Drivetrain ns1/ns2 cam question
we USED to make them but found out our cams were ALREADY on the proper lobe center.........something the regrinds CANNOT do.
No Jan it is not incorrect information. The numbers are in fact correct as advertised based on 1.75 rocker ratio. *I took your indirect advice talked to NITRO aka Nitrominis the designer of the NS cams and he explained how to convert to the specification using the actual stock MINIs rocker ratio's and my cam card that I received with my NS 1 cam. Here they are. The NS 1 spec’s.
If you supplied cam cards for your cams then others could do the same with your cam as well.
NS1 : Lobe lift *5.4356 I / 5.8928 ex
Lift at Valve : 1.64 x lobe lift = 8.912 *****valve lift Int
********************* * 1.44 x lobe lift =* 8.4836** *valve lift ex
*
If you supplied cam cards for your cams then others could do the same with your cam as well.
NS1 : Lobe lift *5.4356 I / 5.8928 ex
Lift at Valve : 1.64 x lobe lift = 8.912 *****valve lift Int
********************* * 1.44 x lobe lift =* 8.4836** *valve lift ex
*
Thank you for proving the cam card is a joke for anyone looking at the advertised numbers. I'm sure the people looking at this can now figure out it's not worth the paper it's printed on
Btw..... What adjustable cam gear are you running? Your cam was ground with a 110 lobe center for those numbers
Thanks again for helping the forum get through the muddy waters
Been there done that
Newman was better and cheaper
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,362
Likes: 1
From: Winston-Salem, NC
So that would leave grinding away the bottom/other side but don't you need that?
What you do...
is grind down the base circle. Then you have the added height to work with. Yes it is possible to remove too much from the base circle, but there is meat there that can be safely removed. Do you need that? No.
Here's some interesting history... Way back when, with V-block engines with the cam in the valley, you had to do regrinds to get really high lifts. This was because doing a high lift cam with a stock base circle would result in cams that wouldn't fit through the cam bearings. This isn't a problem with the Tritec because of how the cams are held, but for those that think that regrinds are cheap used cams, they are anything but, and there is a very, very long history of making real power gains using reground camshafts.
Couple other comments. "Advertized specs" are just that. They are what is considered a guide for the eye, as durations aren't quoted at standard lifts and on and on. Another thing to keep in mind is that looking at the duration at some low lift and max lift is a very incomplete picture of a cam profile. One still can do a lot with the shape of the lobe. So not all cams with the same actual duration at say, 0.050" lift and same max lobe height will have the same performance behaviours. The numbers are a place to start, but are far from a complete description of a camshaft.
It dissapoints me that this has turned into such a pissing match. The NS cams are designed to give really good torque numbers in the midrange for how most really drive thier cars. The NS2 is biased to a bit of a higher RPM range than the NS1. They are done as regrinds because this results in a more economical package that appeals to many buyers. They are not the best camshaft for every application, nor do we maintain that there is such a thing as a universal best cam (if there was such a thing, then each cam company would only make one cam per engine type! Take a look at what's out there for a small block chevy for example, there must be THOUSANDS of cam profiles for that engine! And most of them are very good fits for particular use cases and budgets.)
Now, I'm a bit baffled about a couple things. Variable valve timing (dynamic motion of the cam timing) is done because advancing or retarding a cam will move the torque peak around. (This is why the N/A Prince engine has a pretty good torque curve for the displacement it has, and why pretty much every engine that is coming out now has some form of dynamic valve timing built in.)Not needing an adjustable cam gear means that one can never get the advantage of tuning the peak torque RPM, as it is fixed by the grind. Changing cam timing is a tried and true way of biasing a camshaft for different use cases. Why is that no longer a valid way to tune power? sure, it's not really that important to those on the street, but real changes in engine dynamics can be had with adjusting cam timing. It's a royal PITA to really do well though.
Anyway, I really hope that the tread can calm down a bit.
Couple other points....
What's a race cam? A cam in a racecar! Really, that's the definition. While here on the boards it seems that the de-facto definition is a cam that is extreme enough to require tuning to idle, there really is no "standard" definition of what a race cam is! Anyone going racing will choose a cam that is best suited to optimize the engine performance in the RPM range that will do the best to get the car around the track faster. For road course racing, that is probably something that is optimized for high RPM work. For street driving, you want grunt at a lower RPM range to give the car some scoot off the line. For AutoX, probably something in between, depends on the course layout.
