Drivetrain Also posted in vendor announcements, Pilo Racing Cylinder He
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 109
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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Dan,
That is the most recent dyno on my 2002 MCS. It shows hp at the wheels corrected, but overall was 265hp at the engine. Mods have been as follows ;
head - ported and polished / larger valves
Schrick Cam
Evotec ECU, just remapped to match the head work and the mods
Alta 15% pulley
2 ranges lower ( colder ) plugs
Madness cold air intake
modified rear intake wall
BCC air intake scoops in front of windsheild
larger throttle body
QS high flow header with CAT
QS Sport exhaust
8mm plug wires
Other work;
K&W variant II coil overs
custom adjustable rear control arms upper and lower
H&R competition rear sway bar / 22 mm
vented / slotted rotors
Mini Mania front strut brace
18" Kahn Wheels / Yokohama Pirada Spec 2 tires
Alta short shift kit
Roll bar
Sparco Milano2 leather seats
harnesses (2)
Pro Mini gauge set
Hamaan front and rear spoiler lips
In fact Dan, there was an additional 20 hp ! available if the intake temps could be kept down as during a ducted fan forcing cool air on the engine during dyno testing after this run. I tried a air/water intercooler previously but it did not work too well so am with the stock intercooler currently. If a reliable unit was available, it would help the top numbers more significantly. Even so, this is pretty good and more than enough for street driving which is what I use the car for ............. just fun ! Never have tracked it, although it is ready to go for that.
I can say it so much different than when it was stock, that I just love driving it any chance I can ! Firm, tight and very fast.
That is the most recent dyno on my 2002 MCS. It shows hp at the wheels corrected, but overall was 265hp at the engine. Mods have been as follows ;
head - ported and polished / larger valves
Schrick Cam
Evotec ECU, just remapped to match the head work and the mods
Alta 15% pulley
2 ranges lower ( colder ) plugs
Madness cold air intake
modified rear intake wall
BCC air intake scoops in front of windsheild
larger throttle body
QS high flow header with CAT
QS Sport exhaust
8mm plug wires
Other work;
K&W variant II coil overs
custom adjustable rear control arms upper and lower
H&R competition rear sway bar / 22 mm
vented / slotted rotors
Mini Mania front strut brace
18" Kahn Wheels / Yokohama Pirada Spec 2 tires
Alta short shift kit
Roll bar
Sparco Milano2 leather seats
harnesses (2)
Pro Mini gauge set
Hamaan front and rear spoiler lips
In fact Dan, there was an additional 20 hp ! available if the intake temps could be kept down as during a ducted fan forcing cool air on the engine during dyno testing after this run. I tried a air/water intercooler previously but it did not work too well so am with the stock intercooler currently. If a reliable unit was available, it would help the top numbers more significantly. Even so, this is pretty good and more than enough for street driving which is what I use the car for ............. just fun ! Never have tracked it, although it is ready to go for that.
I can say it so much different than when it was stock, that I just love driving it any chance I can ! Firm, tight and very fast.
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
If a MCS with pulley runs in SM class at SCCA autocross,
Does the addition of a Racing Cylinder head like this one change it's racing class out of SM to something else?
What would be the shipping charge to and from for a cylinder head to Hawaii?
My guess would be roughly $2 a pound so how much does the cylinder head weigh?
Doesn't seem worth the effort if shipping is prohibitive. Not to mention the time it takes to ship.
Better to just get the work done here without having to pay for shipping/insurance.
There's nothing worse than to be told- "sorry, it's lost at sea". :evil: :???:
Does the addition of a Racing Cylinder head like this one change it's racing class out of SM to something else?
What would be the shipping charge to and from for a cylinder head to Hawaii?
My guess would be roughly $2 a pound so how much does the cylinder head weigh?
Doesn't seem worth the effort if shipping is prohibitive. Not to mention the time it takes to ship.
Better to just get the work done here without having to pay for shipping/insurance.
There's nothing worse than to be told- "sorry, it's lost at sea". :evil: :???:
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
I tried reading the Ambassadors twice, gave up, but read quite a bit of Faulkner, whose genius was in time frame/stream of conciousness.
If jigster is getting 225 uncorrected wheel hp, that might be a record for what has been reported. the highest I have seen for a 15% pulley, modded way out is maybe 210. (my rig with a 19% and the apexi and a better intercooler pulled 198 at the wheels, SAE, but by pressing a button on the dyno, it changed to a 210 uncorrected reading)
If jigster is getting 225 uncorrected wheel hp, that might be a record for what has been reported. the highest I have seen for a 15% pulley, modded way out is maybe 210. (my rig with a 19% and the apexi and a better intercooler pulled 198 at the wheels, SAE, but by pressing a button on the dyno, it changed to a 210 uncorrected reading)
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
Likes: 0
From: Wyckoff, NJ
>>If a MCS with pulley runs in SM class at SCCA autocross,
>>Does the addition of a Racing Cylinder head like this one change it's racing class out of SM to something else?
