Drivetrain It's all fun till someone loses a piston
#76
06-10-2011, 08:25 AM
I currently have a DoS CAI and whenever Way gets them in stock will have a Forge FMIC installed. I'm not looking for horsepower now, just a cooler more efficient engine. Whenever Alta supports the 2011's, I plan on buying one along with a turboback (possibly Alta's 3") and only running stage 1 (maybe 2 a time or two just for the experience). With these mods and running top-tier 93 octane and discounting the possibility of flawed OEM parts, should I really expect things to break?
I thought this whole thread was about increased HP = higher probability of engine failure due to heat. Alta even said that their tunes will increase the likelihood of engine failure. Not sure why you think Alta tune and Alta HP adding parts will make the engine run cooler and not increase the likelihood of breakage?
#78
06-10-2011, 08:50 AM
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As czar stated at his previous post, EGT and cylinder firing temps are the most interesting info which can tell you how much heat the motor is experiencing.
Having said that I should add that my EGTs with the JCW kit software were in the 1000oC range. That was pretty much the reason for a badly cracked stock MCS turbo back then. After the addition of a DP and a FMIC the EGTs stayed merely the same. But after the software tuning, which tends to run richer than stock, the EGTs dropped to 940oC even with higher than stock boost!
So:
DP+FMIC+JCW kit tune= 1000oC (0,9bar)
DP+FMIC+custom tune= 940oC (1,3bar)
All of that is always on 100RON.
However, after 10k of the above configuration I do have slight leakage on cylinders 2,3 and 4
My compression test and leak down test showed:
No. 1 cylinder 12,5bar/181psi (no leakage)
No. 2 cylinder 12,1bar/175psi (leaks)
No. 3 cylinder 11,8bar/171psi (leaks)
No. 4 cylinder 12,0bar/174psi (leaks)
And you can noticeably hear piston slap, when cold.
So, I am assuming this is the beginning of the end...?
Having said that I should add that my EGTs with the JCW kit software were in the 1000oC range. That was pretty much the reason for a badly cracked stock MCS turbo back then. After the addition of a DP and a FMIC the EGTs stayed merely the same. But after the software tuning, which tends to run richer than stock, the EGTs dropped to 940oC even with higher than stock boost!
So:
DP+FMIC+JCW kit tune= 1000oC (0,9bar)
DP+FMIC+custom tune= 940oC (1,3bar)
All of that is always on 100RON.
However, after 10k of the above configuration I do have slight leakage on cylinders 2,3 and 4
My compression test and leak down test showed:
No. 1 cylinder 12,5bar/181psi (no leakage)
No. 2 cylinder 12,1bar/175psi (leaks)
No. 3 cylinder 11,8bar/171psi (leaks)
No. 4 cylinder 12,0bar/174psi (leaks)
And you can noticeably hear piston slap, when cold.
So, I am assuming this is the beginning of the end...?
#79
06-10-2011, 08:53 AM
An oversized intercooler will reduce combustion temperatures compared to a stock one.
Dave
#80
06-10-2011, 09:30 AM
Jesus! If i saw 1000C i would be very worried! How are you reading this, and what gauge do you have? We always say 1650F is a good limit for any engine which is 900C. During our testing a couple years back, tuning a stage 1 or stage 3 car with the EGT probe mounted 1.5" from the port we NEVER Saw above 850C or 1560F. With our AP tunes that run the ECU richer than stock for most of the RPM the EGTs are actually cooler and are safer on your motor than the stock tune.
How are you reading yours? 1,5" from which port?
#81
06-10-2011, 10:50 AM
When I started this post it was not to say don't tune the car, I was issuing a warning to not push it past it's limits.
I can see how a busted up piston can deter some one from modding at all, but there is really no need for this. There just needs to be an understanding that there is a limit the engine will handle and it should be avoided.
The R56 is not running at 12 PSI for reliability. It's at that power level because it suits the needs of what MINI's target demo is. Good MPG and some fun. For those more interested in fun the JCW was launched.
Now originally the JCW was supposed to get the same engine as the S, just like the R53. So it stands some over engineering took place in the design of the Prince engine to handle this. However after installing the bigger turbo, MINI started to blow engines and had to redesign the engine with new pistons. Now the MCS is left with an engine that was designed for a little more power, but is only set up to meet the needs of there target demo.
That's good for us because we can take advantage of this and push the car a little harder and stay relatively safe. We just can't go too crazy with it or things happen like the busted piston.
It should also be clear that when we speak in terms of what PSI the turbo will be producing, we are referring to the expected PSI seen at full throttle. This does not mean the spike. So if I say that that particular car was running 20 PSI. That means when I smash the gas it will read in the range of 20 PSI and may spike for a second even higher.