My advice to those looking for a cam for thier car? Be really honest with yourself about how you use the car and choose appropriate to your budget and needs. Then have fun!
Matt
Here's some interesting history... Way back when, with V-block engines with the cam in the valley, you had to do regrinds to get really high lifts. This was because doing a high lift cam with a stock base circle would result in cams that wouldn't fit through the cam bearings. This isn't a problem with the Tritec because of how the cams are held, but for those that think that regrinds are cheap used cams, they are anything but, and there is a very, very long history of making real power gains using reground camshafts.
Couple other comments. "Advertized specs" are just that. They are what is considered a guide for the eye, as durations aren't quoted at standard lifts and on and on. Another thing to keep in mind is that looking at the duration at some low lift and max lift is a very incomplete picture of a cam profile. One still can do a lot with the shape of the lobe. So not all cams with the same actual duration at say, 0.050" lift and same max lobe height will have the same performance behaviours. The numbers are a place to start, but are far from a complete description of a camshaft.
It dissapoints me that this has turned into such a pissing match. The NS cams are designed to give really good torque numbers in the midrange for how most really drive thier cars. The NS2 is biased to a bit of a higher RPM range than the NS1. They are done as regrinds because this results in a more economical package that appeals to many buyers. They are not the best camshaft for every application, nor do we maintain that there is such a thing as a universal best cam (if there was such a thing, then each cam company would only make one cam per engine type! Take a look at what's out there for a small block chevy for example, there must be THOUSANDS of cam profiles for that engine! And most of them are very good fits for particular use cases and budgets.)
Now, I'm a bit baffled about a couple things. Variable valve timing (dynamic motion of the cam timing) is done because advancing or retarding a cam will move the torque peak around. (This is why the N/A Prince engine has a pretty good torque curve for the displacement it has, and why pretty much every engine that is coming out now has some form of dynamic valve timing built in.)Not needing an adjustable cam gear means that one can never get the advantage of tuning the peak torque RPM, as it is fixed by the grind. Changing cam timing is a tried and true way of biasing a camshaft for different use cases. Why is that no longer a valid way to tune power? sure, it's not really that important to those on the street, but real changes in engine dynamics can be had with adjusting cam timing. It's a royal PITA to really do well though.
Anyway, I really hope that the tread can calm down a bit.
Couple other points....
What's a race cam? A cam in a racecar! Really, that's the definition. While here on the boards it seems that the de-facto definition is a cam that is extreme enough to require tuning to idle, there really is no "standard" definition of what a race cam is! Anyone going racing will choose a cam that is best suited to optimize the engine performance in the RPM range that will do the best to get the car around the track faster. For road course racing, that is probably something that is optimized for high RPM work. For street driving, you want grunt at a lower RPM range to give the car some scoot off the line. For AutoX, probably something in between, depends on the course layout.
My advice to those looking for a cam for thier car? Be really honest with yourself about how you use the car and choose appropriate to your budget and needs. Then have fun!
Matt
Last edited by Dr Obnxs; Jul 20, 2010 at 07:17 PM.
Some comment from Dave Crower....
I'm posting this for Dave Crower, who catches crap from NAM because he's not a vendor, even though no one can buy NS cams from Crower, and paying vendors do carry his products. (Sad situation, but that's for another thread
************************************************** ***********************************
Hello all,
CROWER will be attending and participating in two of the most prestigious Performance industries show coming up this year. The PRI show (Performance Racing Industry) as well as the IMIS (International Motorsports industry Show). Please anyone in the category, performance enthusiast, vendors, manufactures or just curious inquiring minds stop by our area and say hello. Perhaps we can answer some of the very good questions brought up here on North American Motoring regarding camshafts and other valve train and engine performance parts. If we can’t answer your questions I am sure some our fellow Camshaft Manufactures attending can. CROWER has been developing Performance parts for many years and contributed to hundreds of Podium Champions. However the achievements of any Performance vehicle in the end is the positive supportive interaction of the Driver, Team, Sponsors and choice of parts that placed them in the winner’s circle.