>>
>>What would be the shipping charge to and from for a cylinder head to Hawaii?
>>My guess would be roughly $2 a pound so how much does the cylinder head weigh?
>>Doesn't seem worth the effort if shipping is prohibitive. Not to mention the time it takes to ship.
>>Better to just get the work done here without having to pay for shipping/insurance.
>>There's nothing worse than to be told- "sorry, it's lost at sea". :evil: :???:
I am guessing you are providing the cylinder head to get worked on? We have the ability to get the head worked on it 2 places. One in the west coast, and one on the east coast. The shiipping on that shoudl save you some money if sent directly to the east coast facility.
>>Does the addition of a Racing Cylinder head like this one change it's racing class out of SM to something else?
>>
>>What would be the shipping charge to and from for a cylinder head to Hawaii?
>>My guess would be roughly $2 a pound so how much does the cylinder head weigh?
>>Doesn't seem worth the effort if shipping is prohibitive. Not to mention the time it takes to ship.
>>Better to just get the work done here without having to pay for shipping/insurance.
>>There's nothing worse than to be told- "sorry, it's lost at sea". :evil: :???:
I am guessing you are providing the cylinder head to get worked on? We have the ability to get the head worked on it 2 places. One in the west coast, and one on the east coast. The shiipping on that shoudl save you some money if sent directly to the east coast facility.
That's gona make a huge difference in top HP numbers.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
MiniPilo wrote:
How do you know what happens after 6500 rpm? Maybe your power is higher than 187.5. Maybe it is lower. It looks like your modded torque may be getting close to your stock torque after 6,000 rpm. How do you know that trend does not contiunue and they meet back up at 6750 rpm? Either way, it is not right to quote gains when you haven't actually tested that (unless you did and haven't posted it yet).
How did you do at E-Town?
Andy,
No offence, but I never said that I did. I said extrapolated to the same RPM. IF you want real Gains, I have proven it. I have shown actual dyno runs that show Good Gains. The Extrapolation that I did was LINEAR to the base line run. This means that the gains shown at the top RPM are the same as the point at which the second Dyno run ended. Anyway, it's not going to be 187.5, that is the point on a line. The graph does not go up to that line. I am not talking about drawing a Random Graph of 300 HP, but using a conservative Extrapolation of the Given Data.
Come out to English town on saturday, and you can decide whether my car is faster or not.
No offence, but I never said that I did. I said extrapolated to the same RPM. IF you want real Gains, I have proven it. I have shown actual dyno runs that show Good Gains. The Extrapolation that I did was LINEAR to the base line run. This means that the gains shown at the top RPM are the same as the point at which the second Dyno run ended. Anyway, it's not going to be 187.5, that is the point on a line. The graph does not go up to that line. I am not talking about drawing a Random Graph of 300 HP, but using a conservative Extrapolation of the Given Data.
Come out to English town on saturday, and you can decide whether my car is faster or not.
How did you do at E-Town?
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
>>MiniPilo wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>How do you know what happens after 6500 rpm? Maybe your power is higher than 187.5. Maybe it is lower. It looks like your modded torque may be getting close to your stock torque after 6,000 rpm. How do you know that trend does not contiunue and they meet back up at 6750 rpm? Either way, it is not right to quote gains when you haven't actually tested that (unless you did and haven't posted it yet).
>>
>>How did you do at E-Town?
I understand where your coming from, and don't claim that those are actual gains, just used to see what the gains were at the point that the run stopped.
I didn't get to e-town... it was a long weekend, I hope to go on wed of friday as long as it doesn't snow and stuff..
>>
>>
Andy,
>>No offence, but I never said that I did. I said extrapolated to the same RPM. IF you want real Gains, I have proven it. I have shown actual dyno runs that show Good Gains. The Extrapolation that I did was LINEAR to the base line run. This means that the gains shown at the top RPM are the same as the point at which the second Dyno run ended. Anyway, it's not going to be 187.5, that is the point on a line. The graph does not go up to that line. I am not talking about drawing a Random Graph of 300 HP, but using a conservative Extrapolation of the Given Data.
>>
>>Come out to English town on saturday, and you can decide whether my car is faster or not.
