Drivetrain BFP MCS True Cold Air Intake pictures!!!
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 151
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From: California
>>ocho9 wrote:
>>
>>
>>CFRP has a higher coefficient of thermal conductivity than, say polypropylene or polyethylene. It lower than aluminum or steel but higher than non-composite plastics. Carbon fibers themselves conduct heat very well - a sheet of graphite would be a horrible insulator. The epoxy resins used in the manufacture of CFRP are decent insulators, but combine them with a poor insulator to make CFRP, and the result is less than stellar.
>>
>>What it all boils down to is carbon fiber is a worse material for intakes than plastic, but better than aluminum or steel.
>>
>>Where do you come up with the notion that "Carbon fiber does not take on the heat at all like the stock plastic pipe"?
The only reason it would really be any worse is the thickness. Most people when they use carbon fiber only use a thin layer less than .01 inch thick. Where the stock box is probably over .125 thick. I am just guessing at the thickness.
>>
Carbon fiber does not take on the heat at all like the stock plastic pipe. Where did you come up with that?
>>CFRP has a higher coefficient of thermal conductivity than, say polypropylene or polyethylene. It lower than aluminum or steel but higher than non-composite plastics. Carbon fibers themselves conduct heat very well - a sheet of graphite would be a horrible insulator. The epoxy resins used in the manufacture of CFRP are decent insulators, but combine them with a poor insulator to make CFRP, and the result is less than stellar.
>>
>>What it all boils down to is carbon fiber is a worse material for intakes than plastic, but better than aluminum or steel.
>>
>>Where do you come up with the notion that "Carbon fiber does not take on the heat at all like the stock plastic pipe"?
The only reason it would really be any worse is the thickness. Most people when they use carbon fiber only use a thin layer less than .01 inch thick. Where the stock box is probably over .125 thick. I am just guessing at the thickness.
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 151
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From: California
>>ocho9 wrote:
>>
>>
>>CFRP has a higher coefficient of thermal conductivity than, say polypropylene or polyethylene. It lower than aluminum or steel but higher than non-composite plastics. Carbon fibers themselves conduct heat very well - a sheet of graphite would be a horrible insulator. The epoxy resins used in the manufacture of CFRP are decent insulators, but combine them with a poor insulator to make CFRP, and the result is less than stellar.
>>
>>What it all boils down to is carbon fiber is a worse material for intakes than plastic, but better than aluminum or steel.
>>
>>Where do you come up with the notion that "Carbon fiber does not take on the heat at all like the stock plastic pipe"?
Who said anything about the stock plastic pipe?
>>
Carbon fiber does not take on the heat at all like the stock plastic pipe. Where did you come up with that?
>>CFRP has a higher coefficient of thermal conductivity than, say polypropylene or polyethylene. It lower than aluminum or steel but higher than non-composite plastics. Carbon fibers themselves conduct heat very well - a sheet of graphite would be a horrible insulator. The epoxy resins used in the manufacture of CFRP are decent insulators, but combine them with a poor insulator to make CFRP, and the result is less than stellar.
>>
>>What it all boils down to is carbon fiber is a worse material for intakes than plastic, but better than aluminum or steel.
>>
>>Where do you come up with the notion that "Carbon fiber does not take on the heat at all like the stock plastic pipe"?
Who said anything about the stock plastic pipe?
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
Ummm, I quoted you from page 2. You assert that " Carbon fiber does not take on the heat at all like the stock plastic pipe."
Are you actually implying that someone is making an airbox out of carbon fiber that is ONE HUNDREDTH of an inch thick?
Seriously, do some research on carbon fiber. The insulating properties of carbon fiber are NOT particularly good. Carbon fibers conduct heat very well, much better than plastics used in airboxes.
Are you actually implying that someone is making an airbox out of carbon fiber that is ONE HUNDREDTH of an inch thick?
Seriously, do some research on carbon fiber. The insulating properties of carbon fiber are NOT particularly good. Carbon fibers conduct heat very well, much better than plastics used in airboxes.
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 151
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From: California
>>Ummm, I quoted you from page 2. You assert that " Carbon fiber does not take on the heat at all like the stock plastic pipe."
>>
>>Are you actually implying that someone is making an airbox out of carbon fiber that is ONE HUNDREDTH of an inch thick?
>>
>>Seriously, do some research on carbon fiber. The insulating properties of carbon fiber are NOT particularly good. Carbon fibers conduct heat very well, much better than plastics used in airboxes.
I have no idea why I wrote the stock plastic pipe. I meant the airbox. Mistake on my side. I didnt say one hundreth. That would be .001. If you look I actually said .10 .
>>
>>Are you actually implying that someone is making an airbox out of carbon fiber that is ONE HUNDREDTH of an inch thick?
