whitney. I can't tell you how many of their products reportedly "improve acceleration and fuel economy in every gear", from spoilers to curb feelers to necker *****. I always got a chuckle out of the "every gear" part since I can't think of any mods (except maybe different transmission ratios) that have a positive effect in some gears yet a negative effect in others.
1st Gear
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>>This also would be easy to measure with a differential pressure gage.
>>One side is just after the air filter and the other side is at the inlet to the supercharger.
>>If the resonances (or whatever) "pack air" into the intake, you should see a higher pressure difference than you see with a normal pipe.
>>
>>I don't think it will do that at all, and I'm especially dubious about it doing it across a large RPM band as they claim.
Agreed that it would be easy to measure, and if they were serious about it, they would probably do it--although Andy@rt's point is well taken--most customers don't really care. And anyway, even if there were a pressure increase, it would be difficult to translate that into hp gain, especially given the supercharger.
But I think it is possible to do such a thing, much like you tune an antenna for certain frequencies. Musical instruments, for example, are pretty much just pipes that resonate at various frequencies. Very hard to do a wide band of frequencies, though.
I applaud calling a vendor on dubious claims. They should have some numbers to back up their claims. Otherwise how do they even know it is an improvement?? But then, I'm an engineer.
>>One side is just after the air filter and the other side is at the inlet to the supercharger.
>>If the resonances (or whatever) "pack air" into the intake, you should see a higher pressure difference than you see with a normal pipe.
>>
>>I don't think it will do that at all, and I'm especially dubious about it doing it across a large RPM band as they claim.
Agreed that it would be easy to measure, and if they were serious about it, they would probably do it--although Andy@rt's point is well taken--most customers don't really care. And anyway, even if there were a pressure increase, it would be difficult to translate that into hp gain, especially given the supercharger.
But I think it is possible to do such a thing, much like you tune an antenna for certain frequencies. Musical instruments, for example, are pretty much just pipes that resonate at various frequencies. Very hard to do a wide band of frequencies, though.
I applaud calling a vendor on dubious claims. They should have some numbers to back up their claims. Otherwise how do they even know it is an improvement?? But then, I'm an engineer.
Former Vendor
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From: oh10
>>>>In case you havent realized...this is something called advertisements. Companies even make crazy judgements in order to sell things as small as macaroni and cheese.
>>>>
>>>>No sense in whining...
>>
>>
>>Ahhhh...no, this is not advertising, this is called lying. If you prefer this could also be called blowing sunshine up someone's posterior. If your gonna make number claims then back them up. If I bought a superharmonic dingleberry that when installed on the primary crank would give 5 to 7 horsepower according to the retailer, then it better give 5, 6 or 7 horsepower increase or the claims made are false.
>>
>>Go buy a really expensive car part that doesn't perform as advertised and then tell me who's gonna be whining and all PO'ed. now compared to back when intakes were first coming out.
I agree with faulty HP claims being bad....but picking at every word that a tuner uses to describe the product is kinda un-needed. You wouldnt want them to say "This is just an air filter with a bent metal piece. It sorta lowers the temperature of the air intake, but not really" . Which is the reasoning behind some of them using creative words to describe it. In a perfect world though they would say "Lowers intake temperature by X degrees"
>>>>
>>>>No sense in whining...
>>
>>
>>Ahhhh...no, this is not advertising, this is called lying. If you prefer this could also be called blowing sunshine up someone's posterior. If your gonna make number claims then back them up. If I bought a superharmonic dingleberry that when installed on the primary crank would give 5 to 7 horsepower according to the retailer, then it better give 5, 6 or 7 horsepower increase or the claims made are false.
>>
>>Go buy a really expensive car part that doesn't perform as advertised and then tell me who's gonna be whining and all PO'ed.
now compared to back when intakes were first coming out. I agree with faulty HP claims being bad....but picking at every word that a tuner uses to describe the product is kinda un-needed. You wouldnt want them to say "This is just an air filter with a bent metal piece. It sorta lowers the temperature of the air intake, but not really"
. Which is the reasoning behind some of them using creative words to describe it. In a perfect world though they would say "Lowers intake temperature by X degrees"
pug poo picker-upper
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From: California
In a perfect world though they would say "Lowers intake temperature by X degrees"
3rd Gear
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From: Lexington, NC
RallyMINI, I agree that Andy and Trippy have been rough with a couple of vendors and that some of their arguments are nitpicking sometimes, but I usually just overlook it. Unless the nitpicking is so bad I can't overlook it in which case I post something on that thread about it. For the most part I would rather hear that a cold air intake doesn't give horse power because of cold air, but infact frees up a few horses from better air flow. I agree that guys like RandyBMC, Eric at Helix,and Dan with Pilo, just to name 3, are mostly honest guys and they don't intentionally misrepresent the product they sell. I do have questions about Madness and Mania, not to bash anyone but I question some of the numbers they advertise. Maybe Randy's dyno numbers are optimistic and maybe Eric's dyno numbers are pesimistic, I don't know. I usually average the two and add one to get what I believe are acurate numbers. I still think its a good idea to have Trippy and Andy grill a vendor or two every now and then. It keeps people honest.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: San Diego CA
>>So does anyone have a suggestion on how we can present our feelings when a vendor makes an announcement of a product that doesn't look like it passes the basic physics smell test?
>>
You asked the question so here is the Answer---- Its called TACT and you lack it. There are many ways to things there is the polite way and the A$$H@le way. You can tap someone on the shoulder and say "excuse me" or you can get a baseball bat crack them over the head and say "Get the F##k out of my way" both are effective ways to get someone out of the way. You seem to be the type that would choose the later. In my dealings with people, people that respond the way you do have 10% knowledge and 90% opinion and most of the time they don't really know what they are talking about. They are just people trying to get someone to listen to them.