>>No offence, but I never said that I did. I said extrapolated to the same RPM. IF you want real Gains, I have proven it. I have shown actual dyno runs that show Good Gains. The Extrapolation that I did was LINEAR to the base line run. This means that the gains shown at the top RPM are the same as the point at which the second Dyno run ended. Anyway, it's not going to be 187.5, that is the point on a line. The graph does not go up to that line. I am not talking about drawing a Random Graph of 300 HP, but using a conservative Extrapolation of the Given Data.
>>
>>Come out to English town on saturday, and you can decide whether my car is faster or not.
>>How do you know what happens after 6500 rpm? Maybe your power is higher than 187.5. Maybe it is lower. It looks like your modded torque may be getting close to your stock torque after 6,000 rpm. How do you know that trend does not contiunue and they meet back up at 6750 rpm? Either way, it is not right to quote gains when you haven't actually tested that (unless you did and haven't posted it yet).
>>
>>How did you do at E-Town?
I understand where your coming from, and don't claim that those are actual gains, just used to see what the gains were at the point that the run stopped.
I didn't get to e-town... it was a long weekend, I hope to go on wed of friday as long as it doesn't snow and stuff..
.......
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
MiniPilo wrote:
No, you didn't. You made up data that was never collected.
If you had wanted to see what the gains were at the point where the run stopped, you would have drawn lines from 6500 (where you stopped the modded run) down to see where it matched up with the stock run. You can ask Eric at Helix to give you a printout showing only the differences between the runs. This blows up the data in a much more readable form. It looks like at 6500 (the last RPM point where you have actual data to compare) that the stock run is maybe 168 whp.
I understand where your coming from, and don't claim that those are actual gains, just used to see what the gains were at the point that the run stopped.
If you had wanted to see what the gains were at the point where the run stopped, you would have drawn lines from 6500 (where you stopped the modded run) down to see where it matched up with the stock run. You can ask Eric at Helix to give you a printout showing only the differences between the runs. This blows up the data in a much more readable form. It looks like at 6500 (the last RPM point where you have actual data to compare) that the stock run is maybe 168 whp.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
>>Andy wrote:
>>
>>
He didn't make up any data. He clearly stated that he extrapolated the data, and that it does not necessarily match real numbers. Extrapolation is a statistical best guess of what may happen to a line/curve based off of a number of previous measured points. No one in there right mind is going to say or believe that extrapolated data is "made up data" or that it is indicative of measured results.
If you don't like the extrapolation or the basis of the extrapolation then don't believe it. It is a guess and for every guess you will find proponents and detractors. I don't think that Dan did anything technically wrong or misled anyone. It was clearly stated and was used to help people visualize something that may or may not be accurate.
>>
No, you didn't. You made up data that was never collected.
He didn't make up any data. He clearly stated that he extrapolated the data, and that it does not necessarily match real numbers. Extrapolation is a statistical best guess of what may happen to a line/curve based off of a number of previous measured points. No one in there right mind is going to say or believe that extrapolated data is "made up data" or that it is indicative of measured results.
If you don't like the extrapolation or the basis of the extrapolation then don't believe it. It is a guess and for every guess you will find proponents and detractors. I don't think that Dan did anything technically wrong or misled anyone. It was clearly stated and was used to help people visualize something that may or may not be accurate.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
Hey Guy's.
It's been a while since I have posted here, but I have been figuring out prices and such. The price will be $1400 Dollars with a 600 Dollar Core Charge on the unit that will be fully refunded once we recieve a working Cylinder head back from you. After puting over 1000 miles on the car we are actually averaging about 1.5 MPG better then before. and the drivability is still there. I think that the only issue is being able to keep the stock 195 width tires from lighting up into a 1st through 3rd gear burnout.
We Gained about 13HP at 6100 RPM. (This was using Actual Data Andy, so don't worry)
Here is our graph
This head is being build by DPR Racing Heads in California. We have worked out a deal with them and we will be the main distributor of this item. Also we will be offering the ported and polished supercharger. with 19% pulley on it.
Here is a Brief History about them.
It's been a while since I have posted here, but I have been figuring out prices and such. The price will be $1400 Dollars with a 600 Dollar Core Charge on the unit that will be fully refunded once we recieve a working Cylinder head back from you. After puting over 1000 miles on the car we are actually averaging about 1.5 MPG better then before. and the drivability is still there. I think that the only issue is being able to keep the stock 195 width tires from lighting up into a 1st through 3rd gear burnout.
We Gained about 13HP at 6100 RPM. (This was using Actual Data Andy, so don't worry)
Here is our graph
This head is being build by DPR Racing Heads in California. We have worked out a deal with them and we will be the main distributor of this item. Also we will be offering the ported and polished supercharger. with 19% pulley on it.