>>
>>Seriously, do some research on carbon fiber. The insulating properties of carbon fiber are NOT particularly good. Carbon fibers conduct heat very well, much better than plastics used in airboxes.
I have no idea why I wrote the stock plastic pipe. I meant the airbox. Mistake on my side. I didnt say one hundreth. That would be .001. If you look I actually said .10 .
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 151
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From: California
Typo on that last one. I actually put .01 which is correct originally. Last posting of .1 was incorrect. Most part for cars are made out of 1 to 2 layers of something close to 6 oz 3k carbon unless they use fiberglass with it also.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
First, please forgive me if this has already been discussed, or has undergone testing, but I have a question. I believe that many of us go with aftermkt intakes for two reasons: better flow, and cooler air.
But, since we are compressing that same air afterwards, this obviously heats it. If aftermkt intake X draws air that is on average 10 cooler than stock, will it come out of the SC at 10 degrees cooler than it would have under stock intake conditions? I would venture to guess that it would be cooler, but probably not the same 10 degrees. If that is so, I'd be curious to know how much we really are gaining. It is something, and with that worthwhile I suppose, but then cost enters the equation when talking "exotic."
I somehow think that cooling the air at the intake level marginally helps, while the increased flow probably contributes to most of the gains. Cooling after the SC is the bigger fish to fry...
_________________
2003 IB MCS
But, since we are compressing that same air afterwards, this obviously heats it. If aftermkt intake X draws air that is on average 10 cooler than stock, will it come out of the SC at 10 degrees cooler than it would have under stock intake conditions? I would venture to guess that it would be cooler, but probably not the same 10 degrees. If that is so, I'd be curious to know how much we really are gaining. It is something, and with that worthwhile I suppose, but then cost enters the equation when talking "exotic."
I somehow think that cooling the air at the intake level marginally helps, while the increased flow probably contributes to most of the gains. Cooling after the SC is the bigger fish to fry...
_________________
2003 IB MCS
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
TonyB wrote:
I couldn't agree more. I plan to do some more testing using different intakes as well as the *SHOCKING* 
idea of clamping a decent filter directly to the throttle body.
I somehow think that cooling the air at the intake level marginally helps, while the increased flow probably contributes to most of the gains.
idea of clamping a decent filter directly to the throttle body.
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: California
Carbon fiber isn't as great of an insulator as it is for not passing cold or heat on to what is on the opposite side. It works great in the cold. You will never get anything to freeze to it because unlike metal or other plastics you can't make it reach freezing in natural conditions. It works fairly well for heat considering how much lighter and thinner it normaly is when used compared to what it replaces. Try using a stock box at .01 thick.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
ocho9 wrote:
That makes no sense. An insulator is defined (in the heat sense) as something that prevents heat transfer. FWIW, heat always travels from hot to cold, not the other way around.
That also makes no sense. At normal room temperature, carbon fiber IS frozen. It's a solid. If you are talking about ice crystals sticking to it, that has nothing to do with its insulating properties. Teflon doesn't let ice crystals stick to it, but neither does teflon-coated copper .
That also makes no sense. Heat transfer coefficients are independent of thickness because heat transfer equations take thickness into account. So, a .01 in. thick sheet of CF would insulate worse than a .01 in thick sheet of polypropylene.
Carbon fiber isn't as great of an insulator as it is for not passing cold or heat on to what is on the opposite side.
It works great in the cold. You will never get anything to freeze to it because unlike metal or other plastics you can't make it reach freezing in natural conditions.
It works fairly well for heat considering how much lighter and thinner it normaly is when used compared to what it replaces. Try using a stock box at .01 thick.
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
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If rate of transfer is expressed as a vector (how much heat will pass over a period of time) and we know the flow rate of the intake at idle (worst case scenario) and the length of the intake, we should be able to calculate the temp increase for the two respective materials. Or at least take a swag at it.
CF doesn't retain heat very well (act as a heat sink/source) which I have to think helps. With the volume of air passing through I'd speculate that it's not a big factor. (DIY test. Touch a carbon fibre exhaust on a bike 30 secs after shutdown. No probs. Now touch a Ti exhaust 30 secs after shutdown. Go find a bandaid. Not that I've ever accidentally done this of course.)
Andy--good point on the filter on the TB. Always wondered why someone hasn't done this before. (Kinda along the same lines as Dgszweda's speculation that we have a long way to go!)
Let us know how it works out!
Jeff in ATL
CF doesn't retain heat very well (act as a heat sink/source) which I have to think helps. With the volume of air passing through I'd speculate that it's not a big factor. (DIY test. Touch a carbon fibre exhaust on a bike 30 secs after shutdown. No probs. Now touch a Ti exhaust 30 secs after shutdown. Go find a bandaid. Not that I've ever accidentally done this of course.)
Andy--good point on the filter on the TB. Always wondered why someone hasn't done this before. (Kinda along the same lines as Dgszweda's speculation that we have a long way to go!)