We at CROWER keep a very open response policy for anyone seeking information in line with products CROWER supplies. All inquiries are answered with the level of expertise and guidance needed to help you make an informative decision choosing the parts suited for your Performance Experience.
Resource information:
IMIS http://www.imis-indy.com
PRI http://www.performanceracing.com/tradeshow/
Advertised cam specification based on rocker ratios.
It is a general accepted practice in the camshaft manufacturing community to advertise cam specification on one or more baseline rocker ratios. Although during development the stock rocker ratio must be used for specification considerations. It is up to the individual user to convert the intended use rocker ratio with the cam card supplied by the manufacture or the engineered LOBE LIFT to determine the exact specifications with the final rocker ratio to be used. It is not uncommon for the end user to change from the stock based rocker ratio and mix between intake and exhaust different rocker ratios to achieve an estimated power value. This is where having a good fundamental understanding of camshaft design and function would be of great importance and use. The best approach in choosing a camshaft is to first evaluate the intended rpm range or torque value needed for a specific engine operation. And contact a camshaft supplier to find what they have to offer that fits your requirements. Often it is a compromise between the “affordable” camshaft already available and a “custom” ground camshaft specifically designed for you. The custom camshafts however can run quite a bit more than an off the shelf camshaft.
One last thing on the advertising of camshafts. It is also common for camshaft suppliers to name and advertise camshafts with rather high percentage of specification over a stock cam a “race” cam. What determines a race camshaft is not the specification but rather if the camshaft is going to be in a “racecar”. Even with a stock camshaft by machining considerations, careful use of lash caps and the final rocker ration used you can effectively have a cam that could be called a “race cam”. It is always wise to check with the specification sheet of the camshaft or cam card used prior installing in your engine.
Regards to all
************************************************** ***********************************
Hello all,
CROWER will be attending and participating in two of the most prestigious Performance industries show coming up this year. The PRI show (Performance Racing Industry) as well as the IMIS (International Motorsports industry Show). Please anyone in the category, performance enthusiast, vendors, manufactures or just curious inquiring minds stop by our area and say hello. Perhaps we can answer some of the very good questions brought up here on North American Motoring regarding camshafts and other valve train and engine performance parts. If we can’t answer your questions I am sure some our fellow Camshaft Manufactures attending can. CROWER has been developing Performance parts for many years and contributed to hundreds of Podium Champions. However the achievements of any Performance vehicle in the end is the positive supportive interaction of the Driver, Team, Sponsors and choice of parts that placed them in the winner’s circle.
We at CROWER keep a very open response policy for anyone seeking information in line with products CROWER supplies. All inquiries are answered with the level of expertise and guidance needed to help you make an informative decision choosing the parts suited for your Performance Experience.
Resource information:
IMIS http://www.imis-indy.com
PRI http://www.performanceracing.com/tradeshow/
Advertised cam specification based on rocker ratios.
It is a general accepted practice in the camshaft manufacturing community to advertise cam specification on one or more baseline rocker ratios. Although during development the stock rocker ratio must be used for specification considerations. It is up to the individual user to convert the intended use rocker ratio with the cam card supplied by the manufacture or the engineered LOBE LIFT to determine the exact specifications with the final rocker ratio to be used. It is not uncommon for the end user to change from the stock based rocker ratio and mix between intake and exhaust different rocker ratios to achieve an estimated power value. This is where having a good fundamental understanding of camshaft design and function would be of great importance and use. The best approach in choosing a camshaft is to first evaluate the intended rpm range or torque value needed for a specific engine operation. And contact a camshaft supplier to find what they have to offer that fits your requirements. Often it is a compromise between the “affordable” camshaft already available and a “custom” ground camshaft specifically designed for you. The custom camshafts however can run quite a bit more than an off the shelf camshaft.
One last thing on the advertising of camshafts. It is also common for camshaft suppliers to name and advertise camshafts with rather high percentage of specification over a stock cam a “race” cam. What determines a race camshaft is not the specification but rather if the camshaft is going to be in a “racecar”. Even with a stock camshaft by machining considerations, careful use of lash caps and the final rocker ration used you can effectively have a cam that could be called a “race cam”. It is always wise to check with the specification sheet of the camshaft or cam card used prior installing in your engine.