I haven't learned anything from any of the harrassment you make here. All the threads you get involved in turn into grade school brawls "I know more than you "
type stuff. I would like to see you banned because you cause as much trouble as others did on this site but you say its in the name of "Science and Education" How can someone who promotes peace as much as you cause sooooo many conflicts????????
If you truly mean you want to educate us and help us do it with tact and let us understand what you talking about instead of the school yard bully aspect. (from what you have written it seems you have been warned about your tactics why don't you learn and try something different )
>>
You asked the question so here is the Answer---- Its called TACT and you lack it. There are many ways to things there is the polite way and the A$$H@le way. You can tap someone on the shoulder and say "excuse me" or you can get a baseball bat crack them over the head and say "Get the F##k out of my way" both are effective ways to get someone out of the way. You seem to be the type that would choose the later. In my dealings with people, people that respond the way you do have 10% knowledge and 90% opinion and most of the time they don't really know what they are talking about. They are just people trying to get someone to listen to them.
I haven't learned anything from any of the harrassment you make here. All the threads you get involved in turn into grade school brawls "I know more than you "
type stuff. I would like to see you banned because you cause as much trouble as others did on this site but you say its in the name of "Science and Education" How can someone who promotes peace as much as you cause sooooo many conflicts????????If you truly mean you want to educate us and help us do it with tact and let us understand what you talking about instead of the school yard bully aspect. (from what you have written it seems you have been warned about your tactics why don't you learn and try something different )
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From: Plymouth, MN
Well grendel, I'm sorry if I've come off as a bully. I am not and I will try to be more tactfull in the future.
I don't give in to wishy-washy answers. The discussions may get heated when a vendor refuses to give genuine answers to questions. That does make some vendors a bit crazy when their non-answers don't get accepted, and they are challenged over and over again. I will try and always try to explain why I am unsatisfied with a particular answer in the future.
I'll even refuse to call you names like you called me in that last post.
No one responsible for this site has mentioned anything to me about my postings, so if you think I have "been warned" you are incorrect.
I don't give in to wishy-washy answers. The discussions may get heated when a vendor refuses to give genuine answers to questions. That does make some vendors a bit crazy when their non-answers don't get accepted, and they are challenged over and over again. I will try and always try to explain why I am unsatisfied with a particular answer in the future.
I'll even refuse to call you names like you called me in that last post.
No one responsible for this site has mentioned anything to me about my postings, so if you think I have "been warned" you are incorrect.
3rd Gear
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From: San Diego CA
>>
>>I'll even refuse to call you names like you called me in that last post.
>>
Lets see I re-read my post and still don't see where I called you a name. I said you lacked TACT thats not a name or a personal judgment its your method I was commenting on, Which answers your original question.
>>No one responsible for this site has mentioned anything to me about my postings, so if you think I have "been warned" you are incorrect.
I thought in some post a few months ago you said that" every time I call a vendor on "snake oil" the thread gets pulled " or smething like that. I guess I translated that as someone talked to you-------My bad.
>>I'll even refuse to call you names like you called me in that last post.
>>
Lets see I re-read my post and still don't see where I called you a name. I said you lacked TACT thats not a name or a personal judgment its your method I was commenting on, Which answers your original question.
>>No one responsible for this site has mentioned anything to me about my postings, so if you think I have "been warned" you are incorrect.
I thought in some post a few months ago you said that" every time I call a vendor on "snake oil" the thread gets pulled " or smething like that. I guess I translated that as someone talked to you-------My bad.
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From: Plymouth, MN
> The anger of grendel's attack on trippy is calling the kettle black.
I respectfully disagree. I haven't seen a Grendel posting that I had a problem with.
I asked for suggestions, and Grendel responded. I am trying to be more effective in my posts by being more verbose explaining where I have a problem with a vendor response, and Grendel brought up some old posting habits that I needed reminding of.
No problem except all the bad words. (Its against site policy to use #@*! to disguise bad words you know)
I can take it and learn to try and not make people quite so angry.
I respectfully disagree. I haven't seen a Grendel posting that I had a problem with.
I asked for suggestions, and Grendel responded. I am trying to be more effective in my posts by being more verbose explaining where I have a problem with a vendor response, and Grendel brought up some old posting habits that I needed reminding of.
No problem except all the bad words. (Its against site policy to use #@*! to disguise bad words you know)
I can take it and learn to try and not make people quite so angry.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: San Diego CA
Grendel brought up some old posting habits that I needed reminding of.
>>
Maybe not, maybe I am still just frustrated from the way many post I tried to learn from turned into HUGE personal battles that nothing good ever came of. (No finger pointing) A couple a months ago I did notice your posts became more positive more so in the OTP, it is nice to be challenged without being attacked.
>>No problem except all the bad words. (Its against site policy to use #@*! to disguise bad words you know)
No I didn't I have seen it here so many times I thought it was O.K. I guess someone needs to re-read site guidlines(ME)
>>
>>I can take it and learn to try and not make people quite so angry.
:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:
>>
Maybe not, maybe I am still just frustrated from the way many post I tried to learn from turned into HUGE personal battles that nothing good ever came of. (No finger pointing) A couple a months ago I did notice your posts became more positive more so in the OTP, it is nice to be challenged without being attacked.
>>No problem except all the bad words. (Its against site policy to use #@*! to disguise bad words you know)
No I didn't I have seen it here so many times I thought it was O.K. I guess someone needs to re-read site guidlines(ME)
>>
>>I can take it and learn to try and not make people quite so angry.
:smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: