Hi guys,

This is the problem I am having. I have a R56 that I track maybe 3 times a year and when I brakes hard for a corner it takes alot of effort. (I brake with my hands as I use hand controls). So I was thinking that since I have to change my pads and rotors anyways, that maybe a big brake upgrade would help.Now I know mostly the benefits of big brake upgrade is the for consistency in brakeing and that it doesn;t necessarily change the stopping power of the brakes. But a bigger piston area may lesson the effort need and increase the clamping force. So my first question is would a big brake upgrade help?

Secone question is, there are 3 big brake upgrades ( stoptech, willwood, JCW) which one would you guys recommend and why?

Thanks!

 

JCW: parts are more easily available regardless of where life takes you.

Big brakes will help. You also may be able to increase the vacuum assist or mechanical leverage on the system that you have. Usually trade off will be longer travel for increased force, but having not seen the setup, I can't say much.

An over-bored brake master cylinder might work. (might can find another MY (model year) master cylinder or even a BMW MC that has a larger bore to help.

 

If you want more stopping power the right pad choice is the most critical part.

The biggest advantage of a BBK is protection from brake fade because of the larger rotor mass.

 

I'm not really a brake guru by any stretch of the imagination (talk to someone like toddtce, agokart, or Way if that's what you're looking for), but I would suppose to a certain extent it depends upon what size wheels you want to run, and whether or not you use r-comps and race pads. I'm sure you already know that your brakes and tires really go hand in hand, so if you're overwhelming your brakes on r-comps you can either upgrade to a BBK or downgrade your tires.

Both the Stoptech and Brembo kits are huge, so you'll have to deal with the extra mass that goes along with that. You'll have plenty of stopping power (I'm going to use that loaded term, but I'm sure those who are well versed in brakes are frothing at the mouth right now) and they shouldn't have difficulty with r-comps. You might also have difficulty finding a 17" wheel that will fit, so be aware. Again, these kits are big so if you aren't getting super high temps and you aren't absolutely sure you need them, IMHO it's probably best to save the weight.

Like Brad said, the JCW kit is serviceable by MINI, but that doesn't mean that other kits you'd buy from a vendor on here won't be. The warranty on your brakes will still be good, and you should have a better selection of 17" wheels to choose from.

Detroid Tuned also makes a good kit for both 16" and 17" wheels, and they're supposed to be really great. To be honest though, I don't believe I know enough about this kit to really comment on it beyond what I've read, which has been positive.

Next, the TSW kits. The BDM is lightweight and uses a super wide rotor to help achieve great performance and are good for running 15" and 16" wheels. It's really been made with 15" wheels and r-comps in mind, so if that's what you want then you're good to go. The LDM is a street kit that will fit under 15s as well, and can easily be upgraded to a BDM if that's what you want to do. The MDM is also a street kit, but is larger and will fit under 16" and 17" wheels.

Finally, you have the TCE/Wilwood (or factory Wilwood) kits. The factory Wilwood kits are also upgradable and customizable. If at first you think all you need is a street kit for 15" wheels, but find you eventually want to move to the stainless steel piston and lose the dust boots with a track kit, and/or you want to run a wider rotor for 15" wheels or a larger rotor for 16" wheels, you can trade up. TCE also has two different kits for 17" wheels, and if you want boat achors up front there's a kit for 18" wheels. You can also get a rear kit, which is really nice.

I don't really think there's a kit that's the "best." Every kit has their own strengths and weaknesses, and it's kind of up to you to decide which way you want to go. It really depends on your application and skill level.

tl;dr: read this for starters.

Anyway, hopefully that helps especially since I wrote this huge post . If I were you, I'd call a few of the vendors around here if you needed more and better info.

 

I have 17 inch team dynamics rim, will a JCW brake kit fit on that?

Also wonder if the braking effort is the same with this big brake upgrade?

 

Yes, they will fit without spacers. If you're worried about fitment, check out this old thread. The info is still good, and it should give you a good idea of what might fit and what might not. Check out this thread too, for wheels that will fit the JCW kit specifically if you have your heart set on that. As far as braking effort, I can't really comment on that sorry.

 

thanks! anyone have any ideas of the differences between the stop tech , willwood and the JCW?

 

I own a 17" DT BBK. It most my dearest friend on the track. I absolutely love it. I use Hawk DTC-70 pads in the kit. These definitely have more braking capability than my Dunlop Direzza's can handle, but what I like is not having to mash on the brake pedal. I started getting into HPDE's over a year ago and have five track days under my belt, so I'm still no Group 1 driver by a long shot, but I believe I push my car relatively hard on the track. My last track day at Grattan Raceway in Michigan had a 30 MINUTE session at the end of the day. I pushed my car harder than normal this session and never ever experieced brake fade. If you're a track rat you must get a BBK. If you're not, I wouldn't buy it. A upgraded pad, brake fluid, and brake line setup would be more ideal.

