I do not endorse any vendor's intercooler and am just trying to understand what makes things better for me to eventually choose one. I beleive an independent set of tests (both dyno and track) will give the best answer but not sure if that could be done.[/quote]

That's what I want the most, an independant test. Manufacturers always seem to post enormous gains of HP or TQ whether it be for my old Firebird or my now Mini. They usually come up short. Magazines like Car Craft and European Tuner are the great source of independant sources for tests. I just know, even in the aviation world of jets and piston poppers where I live, cold, dense (no humidity) air means more power, and with a little 1.6Ltr engine, she needs all she can get.

 

I agree, but who do you know that is going to buy $2000 in intercoolers to test out? Track testing will reveal nothing, Pre and post core IC probes might be the ticket to testing how they work, even a dyno doesn't properly simulate the air going over the intercooler (not even with the big fans). I just don't see an easy way to have a shootout. Whichever one you pick, it'll be better than stock, so I guess thats a good thing, but I don't think we'll see an intercooler shootout anytime soon.

Alta lists this on their site-

ALTA FMIC vs. OEM
Cubic Inches 215% bigger
Charge Square Inches (charge tube only) 155% bigger
Fin density per square inch 20% less
Charge side square inch minus fin density 158% more
Pressure Drop ALTA 1.5psi vs OEM 2.0psi
Temp in 280F
Temp Out 105F
Ambient Temp 70F
Intercooler Efficiency 83%
Tested at 25lbs/min which is about 250 Horsepower, and with 60MPH of ambient air flow.

I guess if the other brands would test to similar conditions (which they won't) we'd at least have a basis for comparison.

 

So what are we left with to make a decision.

1. choose by brand reputation
2. choose by design
3. choose by NAM recommendations
4. choose by price
5. choose by claimed HP gains
6. choose by butt dyno
7. choose by recommendations of independent testers
8. choose by recommendations of someone you trust

Welcome to the world of the aftermarket. IWIK.

 

Except, everyone keeps talking about hp gains in FMIC's... you don't actually "gain" any hp, if anything maybe 1 or 2- the point of a IC is to prevent hp loss- due to heat soak after running the car hard/long. In my experiences on rallys and such since I have not taken my MINI to the track yet, heat soak is very noticiable with the stock fmic- after a 1.5 hr run the car felt very sluggish... we took an hour visit at a location [left hood opened] and when we got back on the road power was back, huge difference. If I had an upgraded fmic i woulda seen the 'lack' of losing hp after everything heated up and started combusting hot, heat soaked air.

But overall, yes, this is the world of aftermarket modifications-
every model of one type of mod will always sound better coming from one marketed site to another.. just gotta trust your gut instinct, take what everyone has to say about each product with a grain of salt and use judgement to see what overall trends of the product is from brand to brand

 

http://www.minspeed.net/R56FIC.htm - Pete @ Minspeed

 

hahaha so the forge is a stepped core to!

 

So as a daily driver with only a handful of track days planned, do you think a FMIC will be noticable. I am mainly concerned about driving around for 20 minutes in the summer, pulling up next to some guy that wants to race, and not having all my HP's cuz my of heat sink, etc. My summer is about 5-6 months, avg temp 80-90, but up to 100 some days. But even in colder times, running the engine for a while would get things really hot right?

 

Ortholance,

Last year, I did 5 track days in a row on my 08 MCS with stock intercooler and it is fine. There were other 4 Minis out there w/o any complaints of heat soak from the intercooler. Most track day runs are between 20-30 minutes each so it should be no issue. Also, you do not spend much time at slow speeds or stopped so there is plenty of ambient air going through the engine bay and radiator/intercooler. If heat soak is still a worry, then you should also look at the open CAI as well.

This year, I would like to try an upgraded intercooler to see what it does on the track.

BTW, upgrading your brake pads is extremely important and as as some additional front negative camber.

 

slinger - people have posted that it becomes more important to uprgrade the FMIC as you add more mods to accomidate more boost. Would you agree? and if so, is a CAI, boost tubes, catback, and future ECU tune considered major increases in boost that require an upgraded FMIC? also, can you explain more your previous comment about an open CAI?? thanks and thanks for the brake tip...I kinda knew this is important but adding HP is so much more fun

 

I believe that there are a few groups of things that seem to help the power side:
1. Breathe better including volume and temperature
2. Make things cooler including intercooler
3. Exhaust better
4. More aggressive tuning

I think they should be done in an integrated fashion dependent on what you want to do (i.e. track). Hard to tell without dynos and track time but it seems logical and probable that to truely unlock 1-3, you kind of need 4.

I would just hate to add $3000-$4000 of stuff that is supposed to add perhaps 40 hp and 40 ft lb of torque and find out that it is only 0.3 seconds faster on 0-60 mph. But there is too much questionable information.

I have JCW mild tune stage 1 and would just add a few more things. Beyond power, it would be in the handling side.

What do you think?

 

0-60 doesn't apply, its fwd. If you put a bigger intercooler, an intake, and a turboback exhaust on the car, and then a tune when they come out, the car will be totally different and much more powerful. An intercooler is a good idea for me as I live in florida and its 90+ around here in the summers, but if you live somewhere that its not quite so hot you might be alright with the stock one. I think you hit the nail on the head with the "unlocking" comment, the reflash is going to be one of the most beneficial mods you can do to this car, that is when the good ones come out.

 

Doing a little more research on both the Helix13 and the Alta website, I found that the the pressure drop for both intercoolers at the same "250hp" mark, the Helix unit only had a drop of .5 PSI where as the Alta "final design" had a loss of 1.5PSI at the same pressures, every PSI means more or less power so I think it is correct to say I'll be getting the Helix one since it has the least drop in pressure.