Let us know how it works out!
Jeff in ATL
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: California
Carbon fiber does not retain heat or cold well. I have used carbon fiber for years in production. You can pull it out of a press or oven at over 200 degrees F and it is cool within seconds. You pulll Polyethelene out at the same temp and it is hot for 10 minutes. Carbon does not hold heat really at all. So how well it works really depends on the engine bay temp. If it is super hot in there it will go through the carbon. But the carbon will be cool long before a metal or plastic air box.
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastics (CFRP) typically have a Thermal Conductivity in the range of 1.5 - 3.0 W/m.K
Polyethylene (UHMW PE) has a Thermal Conductivity in the range of 0.40-0.50 W/m.K
Polypropylene (PP) has a Thermal Conductivity oin the range of 0.10-0.30 W/m.K
So, carbon fiber tranfers heat between 3 and 8 times better than polyethylene and between 5 and 30 times better than polypropylene. This would seem to make CF a WORSE material for use in any sort of insulating capacity, not BETTER. CF that is thinner than its PP or PE alternatives would be a MUCH WORSE material for use in insulating an airbox.
Polyethylene (UHMW PE) has a Thermal Conductivity in the range of 0.40-0.50 W/m.K
Polypropylene (PP) has a Thermal Conductivity oin the range of 0.10-0.30 W/m.K
So, carbon fiber tranfers heat between 3 and 8 times better than polyethylene and between 5 and 30 times better than polypropylene. This would seem to make CF a WORSE material for use in any sort of insulating capacity, not BETTER. CF that is thinner than its PP or PE alternatives would be a MUCH WORSE material for use in insulating an airbox.
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 112
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From: Des Moines, IA
I'm going to throw something else in here to think about. I am assuming there is a intake air temp sensor somewhere on this vehicle. Where is it? Is it before the throttle body, or after? How bout before the intercooler or after when the air is actually the temp it will be entering the engine?
Only reason I ask is reading you guys talk about things that I've done for years on my Grand National (i.e. air filter on throttle body, which in my case means air filter directly on the compressor side of the turbo.) A friend of mine is the senior design engineer for F.A.S.T. and he discovered that if you moved the IAT from before the compressor(turbo or supercharger) and placed it in line to where the air is charged before entering the combustion chamber, he could get more control of air/fuel ratio by using what the engine was actually getting fed for air temp. We did this little trick on my GN and it did make a very nice difference. Actually picked up 1 mpg and the car idled and cruised a lot better. I noticed the biggest difference on the drag strip with this method.
Since I don't have my MCS yet, is there any room in the engine comp to just use an air filter directly on the throttle body? Is the MINI speed density or MAF? Inquiring minds want to know!!!
Travis
Only reason I ask is reading you guys talk about things that I've done for years on my Grand National (i.e. air filter on throttle body, which in my case means air filter directly on the compressor side of the turbo.) A friend of mine is the senior design engineer for F.A.S.T. and he discovered that if you moved the IAT from before the compressor(turbo or supercharger) and placed it in line to where the air is charged before entering the combustion chamber, he could get more control of air/fuel ratio by using what the engine was actually getting fed for air temp. We did this little trick on my GN and it did make a very nice difference. Actually picked up 1 mpg and the car idled and cruised a lot better. I noticed the biggest difference on the drag strip with this method.
Since I don't have my MCS yet, is there any room in the engine comp to just use an air filter directly on the throttle body? Is the MINI speed density or MAF? Inquiring minds want to know!!!
Travis
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Hi Travis, and a belated welcome to NAM!
After what Andy shared above (air intake/filter at the TB), I did a quick looksee moments ago. While it is certainly doable for testing purposes, I seriously doubt that a worthwhile unit could be designed to desirable gains. For the type of surface area one would want, there is simply no room at that spot.
I was contemplating running some plumbing to a filter away and down (a soft bend 90) to pick-up cool air down in the horn and fog light area. This space would also limit the size of the filter to somthing smaller than what I already have in the stock location (Rogue/Madness), not to mention losing the benefit of a direct TB connection as this route would be nearly as long and twisty as the stock filter/TB path... It would also entail some hacking, and just seems not worth it...
As mentioned earlier, I would love to see what the SC heats a 90 degree intake temp to, as compared to 100 or 110 degree, for example...
EDIT: the thought just occured to me that MAYBE a Pipecross, given it's amorphous-like shape, would be able to mate-up to the TB for testing, and if indeed intake temps are not highly important, this might prove to be a slick TBNCAI: Throttle Body Non-Cold Air Intake. I am not keen though on having the filter "open" as opposed to sealed against the hood or otherwise enclosed. I think it would be exposed to more debris this way... Maybe not an issue...