 

 

For the average Joe a bbk is not needed. In fact the r56pad to the r56 jcw pad is all most the same size. I would recamend getting better brake pads first. I run carbotech, call them up and talk to Danny or Mike they can help get you in to the right pads for what you are doing.

 

I think you'd be best served by one of the 12.2 factory Wilwood kits. I say that not simply because I offer them but because to me they appear the best compromise for your needs.

This kit will offer you a balance of more thermal mass, greater efficiency, improved clamping performance for your hand controls, less overall weight and extreme ease of use with a wide assortment of pad compounds.

From the read it appears you would look to a couple of track days a year and a simple (5min) pad change would transform the car immensely. You could likely get by on either the booted or ss piston models without much problem if you don't track the car to the hilt. But the ss would be a simple option.

The TCE and ST kits will both offer you larger rotors and more mass. One of the trade offs however is that they will often balance this with less piston area which not only firms up the pedal more but requires more pedal effort- a tactical formula for the track day buyer and modulation as well as biasing. This in turn will require you push harder and may well make for a more tiring day. For the enthusiast the real benefit is looks inside a 17" wheel and greater thermal resistance. But if you truly only hit the race track a couple times a year....you don't necessarily need all these kits offer you.

As for the JCW stuff, I can't speak for all the pros and cons but to me a kit with heavier one piece rotors, heavier calipers, a need to buy ss hoses and the cost of all that just for a red caliper and decal is easily trumped by the cost effectiveness of the Wilwood factory kit.

While I'd also agree with wellzy that a bbk is not necessary...so are a lot of other things owners purchase for their car. That doesn't make them a bad purchase or a waste of money. A BBK can add to the driving enjoyment of your car both on the track and off. Alternate oe pads are a decent investment also, although I don't know what the size of them has to do with it. Just don't spend hundreds over and over only to realize you could have purchased a BBK more efficiently to begin with! (seen it)

Brad; the mc idea is not a bad one but he'll need a smaller bore, not larger one to reduce the required effort. Could be tough- oe is pretty small.

 

I've yet to see an aftermarket kit that works as well in the elements(rain, snow, salt,etc) as an OEM kit. I tend to not like messing with stuff all the time, which is why I'd stick with the OEM for a daily driven car. On the track, I agree 100% with your suggestion and your writeup.

I went to a larger bore on my MR2 and had increased stopping power. (7/8 to 15/16"), which makes me think it'd be the other way around. However, when I stop to think about what I was really experiencing, my pedal feel was better with higher effort. A smaller bore would be best, which might not be ideal.

 

How are your hand controls set up?

The way your set up applies the brakes may be the issue too and you might have to alter part of this as well to fix your issue.

 

For those not quite following this aspect:

A larger bore mc requires more effort to push to attain a set psi.
The larger bore tends to give more tactical response or feel.
The larger bore will have a shorter stroke for a given displacement.

A smaller bore mc requires less effort to push to attain a set psi.
The smaller bore tends to favor the street driver and gentle pedal application.
The smaller bore will have a longer stroke for a given displacement.

Because the OP mentioned the hand controls I'd be leery of a system upping the necessary amount of effort is all. An improved result with the same or less effort would be my goal.

From the enthusiast standpoint we tent to favor the "rock hard, omg these brakes are amazing!" standpoint. Reality is; you're only having to push harder on the pedal, it's not braking any more or less. But because changing this is complicated we (the builders) alter the piston bores in a caliper to achieve the same goal. When properly paired with a rotor diameter and pad the overall torque is the same- you just do it with a different math formula.

Can't really speak for the elements....we don't have them in Phoenix. But there are certainly many suppliers and oe's with similar, multi piston design systems that perform well in adverse conditions. That being said, I'd agree that if one were looking for a BBK for improved snow braking...they'd be better of buying snow tires!

 

ive got carbotech bobcat pads on my 09 jcw brakes and they stop great on the street and the stock pad squeal is gone too.

 

The OP might also look into increasing the leverage on the hand control M/C. Or perhaps a larger booster.

Me being a stupid mechanical engineer, makes me think that a BBK isn't going to help the OP. BBK usually have the more, smaller pistons, and that the total force applied to the pads is the same. (you need to do this so that the brake balance is the same, otherwise you end up locking the fronts well before the rears, and that isn't a good thing.)

 

A bbk will not help this guy. He clearly needs a break pad that generates more brake torq at a given presure. Just me but I would go with something like carbotech 1521 for daily use and at the track bump up to at least xp8's.

