Drivetrain PCV hose delete.
4th Gear
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 482
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From: Ephrata Washington
A coalescing filter is as you say the most effective way to separate any liquid, in this case oil, from the crankcase vapour, that said, I don't see you reasoning behind your statement.
Yes it's perfectly practical to produce a coalescing filtration system, for the automotive applications, as that's exactly what I did, I designed and produced my own coalescing filter, specifically for my N14 engines, and it filters out to 99.9% separation.
The probable reason most aftermarket companies don't produce a effective OCC other than supplying an empty can, maybe sometimes with a baffle plate in it too, is that they won't have the knowledge or understanding about oil/air separation, or calculated the necessary volume and flow taking into account the % rate of wear for compressional blow by, for any given engine, it's a science not guess work!
Yes it's perfectly practical to produce a coalescing filtration system, for the automotive applications, as that's exactly what I did, I designed and produced my own coalescing filter, specifically for my N14 engines, and it filters out to 99.9% separation.
The probable reason most aftermarket companies don't produce a effective OCC other than supplying an empty can, maybe sometimes with a baffle plate in it too, is that they won't have the knowledge or understanding about oil/air separation, or calculated the necessary volume and flow taking into account the % rate of wear for compressional blow by, for any given engine, it's a science not guess work!
I was just trying to help a little here in the understanding.
It has always been the easy way just dump the fumes/blow by back to the engine and burn it. It is a win -win for manufactures it shuts up the government and causes damage to engines so you end up with repair bills. Keep in mind that is not just oil there is a lot of carbon in there too.
Last edited by johnf36; Sep 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM. Reason: forgot something
4th Gear
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 482
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From: Ephrata Washington
Your right in your assessment that not venting into the intake is the best route. The only reason it does is for emissions.
The pics I posted on page three are exactly what your talking about. The only reason it's to a vented can and not just the breather is to prevent an oily mess.
The pics I posted on page three are exactly what your talking about. The only reason it's to a vented can and not just the breather is to prevent an oily mess.
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4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 506
Likes: 30
From: UK
Interesting, maybe we should talk. I have be running my system for 5 years now on my W11 with good results.
I was just trying to help a little here in the understanding.
It has always been the easy way just dump the fumes/blow by back to the engine and burn it. It is a win -win for manufactures it shuts up the government and causes damage to engines so you end up with repair bills. Keep in mind that is not just oil there is a lot of carbon in there too.
I was just trying to help a little here in the understanding.
It has always been the easy way just dump the fumes/blow by back to the engine and burn it. It is a win -win for manufactures it shuts up the government and causes damage to engines so you end up with repair bills. Keep in mind that is not just oil there is a lot of carbon in there too.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
From: Kansas City
so are we all saying that the best option for performance and engine longevity is to gather all the pcv lines into one location (i.e.. a catch can) and then have one line venting from the can to atmosphere (say under the car with a filter on it)?
b.
b.
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 436
Likes: 2
From: Garden Grove, CA
It's the best option for the purposes stated, but keep in mind it's illegal and can be stinky. Neither are a big deal for most that go this route, but it is something to keep in mind when getting the car smoged.
6th Gear
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 87
From: Pacific NW
Pre-1968 cars had a "Draft Tube", it was a pipe that came out of the tappet cover and led under the car, where air moving by the end of the tube pulled the crankcase gasses out. No filter, no catch can.
Dave
Dave
Alliance Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 661
Likes: 24
From: Port Orchard, WA.
Yep, I have had several of those vintage cars. Prior to that there was a breather in the valve cover just venting under the hood.
Stephen
Last edited by SMOG; Oct 1, 2011 at 04:45 AM.
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 298
Likes: 3
From: Petersburg, Michigan
SO in theory. I could block off the inlet manifold and the turbo inlet hose and run two VTA hoses under the car with breather filters? Yes?
And if anyone needs the caps I am stationed in Germany and have ready access to a dealer.
And if anyone needs the caps I am stationed in Germany and have ready access to a dealer.
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4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 506
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From: UK
Hmm not such a good idea after all, why not simply get yourself a good OCC ?
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 298
Likes: 3
From: Petersburg, Michigan
In theory yes, that said, would it be a good idea to allow oil deposits to be dumped onto the road surface, when your very tiny breather filters become saturated ? As once you run the lines under the car, out of sight out of mind!!
Hmm not such a good idea after all, why not simply get yourself a good OCC ?
Hmm not such a good idea after all, why not simply get yourself a good OCC ?