Regards to all
For those of you who haven't read it, Matt (Dr. Obnxs) has an extremely well written article about cams in one of the issues of MC2 magazine (forgot which issue, I have it saved somewhere though), with some very helpful diagrams, definitely worth a read, if you're interested in how these things work.
Read it sober though. Learning about cams is not for the faint of heart!
Read it sober though. Learning about cams is not for the faint of heart!
It is NOT needed for our cams but if you want to run what the other cams cam CARD says: yes....... be sure to add that into the cost
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,362
Likes: 1
From: Winston-Salem, NC
I'm confused, what good is a Cam card with specifications that I then have to covert to get the ratios, why not furnish the correct specs for my application to begin with? I don't have an adjustable Cam gear, don't plan on getting an adjustable Cam gear because there are brand new cams available already spec'd for my intended application. ........
To be blunt...
it's a bit of smoke and mirrors, and a bit of industrial standard practice. If one really knows enough about cams to really use the numbers, doing the math is easy and common. Also, while there isn't much out there other than stock for rockers for the MINI, for the rest of the automotive world, one can buy rocker ratios that are all over the place, so there isn't a fixed ratio that is good for all buyers of a given cam. It's also easy to ask why does one company quote duration at one lift and a different company do it at a different lift? Who knows, but this is common too. Personally, I like clear numbers, but then, there are reasons to obfuscate a bit as well. One doesn't want to give all the secrets away!
But at least there ARE numbers. They are there, even if one has to be familiar with how cam numbers are advertized to get the lobe lift.
As far as not wanting an adjustable cam gear, that's great. But that doesn't alter the fact that for every cam offered, changing cam timing can change where the power goes down.
Actually, somewhere in the bowls of NAM there is a thread by someone who did a very inexpesive cam timing mod. He enlarged the indexing hole in the stock cam gear and increased his torque at lower RPM. But I've never ever seen any good data sets on what one actually gets from changing came timing on our cars. The results are real, doing that type of power tuning is common in pretty much every automotive market. And like I said earlier, doing it well is a royal pain in the but. I don't know if those that do that type of tuning really care about what happens on places like NAM or what. But I'd be cautious about being dismissive about it's value.
Here's a story I heard from **** Smith, who ran almost 200 MPH in a 427 Cobra in the 60s.... Anyway, for those that are familiar with the Cobras and Ford, the 427 motor (in all it's varients) wasn't very plentiful, so cars got 427s of various flavors. That particular Cobra had a 427 FE under the hood, and the day before the speed run, it just felt like a dog and wasn't going that fast. **** was really worried. His mechanic said don't worry, everything would be fine. The next day, it was and **** pissed off all the non Ford guys there by running so friggin fast. When he asked his mechanic what he did. The mechanic told him that the 427 FEs had bad cam timing from the factory, and so he made an offset woodruf key to change the cam timing. Boom! tons more power! Now the Tritec is no 427. And it doesn't use a Woodruff key to index the cam. It uses a pin to hold the gear in place, and really the gear is kept from spinning by the friction between the gear and the cam (75 ft-lbs on the cam bolt means you need a heck of a lot of shear force to change cam timing once the bolt is set.) So you can easily enlarge the stock indexing hole and get a "hacked" adjustable timing gear and have at it! Who knows, you may be surprise at what you find.....
Matt
ps... all the starred names should be D i c k. Damned vocabulary filters! Blanked they guys friggin name!
pps, I just found this thread about the Cobra. 198 MPH on the official time slip, Ford timing had him over 200 MPH... http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79135
But at least there ARE numbers. They are there, even if one has to be familiar with how cam numbers are advertized to get the lobe lift.
As far as not wanting an adjustable cam gear, that's great. But that doesn't alter the fact that for every cam offered, changing cam timing can change where the power goes down.
Actually, somewhere in the bowls of NAM there is a thread by someone who did a very inexpesive cam timing mod. He enlarged the indexing hole in the stock cam gear and increased his torque at lower RPM. But I've never ever seen any good data sets on what one actually gets from changing came timing on our cars. The results are real, doing that type of power tuning is common in pretty much every automotive market. And like I said earlier, doing it well is a royal pain in the but. I don't know if those that do that type of tuning really care about what happens on places like NAM or what. But I'd be cautious about being dismissive about it's value.