 

This is why I asked about his hand controls and am still wondering exactly if the effort he is referring to was the force needed to apply the brakes or the distance it took for the car to slow down to his desired speed. A BBK will only benefit the later of the two.

As you pointed out the mc or lever used may need to generate more force to make up for the fact it's his hands/ arm doing the work and not his legg which generaly would generate more force on a peddle.

 

To answer you question. I am most having problems with the effort it takes for maximum braking. I'venever really had this problem in years of racing, so I'm a little confused. But then I used to race Civics so they are different. It wouldn't hurt to have the brakes be better in terms of fade but the effort needed for maximum braking is most what I'm interested in.

 

I would agree that everyone here is right to a degree. But I'll counter that saying a BBK is of no help to him is false.

Taking the issue of hand controls and hydraulics out of the conversation for a moment, he mentioned the open track day use as well as his intent to service the car with parts regardless. All I have pointed out is that if he's planning to use it on the track there are clearly some benefits to the entire BBK format; mass, efficiency, weight, ease of service etc. Not to mention the cost factor possibly when compared to what he might pay (and certainly will with JCW parts) to get there.

The hydraulics issue is double sided. With the Wilwood factory kit being both a larger diameter rotor and roughly 5% more piston area the whole system generates some 15% more rotor torque for the same given input. Carrying that math one step farther that equates to a 10lb reduction in required pedal (lever) effort. Same result, less effort. (*Wilwood 12.2 DP kit vs 294mm oe rotor, same pad spec)

Now I know some of the purists will cry foul and even point to my own comments above regarding piston sizing vs rotor sizing etc. And I don't disagree with that- to a point. What's often overlooked in the MINI has been to achieve increases in total braking force (all four wheels in fact) don't quite equate to a larger car. With such a short wheelbase a desire to keep the bias and desired dynamic braking equal is not so effective. ie anyone who tells you you can exploit a lot more rear brake in this car clearly has not seen one on the track. So yes he maybe shifting the bias forward by roughly 4% but the trade off for the gains outweigh the negatives.


**And yes I'd fully agree that a change to the hand control ratio (or where it's mounted on the pedal even) will alter this as well. Some alterations to the ratio and higher Cf pad might be all it takes. But again; I'm back to the side benefits vs cost aspect also. He won't get new rotors, weight reduction, ss hoses etc with that included. I know it sounds like a sales pitch but I'm offering it up from a comparative standpoint here too.

 

so of the four (stop tech, JCW, TSW, and Willwood) which one would you recommend?

 

Tough and some would say "loaded" question.

There's no one right answer. I can make an argument pro and con for most of them. I put up the following on my site some time ago and I don't care how you cut it; it' as true now as it was when I said it and will never go away:
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Common question: what brake kit should I buy for my car? I hear it on the phone and read it daily in a dozen online forums. So for some time now I've been pushing the Rule of Three:

1. What size wheel are your running? What size can you fit with regard to your chosen wheel diameter?

2. What is your intended use for the kit? A daily driver hardly needs 15lb rotors, but a serious track user would do well to have more mass.

3. What's your budget? No point in shopping a Ferrari if you can only afford a Fiesta right?

Reality: Pick Two.

I don't know anyone who hits the trifecta of a BBK purchase. There are pros and cons to all the offerings on the market. Consider the three elements and see what the pros and cons are for your own car is a good starting point.

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The only addition you bring to this situation is the need for hand controls. I'd have to say in closing on it that you won't go wrong with any of them in reality. I do feel one of them would remain better suited to your needs than just investing more money in stock and oe replacement parts.

 

I'm sure there is lot's of great info here, but I'm feeling to lazy to read everything so I'll just share my two bits...

I'm running a StopTech Kit and I love it. I've got way more brake than I could ever need on the street, and I can pretty much out brake anybody at the track. The biggest disadvantage with the stop techs is fitment. Fortunately the Team Dyanamics I run worked with the addition of some spacers. Unfortunately my overworked suspension needed replacement to solve some minor rubbing (maybe that was a good thing).

If I had to choose again I'd stick to the StopTechs. But... I've also had experience with the JCW brakes, and they are commonly used in racing. The value for your money is definitely there, and you'll have more option as far as fitment goes. There are also good choices available for pads and rotors with the JCW kit, Performance Friction, and CarboTech are two names that come to mind for high performance rotors/pads.

 

I have over 75 track days including multiple open track days and 39 on the Mini and still feel like a noob sometimes as I learn everyday on the track.

 

I have tce's plus 3 kit with 13" rotors and FSL calipers and would recommend them for hard core trackies. Perhaps the less aggressive kit tod mentioned would be sufficient for op for the reasons already mentioned. Suitable pads are a must.