It is my understanding that one valve is open at die and the other is open un any amount of throttle. Also that if you remove the vacuum from the passenger side hose that it will no lover open as it is a one way valve. I know you said that you do not recommend capping off the passenger side if the car gets tracked. Any info on how the valves work or in which order?
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 298
Likes: 3
From: Petersburg, Michigan
Went ahead and did the PCV re-direct. Have been driving for about a week with no issues or CEL's from the disconnected sensor on the turbo inlet hose. I Sea Foamed the car prior to doing the re-direct until I can get in and hand clean. Car feels smoother and just all around healthier. I will report back with updates if anything new develops.
Neutral
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Coming from the BMW community, one of our members tried several catch cans and found that he had pressure in his valve cover as measured at the oil fill cap when the PCV was not connected properly or if the inline catch can was too restrictive. Believe it or not the slight vacuum in our turbo inlet pipes where our pcvs were directed to was enough to pull the unwanted vapor/fuel/water/etc out of the crankcase. Since his testing our available catch cans have concentrated on increased tube diameter and baffled cans with good flow rather than just dumping the vapor to atmosphere.
6th Gear
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 87
From: Pacific NW
I asked the shop foreman at my MINI dealer. There was a problem with water vapor, in the crankcase vapors, freezing right there where the PCV line attaches to the much colder air in the turbocharger inlet hose.
There is old thread here where the purpose of that device was being argued. I was at my dealer getting my free annual inspection and oil change and I asked about it.
Dave
There is old thread here where the purpose of that device was being argued. I was at my dealer getting my free annual inspection and oil change and I asked about it.
Dave
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 298
Likes: 3
From: Petersburg, Michigan
Awesome. Thank you for the info Dave. How ever now I have a dilema. My hose is running under the car and there is no way the heater will reach to the bottom. Maybe that is for Extreme cold climates? Maybe it will cool enough by the time it reaches the bottom of the hose to not freeze? One way to find out I guess.
Ok try this example instead, last time, so you and your partner are having a fun time in your car, doors and windows all closed (sealed compartment) just like the oil catch can, it's hot in your car and cool outside, what do you get forming on the windows inside your car ? condensation, yes ?
Right with that thought now in your mind, lets transfer that same thermal effect, between hot and cool temperature difference (condensation/sweating) to the HOT oil mist residue passing through your Aluminum oil catch can, HOT on the inside from the passing through HOT oil mist residue, and a cooler temperature on the outside of the oil catch can, the temperature difference is enough to create condensation to form on the inside of your Aluminum oil catch can, yes ? surely this time you get it!
And if that's not simple enough, somebody else help Dave please.
Right with that thought now in your mind, lets transfer that same thermal effect, between hot and cool temperature difference (condensation/sweating) to the HOT oil mist residue passing through your Aluminum oil catch can, HOT on the inside from the passing through HOT oil mist residue, and a cooler temperature on the outside of the oil catch can, the temperature difference is enough to create condensation to form on the inside of your Aluminum oil catch can, yes ? surely this time you get it!
And if that's not simple enough, somebody else help Dave please.
Yes, I understand that the oil catch can is cooler and that the oil and water vapor condenses on the inside of the catch can, heck, it's how a catch can is supposed to work! A plastic or insulated oil catch can wouldn't be a very good one. That oil and water vapor is still coming from the engine and no where else. That's the stuff I'm trying to keep out of my intake system by installing the oil catch can in the first place.
As you could see from the stuff I collected, about half of that is oil. That is what didn't get into my intercooler and coat the inside of it, reducing it's efficiency, it didn't get into the turbocharger and it didn't get into the engine.
Dave
As you could see from the stuff I collected, about half of that is oil. That is what didn't get into my intercooler and coat the inside of it, reducing it's efficiency, it didn't get into the turbocharger and it didn't get into the engine.
Dave
What Czar is trying to say is the water is actually a by-product from the oil catch can. If you have a cold beer in the hot summer day outside, you must agree condensation forms on the outside of the bottle.. that condensation isn't coming from "water" through the glass bottle of course, its simply the air condensating and creating water droplets. You also agree theres air within your engine, right? And the vapor that blows by includes air? So water can form on a cold surface when a hot fluid (air is a fluid as well) and/or hot vapor gas passes through the cold surface.. the cold surface being the oil catch can. This is the same idea as to why condensation could form in your oil, because the engine has not warmed up to temperature before letting it cool back down.
So, if the oil catch can's cold surface is creating the condensation of water, then, if there were no catch can, there would be no chance for the condensation of water to occur, correct? (Aside from short drives). Based on your theory of the water coming from the engine, then many of us would have likely hydrolocked our cars by now, and have intercoolers filled with water.