Here's a story I heard from **** Smith, who ran almost 200 MPH in a 427 Cobra in the 60s.... Anyway, for those that are familiar with the Cobras and Ford, the 427 motor (in all it's varients) wasn't very plentiful, so cars got 427s of various flavors. That particular Cobra had a 427 FE under the hood, and the day before the speed run, it just felt like a dog and wasn't going that fast. **** was really worried. His mechanic said don't worry, everything would be fine. The next day, it was and **** pissed off all the non Ford guys there by running so friggin fast. When he asked his mechanic what he did. The mechanic told him that the 427 FEs had bad cam timing from the factory, and so he made an offset woodruf key to change the cam timing. Boom! tons more power! Now the Tritec is no 427. And it doesn't use a Woodruff key to index the cam. It uses a pin to hold the gear in place, and really the gear is kept from spinning by the friction between the gear and the cam (75 ft-lbs on the cam bolt means you need a heck of a lot of shear force to change cam timing once the bolt is set.) So you can easily enlarge the stock indexing hole and get a "hacked" adjustable timing gear and have at it! Who knows, you may be surprise at what you find.....
Matt
ps... all the starred names should be D i c k. Damned vocabulary filters! Blanked they guys friggin name!
pps, I just found this thread about the Cobra. 198 MPH on the official time slip, Ford timing had him over 200 MPH... http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79135
Last edited by Dr Obnxs; Jul 20, 2010 at 10:53 PM.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,362
Likes: 1
From: Winston-Salem, NC
Smoke and mirrors. ....
Understand what can be done with adjusting Cam timing and know that for the very experienced it can be used to possibly get that very last little bit, but since 99.99% of Mini owners do not have an adjustable Cam gear nor know how to use it why would a card with "smoke and mirrors" numbers on it even be considered an asset when there are tried and true options available. Options that have won and been on many podiums in Mini Coopers?
Understand what can be done with adjusting Cam timing and know that for the very experienced it can be used to possibly get that very last little bit, but since 99.99% of Mini owners do not have an adjustable Cam gear nor know how to use it why would a card with "smoke and mirrors" numbers on it even be considered an asset when there are tried and true options available. Options that have won and been on many podiums in Mini Coopers?
Last edited by minimarks; Jul 21, 2010 at 01:01 AM.
OK, I'll be blunt here.
What's your point? the quoted number that are on the card are accurate. Are you really so math challenged that you cant take a valve lift and devide it by a rocker ratio to get a lobe lift? It's really funny that you dis a product for using accurate numbers that require division when the cam you are running (a good cam, I'm not saying it's not) has no, as of yet, numbers posted at all! WTF? Hi pot, here's a kettle.... Pretty much the entier world of those that build motors have no problem looking at a cam card and doing some basic math. I just don't get it. Are you saying that because the cam card uses a generic rocker ratio that the cam doesn't work? If you are step up and say it. That would be total BS. Tarring a product by innuendo is really base.
Go ahead and talk about winning and podiums all you want. Haven't you read what the NS cams are for? They are NOT designed for those that want the highest peak HP at high RPMs. They are NOT designed for those that want a dyno plot with the highest peak HP on them. They ARE designed for those that want improved torque numbers at less than peak RPM. They ARE designed and offered at a price point that makes sense for a lot of people. People who are quite happy with thier purchase. They are NOT advertised or marketed as the be all end all perfect camshaft for everyone who wants a cam in thier MINI. There is no such thing. If there were Jan would only offer one cam, and he doesn't. Gee, I guess it is possible to offer different grinds at different price points for those who have different use case and value profiles. What a freakin surprise!
Really, these pisssing contests are not of any real help to anyone. When the fan camps come out and throw shiit on other companies products it does the whole market no service as all and really brings down the whole level of debate. so what information have you actually brought to this discussion? That there are buyers out there who don't know how to really spec a cam on thier own? This isn't news, cams are really complicated parts that require at least a base level of engine building and operation to spec and select. It also is why I always say if you are choosing parts for your build and don't really know how, then get the help from someone who does. Form a trusting relationship with a tuner/builder who will help guide your purchases to make a system that meets your needs. Anyone who won't do this will flush a lot of money down the toilet really fast, by buying what are good parts in isolation that aren't well matched. Oh, you brought out that RMW makes a good cam. This isn't news either. Really, the only thing that you've contributed to the discussion is that you're confused by cam cards, and this isn't important to anyone, really. What I read is you saying "Buy RMW parts, they're the best" without actually having the ***** to come out and say it. Jan makes good stuff. So do lots of others out there. You don't see me saying "Just by FES, or NS or whomever" because I understand that there is room for more that one vendor to sell parts to our cars.