Here is a Brief History about them.
DPR Racing Heads was founded seven years ago. Bringing together expertise from a variety of different racing disciplines, DPR's founder, Dan Paramore and his family, created one of the most recognized brand names in the business and a powerful reputation for premium quality work in an emerging market.
Since its founding, DPR Racing Heads has captured numerous records and a host of features in publications spanning the automotive spectrum. DPR equipped turbo/nitrous Hondas were at the forefront of constant drag strip record breaking in 1995-1996, as well as sweeping the Glad Helens 1-2 1600 championship series, capturing first, second, and third. In 1997, DPR Hondas captured several records in drag classes while DPR road racing cars captured numerous event wins in Formula racing. In 1998, the red Integra and yellow Supra awed the crowds while the Prelude cleaned up at road events, including at the LA Grand Prix.
Additionally, two land speed records were shattered with American Honda and a Formula F championship was captured. DPR was literally "Racing Around the World" (see racing around the world) track support, representing American Honda. Seminars, charity and club events packed Dan's and his crew's 24/7 schedule. "I have been in the racing business for 30 years now. It is always a challenge and learning experience. I have been blessed with a very enjoyable racing life. I love it and I hope you all can enjoy also." DPR, its cars, and crew have been featured hundreds of times in dozens of magazines and TV advertisements in and out of the USA. DPR has developed into more than a technological leader and influences the market by getting involved in all aspects of the racing industry, not forgetting the grassroots racers, the community, and the fans.
Since its founding, DPR Racing Heads has captured numerous records and a host of features in publications spanning the automotive spectrum. DPR equipped turbo/nitrous Hondas were at the forefront of constant drag strip record breaking in 1995-1996, as well as sweeping the Glad Helens 1-2 1600 championship series, capturing first, second, and third. In 1997, DPR Hondas captured several records in drag classes while DPR road racing cars captured numerous event wins in Formula racing. In 1998, the red Integra and yellow Supra awed the crowds while the Prelude cleaned up at road events, including at the LA Grand Prix.
Additionally, two land speed records were shattered with American Honda and a Formula F championship was captured. DPR was literally "Racing Around the World" (see racing around the world) track support, representing American Honda. Seminars, charity and club events packed Dan's and his crew's 24/7 schedule. "I have been in the racing business for 30 years now. It is always a challenge and learning experience. I have been blessed with a very enjoyable racing life. I love it and I hope you all can enjoy also." DPR, its cars, and crew have been featured hundreds of times in dozens of magazines and TV advertisements in and out of the USA. DPR has developed into more than a technological leader and influences the market by getting involved in all aspects of the racing industry, not forgetting the grassroots racers, the community, and the fans.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
Dan,
Forget the hp gain, the torque gain looks much more interesting. 9 ft/lbs greater peak, more torque across the curve and looks like a beefy 12 or more ft/lbs greater in the 5,000-6,000 rpm range. The hp looks nice, but only starts becoming apparent above 4500rpm. Besides hp is much easier to produce than torque, and this starts bringing the torque into line with the hp numbers. Looks real good.
Forget the hp gain, the torque gain looks much more interesting. 9 ft/lbs greater peak, more torque across the curve and looks like a beefy 12 or more ft/lbs greater in the 5,000-6,000 rpm range. The hp looks nice, but only starts becoming apparent above 4500rpm. Besides hp is much easier to produce than torque, and this starts bringing the torque into line with the hp numbers. Looks real good.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
Yes, The torque is great. I am still waiting on a comparison graph to use to give better numbers on that. I will use the same process that I did to give you torque at a couple diffrent places.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,882
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
As you can see, I figured out the max torque gain which ended up to be about 11 FT LBS at about 5900 RPM. Those are some pretty impressive numbers. Like I said, This car pulls Hard. Good numbers and this head is about $500 less then anything else out on the market!
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6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Wyckoff, NJ
Temperature was within 5 degrees of each day. Every thing was pretty much comparable.
This price is for stage 1 with the 13 HP gain and 11 FT lbs of torque. We can go stage 2 with larger valve and stuff, but do not have the price worked out yet.
These runs are with Standard Softare, and Stock Header, Throtle Body, and Intake Manifold. Supercharger porting is stock, but have 15% pulley on it. Intake is Pilo Racing, and Echaust is UUC.
This price is for stage 1 with the 13 HP gain and 11 FT lbs of torque. We can go stage 2 with larger valve and stuff, but do not have the price worked out yet.
These runs are with Standard Softare, and Stock Header, Throtle Body, and Intake Manifold. Supercharger porting is stock, but have 15% pulley on it. Intake is Pilo Racing, and Echaust is UUC.