Now 20 PSI is tricky on the stock turbo. To set up a map to run this safely the gain will be very minimal. From what we know already in terms of timing , EGT's AF/R and readily available gas. We can not push past a certain point. At that point most tuners will agree its better to sack the few HP, back the boost of a tad and run the car safer. No point in pushing hot air if it doesn't do any thing. This leads me into what if the engine is producing power at 20 PSI. Well since we already know that there is only a 1-2 HP gain to be had from a safe tune, logic would state that any tune at 20 that's making a power gain worth running that high would be un-safe Hence 20 PSI killed the piston.
I can see how a busted up piston can deter some one from modding at all, but there is really no need for this. There just needs to be an understanding that there is a limit the engine will handle and it should be avoided.
The R56 is not running at 12 PSI for reliability. It's at that power level because it suits the needs of what MINI's target demo is. Good MPG and some fun. For those more interested in fun the JCW was launched.
Now originally the JCW was supposed to get the same engine as the S, just like the R53. So it stands some over engineering took place in the design of the Prince engine to handle this. However after installing the bigger turbo, MINI started to blow engines and had to redesign the engine with new pistons. Now the MCS is left with an engine that was designed for a little more power, but is only set up to meet the needs of there target demo.
That's good for us because we can take advantage of this and push the car a little harder and stay relatively safe. We just can't go too crazy with it or things happen like the busted piston.
It should also be clear that when we speak in terms of what PSI the turbo will be producing, we are referring to the expected PSI seen at full throttle. This does not mean the spike. So if I say that that particular car was running 20 PSI. That means when I smash the gas it will read in the range of 20 PSI and may spike for a second even higher.
Now 20 PSI is tricky on the stock turbo. To set up a map to run this safely the gain will be very minimal. From what we know already in terms of timing , EGT's AF/R and readily available gas. We can not push past a certain point. At that point most tuners will agree its better to sack the few HP, back the boost of a tad and run the car safer. No point in pushing hot air if it doesn't do any thing. This leads me into what if the engine is producing power at 20 PSI. Well since we already know that there is only a 1-2 HP gain to be had from a safe tune, logic would state that any tune at 20 that's making a power gain worth running that high would be un-safe Hence 20 PSI killed the piston.
#82
06-10-2011, 10:57 AM
No. That extra heat energy from the higher inlet air temperature coming from a stock intercooler goes right into the combustion chamber and adds to the combustion temperature. It's simple physics.
An oversized intercooler will reduce combustion temperatures compared to a stock one.
Dave
An oversized intercooler will reduce combustion temperatures compared to a stock one.
Dave
#83
06-10-2011, 11:06 AM
When I started this post it was not to say don't tune the car, I was issuing a warning to not push it past it's limits.
I can see how a busted up piston can deter some one from modding at all, but there is really no need for this. There just needs to be an understanding that there is a limit the engine will handle and it should be avoided.
The R56 is not running at 12 PSI for reliability. It's at that power level because it suits the needs of what MINI's target demo is. Good MPG and some fun. For those more interested in fun the JCW was launched.
Now originally the JCW was supposed to get the same engine as the S, just like the R53. So it stands some over engineering took place in the design of the Prince engine to handle this. However after installing the bigger turbo, MINI started to blow engines and had to redesign the engine with new pistons. Now the MCS is left with an engine that was designed for a little more power, but is only set up to meet the needs of there target demo.
That's good for us because we can take advantage of this and push the car a little harder and stay relatively safe. We just can't go too crazy with it or things happen like the busted piston.
It should also be clear that when we speak in terms of what PSI the turbo will be producing, we are referring to the expected PSI seen at full throttle. This does not mean the spike. So if I say that that particular car was running 20 PSI. That means when I smash the gas it will read in the range of 20 PSI and may spike for a second even higher.
Now 20 PSI is tricky on the stock turbo. To set up a map to run this safely the gain will be very minimal. From what we know already in terms of timing , EGT's AF/R and readily available gas. We can not push past a certain point. At that point most tuners will agree its better to sack the few HP, back the boost of a tad and run the car safer. No point in pushing hot air if it doesn't do any thing. This leads me into what if the engine is producing power at 20 PSI. Well since we already know that there is only a 1-2 HP gain to be had from a safe tune, logic would state that any tune at 20 that's making a power gain worth running that high would be un-safe Hence 20 PSI killed the piston.
I can see how a busted up piston can deter some one from modding at all, but there is really no need for this. There just needs to be an understanding that there is a limit the engine will handle and it should be avoided.