The NS cams are what they are. They are offered for a use case and at a price point that many want. There is a reason that you see them offered on an increasing number of sites that sell MINI parts. And that is because they give the customer the choice of what to do and what to buy for thier use case. Isn't that a good thing? Or should there be only one vendor of one flavor of any part? I don't think so, no matter how happy that vendor would be if that were the case.
Like I've said before and I'll say again. There are many cams out there for our cars. Do your homework when buying. Find what works for your use case and budget. Buy it, install it, and be happy with your improvement. Can anyone really argue with that? I really, really hope not.
Matt
Go ahead and talk about winning and podiums all you want. Haven't you read what the NS cams are for? They are NOT designed for those that want the highest peak HP at high RPMs. They are NOT designed for those that want a dyno plot with the highest peak HP on them. They ARE designed for those that want improved torque numbers at less than peak RPM. They ARE designed and offered at a price point that makes sense for a lot of people. People who are quite happy with thier purchase. They are NOT advertised or marketed as the be all end all perfect camshaft for everyone who wants a cam in thier MINI. There is no such thing. If there were Jan would only offer one cam, and he doesn't. Gee, I guess it is possible to offer different grinds at different price points for those who have different use case and value profiles. What a freakin surprise!
Really, these pisssing contests are not of any real help to anyone. When the fan camps come out and throw shiit on other companies products it does the whole market no service as all and really brings down the whole level of debate. so what information have you actually brought to this discussion? That there are buyers out there who don't know how to really spec a cam on thier own? This isn't news, cams are really complicated parts that require at least a base level of engine building and operation to spec and select. It also is why I always say if you are choosing parts for your build and don't really know how, then get the help from someone who does. Form a trusting relationship with a tuner/builder who will help guide your purchases to make a system that meets your needs. Anyone who won't do this will flush a lot of money down the toilet really fast, by buying what are good parts in isolation that aren't well matched. Oh, you brought out that RMW makes a good cam. This isn't news either. Really, the only thing that you've contributed to the discussion is that you're confused by cam cards, and this isn't important to anyone, really. What I read is you saying "Buy RMW parts, they're the best" without actually having the ***** to come out and say it. Jan makes good stuff. So do lots of others out there. You don't see me saying "Just by FES, or NS or whomever" because I understand that there is room for more that one vendor to sell parts to our cars.
The NS cams are what they are. They are offered for a use case and at a price point that many want. There is a reason that you see them offered on an increasing number of sites that sell MINI parts. And that is because they give the customer the choice of what to do and what to buy for thier use case. Isn't that a good thing? Or should there be only one vendor of one flavor of any part? I don't think so, no matter how happy that vendor would be if that were the case.
Like I've said before and I'll say again. There are many cams out there for our cars. Do your homework when buying. Find what works for your use case and budget. Buy it, install it, and be happy with your improvement. Can anyone really argue with that? I really, really hope not.
Matt
Last edited by Dr Obnxs; Jul 21, 2010 at 06:45 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 4
From: Yorktown, VA
What Jan means is don't go by advertised duration. This may be taken at a reading that varies from flush to .010 lift. Most hot rod enthusiasts will tell you to go by the duration at .050 lift. This is the accepted standard regardless of the manufacturer.
I think JIMMINI's quoted lift values are metric.
I think JIMMINI's quoted lift values are metric.
Jan didn't put in nearly so politely...
but I just spent some time at Summit Racing...
Lunati advertized duration: Intake 268.... Duration at .050 227
Summit advertized duration: Intake 282... Duration at .050 224
You can look at every manufacturer out there. The advertized duration is different than what is measured at 0.050. This is just the way cams are advertized, and the duration quoted as the advertized spec is not at any standard lift.