But, if one went this route, the intake box/space becomes availabe as new real estate to ponder
After what Andy shared above (air intake/filter at the TB), I did a quick looksee moments ago. While it is certainly doable for testing purposes, I seriously doubt that a worthwhile unit could be designed to desirable gains. For the type of surface area one would want, there is simply no room at that spot.
I was contemplating running some plumbing to a filter away and down (a soft bend 90) to pick-up cool air down in the horn and fog light area. This space would also limit the size of the filter to somthing smaller than what I already have in the stock location (Rogue/Madness), not to mention losing the benefit of a direct TB connection as this route would be nearly as long and twisty as the stock filter/TB path... It would also entail some hacking, and just seems not worth it...
As mentioned earlier, I would love to see what the SC heats a 90 degree intake temp to, as compared to 100 or 110 degree, for example...
EDIT: the thought just occured to me that MAYBE a Pipecross, given it's amorphous-like shape, would be able to mate-up to the TB for testing, and if indeed intake temps are not highly important, this might prove to be a slick TBNCAI: Throttle Body Non-Cold Air Intake. I am not keen though on having the filter "open" as opposed to sealed against the hood or otherwise enclosed. I think it would be exposed to more debris this way... Maybe not an issue...
But, if one went this route, the intake box/space becomes availabe as new real estate to ponder
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
FF2-EMTB,
Unlike the Buick Turbo 3.8, the MCS has its IAT in the manifold. It's actually combined with the MAP sensor in a single TMAP unit. Relocating it anywhere else would not be a good idea. The TMAP sensor is the black rectangle at the bottom of this pic:
Unlike the Buick Turbo 3.8, the MCS has its IAT in the manifold. It's actually combined with the MAP sensor in a single TMAP unit. Relocating it anywhere else would not be a good idea. The TMAP sensor is the black rectangle at the bottom of this pic:
So when does this go on sale??? I need this, one of my orcari scoops flew off my car today and broke when this car behind me ran over it.... So now i have reason to get this set up... WHEN CAN WE BUY THIS!!!
Thread Starter
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2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
Hi guys!
First of all, I would like to apologize for the lack of updates about this intake system. To be honest, there were a couple of manufacturing hurdles that we've overcome in the last couple of weeks, and I didn't want to post promise date after promise date until we had it all figured out. The kit is still 3-4 weeks out, and I have been keeping a list of interested parties. The designer has also made a few improvements on fitment, and we are 95% of the way there on the manufacturing.
Pricing for the kit will be between $350 and $600 for the full version, though we may decide to split the full version up into different components that you can purchase seperately (like the aluminum plates).
I will post more on the development of the intake (such as where you can buy, firm pricing, etc.) as we have the information.
If anyone has any questions, we can be reached at sales@benferperformance.com
Regards,
Dan Bennion
http://www.benferperformance.com
P.S. We did a dyno that yielded 11HP to the rear wheels. Here's a chart, and I am having the dyno shop do one that has the peak HP/TRQ values numerically compared vs. just a picture of the gain.
First of all, I would like to apologize for the lack of updates about this intake system. To be honest, there were a couple of manufacturing hurdles that we've overcome in the last couple of weeks, and I didn't want to post promise date after promise date until we had it all figured out. The kit is still 3-4 weeks out, and I have been keeping a list of interested parties. The designer has also made a few improvements on fitment, and we are 95% of the way there on the manufacturing.
Pricing for the kit will be between $350 and $600 for the full version, though we may decide to split the full version up into different components that you can purchase seperately (like the aluminum plates).
I will post more on the development of the intake (such as where you can buy, firm pricing, etc.) as we have the information.
If anyone has any questions, we can be reached at sales@benferperformance.com
Regards,
Dan Bennion
http://www.benferperformance.com
P.S. We did a dyno that yielded 11HP to the rear wheels. Here's a chart, and I am having the dyno shop do one that has the peak HP/TRQ values numerically compared vs. just a picture of the gain.
1st Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
>>>>
>>P.S. We did a dyno that yielded 11HP to the rear wheels. Here's a chart, and I am having the dyno shop do one that has the peak HP/TRQ values numerically compared vs. just a picture of the gain.
>>
>>P.S. We did a dyno that yielded 11HP to the rear wheels. Here's a chart, and I am having the dyno shop do one that has the peak HP/TRQ values numerically compared vs. just a picture of the gain.
>>
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: Naperville, IL
This thread has been quiet for awhile. I've emailed Benfer twice and both times it was sent back as undeliverable. I used info@ and sales@. Does anybody know anything else about this product?
It's not vaporhardware is it???
It's not vaporhardware is it???
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: Naperville, IL
This thread has been quiet for awhile. I've emailed Benfer twice and both times it was sent back as undeliverable. I used info@ and sales@. Does anybody know anything else about this product?
It's not vaporhardware is it???
It's not vaporhardware is it???