The R56 is not running at 12 PSI for reliability. It's at that power level because it suits the needs of what MINI's target demo is. Good MPG and some fun. For those more interested in fun the JCW was launched.
Now originally the JCW was supposed to get the same engine as the S, just like the R53. So it stands some over engineering took place in the design of the Prince engine to handle this. However after installing the bigger turbo, MINI started to blow engines and had to redesign the engine with new pistons. Now the MCS is left with an engine that was designed for a little more power, but is only set up to meet the needs of there target demo.
That's good for us because we can take advantage of this and push the car a little harder and stay relatively safe. We just can't go too crazy with it or things happen like the busted piston.
It should also be clear that when we speak in terms of what PSI the turbo will be producing, we are referring to the expected PSI seen at full throttle. This does not mean the spike. So if I say that that particular car was running 20 PSI. That means when I smash the gas it will read in the range of 20 PSI and may spike for a second even higher.
Now 20 PSI is tricky on the stock turbo. To set up a map to run this safely the gain will be very minimal. From what we know already in terms of timing , EGT's AF/R and readily available gas. We can not push past a certain point. At that point most tuners will agree its better to sack the few HP, back the boost of a tad and run the car safer. No point in pushing hot air if it doesn't do any thing. This leads me into what if the engine is producing power at 20 PSI. Well since we already know that there is only a 1-2 HP gain to be had from a safe tune, logic would state that any tune at 20 that's making a power gain worth running that high would be un-safe Hence 20 PSI killed the piston.
Sorry to have another vendor dump on you accusing you of business grabbing.
#84
06-10-2011, 11:26 AM
I for one appreciate this information and now am more aware of the potential problems with over boosting. And these potential problems seem to be already reached by some of the power adding capability currently available. Too many people on this forum, I believe, are totally unaware of potential consequences of these gagets and you hopefully have made them aware.
Sorry to have another vendor dump on you accusing you of business grabbing.
Sorry to have another vendor dump on you accusing you of business grabbing.
Alta has actually done a pretty good job at keeping things safe. Usually the only complaint I get is that the maps are too conservative. This is a matter of opinion though as its pretty irresponsible for some one to give out canned tunes expected to push the limits. Originally the whole AP project was started with the expectation more tuners would buy the tuning software allowing for actual dyno time to fine tune maps to individual cars.
#85
06-10-2011, 01:46 PM
#86
06-10-2011, 03:05 PM
What are the stock PSI levels of a factory JCW @ WOT and at the spike? I keep finding different numbers. Is it any safer in a JCW to push the levels a little higher than in the MCS?
Thank you for all of your info. I have always been nervous about tuning my car for these reasons, and I probably still will, but I will definitely take it slow and be way more careful after reading this thread.
Thank you for all of your info. I have always been nervous about tuning my car for these reasons, and I probably still will, but I will definitely take it slow and be way more careful after reading this thread.
#87
06-10-2011, 03:23 PM
#88
06-10-2011, 03:36 PM
He's basically saying....you have to pay to play. Tune the car and expect to see things break (not a definite, but good chance).
When I realized I had something wrong, I was sitting there at a stoplight....I instantly thought "oh god, it finally happened...
" Then I got home, pulled my plugs...and #3 was covered in oil, and then I knew...yes it finally did happen.
I always felt it was bound to happen, especially after I put the JCW turbo on. While I agree with czar 110% on most everything he says...he does make it sound like you can't do anything to the car and not expect it to break. This shouldn't be the case, but unfortunately, this seems to be true with the R56. People with simple tunes are blowing motors...its kind of ridiculous in my opinion. Especially when you hear of stock motors seeing the same failure.
Coming from the VW/Audi world...people can run 20 psi all day long and not break pistons. I will stand by my thinking that these motors are junk....the threshold should not be that close. People should be blowing turbos before they are blowing motors. No one on here has done anything that drastic to where they should be blowing motors as much as people are. Maybe with a turbo swap it's understandable...but I don't know many people that have. You have the few and far between GT28RS guys that can't get it to work right long enough to even see if the motor can take it. And other than that you have a few people running the Alta billet turbo or other various reworked K03 based turbos...but they haven't been running long enough to see failure. I ran the JCW turbo for about 10k before I lost a piston...and about 30k miles tuned on the stock turbo prior to that.
As far as keeping things cool in the motor...the obvious are FMIC and water/meth. They both will help, but this will not cover up an inherent poor design and the fact that you are doubling the amount of boost (read:heat & stress) the motor was designed to see.
When I realized I had something wrong, I was sitting there at a stoplight....I instantly thought "oh god, it finally happened...