Another thing I noticed at the Summit racing site is that they don't quote ANY lobe lift numbers. They do quote a lift with a factory rocker, but for a some block families, even this is a bit dubious as lifter ratios have been different for different iterations of the block.
All this pisssing over numbers is really a tempest in a teapot.
Matt
Lunati advertized duration: Intake 268.... Duration at .050 227
Summit advertized duration: Intake 282... Duration at .050 224
You can look at every manufacturer out there. The advertized duration is different than what is measured at 0.050. This is just the way cams are advertized, and the duration quoted as the advertized spec is not at any standard lift.
Another thing I noticed at the Summit racing site is that they don't quote ANY lobe lift numbers. They do quote a lift with a factory rocker, but for a some block families, even this is a bit dubious as lifter ratios have been different for different iterations of the block.
All this pisssing over numbers is really a tempest in a teapot.
Matt
That's what I get for taking forever to say what's on my mind.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,446
Likes: 9
From: L.A ca
What's your point? the quoted number that are on the card are accurate. Are you really so math challenged that you cant take a valve lift and devide it by a rocker ratio to get a lobe lift? It's really funny that you dis a product for using accurate numbers that require division when the cam you are running (a good cam, I'm not saying it's not) has no, as of yet, numbers posted at all! WTF? Hi pot, here's a kettle.... Pretty much the entier world of those that build motors have no problem looking at a cam card and doing some basic math. I just don't get it. Are you saying that because the cam card uses a generic rocker ratio that the cam doesn't work? If you are step up and say it. That would be total BS. Tarring a product by innuendo is really base.
Go ahead and talk about winning and podiums all you want. Haven't you read what the NS cams are for? They are NOT designed for those that want the highest peak HP at high RPMs. They are NOT designed for those that want a dyno plot with the highest peak HP on them. They ARE designed for those that want improved torque numbers at less than peak RPM. They ARE designed and offered at a price point that makes sense for a lot of people. People who are quite happy with thier purchase. They are NOT advertised or marketed as the be all end all perfect camshaft for everyone who wants a cam in thier MINI. There is no such thing. If there were Jan would only offer one cam, and he doesn't. Gee, I guess it is possible to offer different grinds at different price points for those who have different use case and value profiles. What a freakin surprise!
Really, these pisssing contests are not of any real help to anyone. When the fan camps come out and throw shiit on other companies products it does the whole market no service as all and really brings down the whole level of debate. so what information have you actually brought to this discussion? That there are buyers out there who don't know how to really spec a cam on thier own? This isn't news, cams are really complicated parts that require at least a base level of engine building and operation to spec and select. It also is why I always say if you are choosing parts for your build and don't really know how, then get the help from someone who does. Form a trusting relationship with a tuner/builder who will help guide your purchases to make a system that meets your needs. Anyone who won't do this will flush a lot of money down the toilet really fast, by buying what are good parts in isolation that aren't well matched. Oh, you brought out that RMW makes a good cam. This isn't news either. Really, the only thing that you've contributed to the discussion is that you're confused by cam cards, and this isn't important to anyone, really. What I read is you saying "Buy RMW parts, they're the best" without actually having the ***** to come out and say it. Jan makes good stuff. So do lots of others out there. You don't see me saying "Just by FES, or NS or whomever" because I understand that there is room for more that one vendor to sell parts to our cars.
The NS cams are what they are. They are offered for a use case and at a price point that many want. There is a reason that you see them offered on an increasing number of sites that sell MINI parts. And that is because they give the customer the choice of what to do and what to buy for thier use case. Isn't that a good thing? Or should there be only one vendor of one flavor of any part? I don't think so, no matter how happy that vendor would be if that were the case.
Like I've said before and I'll say again. There are many cams out there for our cars. Do your homework when buying. Find what works for your use case and budget. Buy it, install it, and be happy with your improvement. Can anyone really argue with that? I really, really hope not.
Matt
Go ahead and talk about winning and podiums all you want. Haven't you read what the NS cams are for? They are NOT designed for those that want the highest peak HP at high RPMs. They are NOT designed for those that want a dyno plot with the highest peak HP on them. They ARE designed for those that want improved torque numbers at less than peak RPM. They ARE designed and offered at a price point that makes sense for a lot of people. People who are quite happy with thier purchase. They are NOT advertised or marketed as the be all end all perfect camshaft for everyone who wants a cam in thier MINI. There is no such thing. If there were Jan would only offer one cam, and he doesn't. Gee, I guess it is possible to offer different grinds at different price points for those who have different use case and value profiles. What a freakin surprise!