 

Plus it looks beautifully constructed...and it actually fits

 

so any final words on the value of adding an upgraded FMIC on a moderately modded S? Is it essential in the modding sequence or is the OEM adequate to support upgraded CAI, Boost tubes, ECU, and Catback? Or does it just depend on summer temps and/or type of driving? I want to get in on the Helix vendor buy if it's really needed. Thanks in advance for the input.

 

PoktRokt.. it depends.
You have to measure each cooling unit on it's own merits.
The "downside" to a larger cooler is the larger frontal area covers a good portion of your radiator, which will greatly reduce the pressure delta and thus the cooling efficiency of your radiator. This does not mean your car will over-heat, but it is something to consider as that detriment will mean more or less depending on the person. For example if you live in Arizona and like to track your car... Well decreasing cooling efficiency in any way is a bad thing

The upside to a larger cooler is cooler and more consistently cooler charge temperatures. You do not need ANY mods to take advantage of this.
Cooler charge temps means:
1. Greater safety margin from detonation
2. Depending on the ECU program... it could equal more power as Ignition Advance is completely dependant on IAT's. The higher your IAT's the less advance the ECU can throw at it, but if you cool the charge, then the computer can throw more advance. I'm not saying the ECU will do this, because I haven't seen the calibration, but it's possible.
3. It's a great mod for future growth.
4. Finally and MOST important... greater MASS of air into the combustion chamber (as Mass is determined by air temps and pressure). 12 PSI at 100 degress will have a much greater "Mass" of air than 12 PSI at 200 degrees :D. So even if you do not make use of the first 3 benefits, this one still exists.

The point is, you do not "need" to have other mods to take advantage of the larger intercooler. Now NORMALLY, these units have a lesser volumetric efficiency than OEM units... but Helix is claiming a .5 PSI pressure drop across the entire core, that is EXCELLENT! Seriously..
The Alta unit, I think, has a 1.5 PSI pressure drop (but I also believe it has a larger frontal area, which could be helpful for huge power).

I'm not sold on the "stepped" design as usually very thick cores are not as "thermally efficient" as thinner cores. It's usually a balancing act. Use the thickest possible core that is still "thermally" efficient. The reason why "thick" cores are not "thermally" efficient is because there isn't enough air pressure to cool the fins the lenth (which in this case is the thickness) of the core. But you do gain volumetric efficiency (charge air will flow well).

I wish I had the time and equipment to do independant testing and test the actual pressure drop across the core. You'd have to measure the delta at different pressures to see if that .5 PSI drop is all the time or only "best case scenario".

Anyways, sorry for the long book, just wanted to give you some of the "tech" behind choosing your cooler. IMO, you aren't hurting yourself, even without mods by buying the new IC. Is it "worth" the money?... That's a personal decision

 

One of the things I noticed from looking at photos is the Alta Core seems wider and thicker (minus the stepped section)

Alta:



Helix:



Forge:




Anyone have actual measurements of each core ???

 

Someone also made a comment about a CAI ... There is general misconception that CAI add more power to Turbocharged cars because of the cooler air. This is false as once the air is pulled in it goes through the insanely hot turbocharger and in turn heats up the air. All a intake should do on a turbocharged car should be to flow more volume of air into the turbo.

Since the turbocharger heats up the incoming air from the intake this is where the intercooler comes into play. The core of the intercooler is to reduce the temps of the incoming air. Bigger cores flow more air but too big of cores can actually cause pressure drop which isnt good either.

 

No it is not false.
A turbo.. like any other "power adder" has a "thermal efficiency". These efficiency numbers will differ for given pressure levels. But regardless, the delta will be calculated off the base intake temperature.

Whenever you compress air, it heats up (even if the turbo was perfectly cool), plus you add the transient heat from the turbine, and yes the cool air WILL heat up, but that heat rise will be "static" for a given pressure (assuming the same EGT). So if a turbo has a thermal efficiency level that results in a heat rise of about 150%.. then if the incoming air is 80*, the charge air will be roughly 120*... Equally if the incoming air is 60* the charge air will be 90* (30 degree diffierence which will make a difference).

 

I have the Alta intercooler and have seen the Helix unit personally, and I can say that the Alta unit is taller and fatter compaired to Helix unit. I'm no expert but as far as pressure drop, If you install a larger intercooler and leave boost at stock, I would imagine you might see a pressure drop because you are trying to fill a larger space with the same amount of air. I also have the Alta boost tube upgrade kit and M7 Super AGS intake. I don't have any before dyno charts but after all mods I got 175hp at wheels on a Mustang Dyno. Since car is rated at 172hp at motor I'd say that the mods made a noticable difference. Here is a link to Dyno Chart: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...6-minidyno.jpg

 

I would have to say based on measurments alone, the Forge seems to have the same thickness as the Alta one and is a stepped core for added size and uses the stock mounting. I went with Alta's because before Xmas they were selling for $400 which is half the price of the other units. I could not be happier with my purchase and the install was not that bad if you have basic mechanical skills.

 

Based on looks alone, I like the Forge.

However the thicker the core, the less airflow will make it to the radiator, so I'm on the fence. But the Forge looks like a very nice piece. I am buying the Helix for basically the same reason as killerfox, right now the group-buy for 550.00 is a nice deal.

 

If Alta does that again, I'm buying

 

Is there a possible group buy for Alta's FMIC? Are you out there Adam

 

Any new feedback from the people that recieved and installed their Helix FMIC?

 

I received mine yesteday. The unit is very nice... I wont be able to install it until next weekend at the earliest. I am going to send mine out for thermal dispersant coating to make it a little less noticeable and secondarily for any possible cooling benefits it might add (though I do not expect anything).

I'll comment more when I install it.