" Then I got home, pulled my plugs...and #3 was covered in oil, and then I knew...yes it finally did happen.I always felt it was bound to happen, especially after I put the JCW turbo on. While I agree with czar 110% on most everything he says...he does make it sound like you can't do anything to the car and not expect it to break. This shouldn't be the case, but unfortunately, this seems to be true with the R56. People with simple tunes are blowing motors...its kind of ridiculous in my opinion. Especially when you hear of stock motors seeing the same failure.
Coming from the VW/Audi world...people can run 20 psi all day long and not break pistons. I will stand by my thinking that these motors are junk....the threshold should not be that close. People should be blowing turbos before they are blowing motors. No one on here has done anything that drastic to where they should be blowing motors as much as people are. Maybe with a turbo swap it's understandable...but I don't know many people that have. You have the few and far between GT28RS guys that can't get it to work right long enough to even see if the motor can take it. And other than that you have a few people running the Alta billet turbo or other various reworked K03 based turbos...but they haven't been running long enough to see failure. I ran the JCW turbo for about 10k before I lost a piston...and about 30k miles tuned on the stock turbo prior to that.
As far as keeping things cool in the motor...the obvious are FMIC and water/meth. They both will help, but this will not cover up an inherent poor design and the fact that you are doubling the amount of boost (read:heat & stress) the motor was designed to see.
#89
06-10-2011, 03:42 PM
I have read all the posts in this thread and hope it will continue to be a good source of info for turbo Mini owners that want to improve performance and limit exposure to engine failure as much as possible.
IMO the comment about an attempt to "grab bussiness" is likely off target. I think the discussion of engine failure due to tuning is going to drive more owners away from the aftermaket than the number of owners it will motivates to spend $1000's to prevent possible damage from tuning.
Mini owners that choose to not add engine failure risk due to tuning may read this thread and say "NO WAY". I can see a case where those Mini owner's would not post about being turned off by the high cost to add such a small amount of performance in the safe way that is being explained in this thread.
IMO the comment about an attempt to "grab bussiness" is likely off target. I think the discussion of engine failure due to tuning is going to drive more owners away from the aftermaket than the number of owners it will motivates to spend $1000's to prevent possible damage from tuning.
Mini owners that choose to not add engine failure risk due to tuning may read this thread and say "NO WAY". I can see a case where those Mini owner's would not post about being turned off by the high cost to add such a small amount of performance in the safe way that is being explained in this thread.
Last edited by Octane; 06-10-2011 at 04:03 PM.
#91
06-10-2011, 06:14 PM
I see your point....I probably didn't explain myself correctly...
But the fact that cars from other manufacturer's can run tune's almost doubling the boost with no issue is my point. As I said, in the VAG world...you are 95% more likely to blow the turbo before your blow a piston.
You take a poor design, and then stress it by running it outside the parameters that it was designed for and you are bound for failure.
But the fact that cars from other manufacturer's can run tune's almost doubling the boost with no issue is my point. As I said, in the VAG world...you are 95% more likely to blow the turbo before your blow a piston.
You take a poor design, and then stress it by running it outside the parameters that it was designed for and you are bound for failure.
#92
06-10-2011, 06:31 PM
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I see your point....I probably didn't explain myself correctly...
But the fact that cars from other manufacturer's can run tune's almost doubling the boost with no issue is my point. As I said, in the VAG world...you are 95% more likely to blow the turbo before your blow a piston.
You take a poor design, and then stress it by running it outside the parameters that it was designed for and you are bound for failure.
But the fact that cars from other manufacturer's can run tune's almost doubling the boost with no issue is my point. As I said, in the VAG world...you are 95% more likely to blow the turbo before your blow a piston.
You take a poor design, and then stress it by running it outside the parameters that it was designed for and you are bound for failure.
#93
06-10-2011, 07:02 PM
I see your point....I probably didn't explain myself correctly...
But the fact that cars from other manufacturer's can run tune's almost doubling the boost with no issue is my point. As I said, in the VAG world...you are 95% more likely to blow the turbo before your blow a piston.
You take a poor design, and then stress it by running it outside the parameters that it was designed for and you are bound for failure.
But the fact that cars from other manufacturer's can run tune's almost doubling the boost with no issue is my point. As I said, in the VAG world...you are 95% more likely to blow the turbo before your blow a piston.
You take a poor design, and then stress it by running it outside the parameters that it was designed for and you are bound for failure.
. IMHO, fast is being able to run around a track at the highest possible average speed, but that's why I love Miatas.the amount of boost you run isn't going to directly correlate to great performance. It just means you'll be able to wallow through a corner even more.