Really, these pisssing contests are not of any real help to anyone. When the fan camps come out and throw shiit on other companies products it does the whole market no service as all and really brings down the whole level of debate. so what information have you actually brought to this discussion? That there are buyers out there who don't know how to really spec a cam on thier own? This isn't news, cams are really complicated parts that require at least a base level of engine building and operation to spec and select. It also is why I always say if you are choosing parts for your build and don't really know how, then get the help from someone who does. Form a trusting relationship with a tuner/builder who will help guide your purchases to make a system that meets your needs. Anyone who won't do this will flush a lot of money down the toilet really fast, by buying what are good parts in isolation that aren't well matched. Oh, you brought out that RMW makes a good cam. This isn't news either. Really, the only thing that you've contributed to the discussion is that you're confused by cam cards, and this isn't important to anyone, really. What I read is you saying "Buy RMW parts, they're the best" without actually having the ***** to come out and say it. Jan makes good stuff. So do lots of others out there. You don't see me saying "Just by FES, or NS or whomever" because I understand that there is room for more that one vendor to sell parts to our cars.
The NS cams are what they are. They are offered for a use case and at a price point that many want. There is a reason that you see them offered on an increasing number of sites that sell MINI parts. And that is because they give the customer the choice of what to do and what to buy for thier use case. Isn't that a good thing? Or should there be only one vendor of one flavor of any part? I don't think so, no matter how happy that vendor would be if that were the case.
Like I've said before and I'll say again. There are many cams out there for our cars. Do your homework when buying. Find what works for your use case and budget. Buy it, install it, and be happy with your improvement. Can anyone really argue with that? I really, really hope not.
Matt
Well said Matt. For those that think cam cards are not important for whatever reason here are three of the biggest names in the buisness that have a different opinion.
Crower cams says this, "Refer to the "Important Camshaft and Lift Information" booklet included with each new Crower camshaft to avoid any break-in problems."
Comp cams says this, "While our online cam spec card database is maintained to the best of our ability...."
Crane cams say's this, "You must check the GRIND NUMBER stamped on the front of the camshaft and check it against the Grind Number near the top of the Spec Card.
Randy
M7 Tuning
RMW cam numbers...
now first off, these number are from the cam rolling data that Jan posted. So they are good to a % or so as I had to measure them from the graphs.
Cam Lift 0.258" Exh 0.242" Int
Duration @ 050 195 Exh 180 Int
Lobe Separation 114
Now, looking at the Newman site, this is the BMWI/246/396 PH4 off the shelf Newman cam. If that's it, then the advertized numbers are
Adv duration 264 Exh 246 Int
anyway, these are just my estimates based on the graph Jan posted. If there are any errors in the numbers, they are mine alone. I don't have the data on a computer so I can't get the numbers to any higher precision.
Matt
Matt
Cam Lift 0.258" Exh 0.242" Int
Duration @ 050 195 Exh 180 Int
Lobe Separation 114
Now, looking at the Newman site, this is the BMWI/246/396 PH4 off the shelf Newman cam. If that's it, then the advertized numbers are
Adv duration 264 Exh 246 Int
anyway, these are just my estimates based on the graph Jan posted. If there are any errors in the numbers, they are mine alone. I don't have the data on a computer so I can't get the numbers to any higher precision.
Matt
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 17
I'm no cam expert and don't claim to be.. Just thinking out loud here for a minute.. Regrind cam vs new billet cam.. Regrind should be MUCH cheaper then a new piece.. Down the road or short term if I decided to sell the car or cam for that matter with the new piece I could do that.. ( swap out ) With the regrind and assuming I return my core I can't do that..
I know the NS cams claim to be for more mid range torque and may will be.. but should do so at half the price of a new billet piece don't ya think.. I for one if I'm going to have to pay anywheres near the same price I want all I can get for it..
I know the NS cams claim to be for more mid range torque and may will be.. but should do so at half the price of a new billet piece don't ya think.. I for one if I'm going to have to pay anywheres near the same price I want all I can get for it..