My Mazdaspeed Miata can't run more than 12psi without some real work, but it'll take you to the edge of your nerves. Weeeeee
#94
06-11-2011, 06:48 AM
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Although I appreciate the content here, seeing a few cases doesn't really concern me too much but that doesn't mean by any stretch that I am in the right. I think, at this point, that there are so many variables which can contribute to a failure like this that maybe we are going overboard? Maybe not. Some of the guys out in the field are a whole hell of a lot more knowledgable than I am but I am not willing to give up the performance just yet. I think the key is to keep your car in tip top shape and run within all of the parameters. More risk....less reward. I for one have opted to stay fairly mild. Stage I tune with downpipe, exhuast, IC and add-ons. Any more than that and I think that you are shortening lifespan of many items.
So...I think that the advice and insight is good and appreciated by all but there's a line that is crossed where you are really at risk of breaking things because you are outside of the design envelope.
Hopefully, there won't be more and more stories of cracked piston sidewalls showing up under MILD conditions....because it will then be time to let the car go.
So...I think that the advice and insight is good and appreciated by all but there's a line that is crossed where you are really at risk of breaking things because you are outside of the design envelope.
Hopefully, there won't be more and more stories of cracked piston sidewalls showing up under MILD conditions....because it will then be time to let the car go.
#95
06-11-2011, 08:29 AM
That may be, but a few things about the stock (non JCW) engine made me nervous enough to stay with my 2006 and mod it rather than get an R56.
1. Aluminum block engine
2.The fact that the JCW required beefier internals to make more power--and they're not even making that much more power than the stock R56. That in and of itself would make me think twice about modding an R56 too heavily.
3. The fact that a well respected vendor (won't throw out names, but if he takes credit for it I'll back him up) predicted piston failures in a private conversation well before this thread came about, and he based that on how the more aggressive tunes were making power by tapping into the overboost.
1. Aluminum block engine
2.The fact that the JCW required beefier internals to make more power--and they're not even making that much more power than the stock R56. That in and of itself would make me think twice about modding an R56 too heavily.
3. The fact that a well respected vendor (won't throw out names, but if he takes credit for it I'll back him up) predicted piston failures in a private conversation well before this thread came about, and he based that on how the more aggressive tunes were making power by tapping into the overboost.
#96
06-11-2011, 08:47 AM
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That may be, but a few things about the stock (non JCW) engine made me nervous enough to stay with my 2006 and mod it rather than get an R56.
1. Aluminum block engine
2.The fact that the JCW required beefier internals to make more power--and they're not even making that much more power than the stock R56. That in and of itself would make me think twice about modding an R56 too heavily.
3. The fact that a well respected vendor (won't throw out names, but if he takes credit for it I'll back him up) predicted piston failures in a private conversation well before this thread came about, and he based that on how the more aggressive tunes were making power by tapping into the overboost.
1. Aluminum block engine
2.The fact that the JCW required beefier internals to make more power--and they're not even making that much more power than the stock R56. That in and of itself would make me think twice about modding an R56 too heavily.
3. The fact that a well respected vendor (won't throw out names, but if he takes credit for it I'll back him up) predicted piston failures in a private conversation well before this thread came about, and he based that on how the more aggressive tunes were making power by tapping into the overboost.
#98
06-11-2011, 10:17 AM
#99
06-11-2011, 10:26 AM
Pistons and rings are different. I think there may be sleeves in that too....
Aluminum is light, it is strong, but throw heat into the equation, and funny things happen with aluminum over time.
#100
06-11-2011, 03:05 PM
What are the stock PSI levels of a factory JCW @ WOT and at the spike? I keep finding different numbers. Is it any safer in a JCW to push the levels a little higher than in the MCS?
Thank you for all of your info. I have always been nervous about tuning my car for these reasons, and I probably still will, but I will definitely take it slow and be way more careful after reading this thread.
Thank you for all of your info. I have always been nervous about tuning my car for these reasons, and I probably still will, but I will definitely take it slow and be way more careful after reading this thread.
I've been one the people to push the JCW as far as it would go. I've been running a tune, billet turbo, FMIC, and so on that peaks at about 28psi safely. By "safely" I mean engine knock, A/F, etc all been in check. This past Thursday I lost cyl 3. I expect a lot of I told you so's. These pistons just cant handle the combustion pressures even if engine knock isn't present.
So the next step for me is to pull the engine and rebuild. I have no regrets because I expected this to happen. I see this as the opportunity to rebuild and start making some serious HP. My next step is 300whp. Yes I will take lots of pictures of the aftermath and the mods as I go along and post results for those who are interested.
Ray