I'd like to think that wrapping the turbo would have a similar effect on turbo life as installing a reduction pulley on the M45. Unfortunately there's no concrete data on wrapping K03 turbo's, so only time will tell *Shrug*.

Agreed with the above poster, this is priceless, and sadly a lot more widespread than people are willing to believe...

 

i hear ya rusty and its good to have all points of view. knowledge is power and in your case its horsepower. i listen .

 

All this banter and speculation is amusing, but here is some real observation after modifying my original mod. I took off the heat shield for the third time and inspected the home made wrap. This latest wrap covered the turbo and inlet distribution header with 2000 deg. F rated commercial exhaust header wrap which was then covered with fiberglass building insulation for maximum heat retention. The shield was reinstalled with only the top three bolts because the wrap was so thick, you couldn't get the lower ones on (I couldn't get the lower ones back on irregardless). Like everyone else who has installed the WAY wrap, the commercial high temp. material smoked like crazy for a while until it cured. I noticed the inside of the heat shield was darkened from the smoke so polished it back to a more reflective surface.

I also found that I could easily re-fit the lower three heat shield bolts by placing ramps under the front wheels to get at them from the bottom. By doing this, you don't have to slot out the bolt holes. So... for this latest revision, all the fiberglass has been eliminated and only the commercial wrap is in place under the fully bolted down heat shield. It does look a lot sleeker, but not as efficient for heat retention. The commercial wrap I used was an inch and a half wide and purchased at NAPA auto for $50. If you do this yourself, get the big roll in order to have enough for the turbo and the inlet header. I fished the wrap around both units with a welding rod attached to the end of the wrap which insulated the top and bottom of both units amazingly well and am quite pleased with the results.

 

Okay, I'm confused. What can I say--I'm not even a bartender in a strip club, like JAceMin. I'm just a dumb female. BUT, how can keeping heat in a turbo make more power?

I recently took part in a street-driving improvement course (not a DE), that included a timed exercise with very tight turns, following by a "floor it" section on the way off the course. This was similar to a small autocross circuit, only a lot tighter. At first, everything was fine--I did the turns and indeed sped merrily away at the end. After about the third time, though, I found that "flooring it" didn't work--I had absolutely NO power, just turbo lag, which normally isn't a problem.

In between runs (there were about 7 or 8), I didn't raise the hood as some did. Mine was the only turbo in the class; all others were of earlier years. I should add that mine is a week 3 MCS, no holes in the hood scoop, and only the slightest hint of a dip on the scoop--nothing to worry about at this point.

So, how would one increase power with a hotter turbo, without increasing turbo lag? The term "heat sink" was bandied about by those who saw the problem. Keep it simple, engineers--remember, I'm just a dumb female (although I'm not blonde).

 

Ok, I will give you naive, but dumb is a stretch. I have met a lot of dumb people, none of them are aware of the word dumb, or even believe the internet contains anything other than ****.

So lets clarify a few things first. The reason we either coat or heat wrap a turbo or exhaust isn't really to trap heat. The heat will still will escape, either by convection ( the hot gas stream will carry it ) or by heating the insulation. The idea is two fold.

Primarily heat loves to radiate and heat up cooler areas. Thermal equilibrium is the phrase used to describe this. The reason why food cooks in an oven, everything wants to be equal so to speak. This however is a problem in an engine. One wants the underhood area to be cool, cooler than ambient would be nice. This is even more so true in a turbo motor. The air under hood is drawn into the motor, in order for optimal combustion, and to maximize power this air must be as cool as possible, especially since a turbo heats the air as it compresses it. There are two ways to keep the charge cool, one keep down underhood temps, two use an intercooler. The computer keeps track of temperatures and protects the engine by dialing back performance as the intake charge gets hotter... hence your track experience. Also why we insulate the turbo, keeps the heat out of the engine compartment.

Next the other benefit to wrapping the hot side of the turbo is a little more subtle, alot more scientific. See heat is energy, energy makes that sweet little turbo spin. So if heat is energy, and this energy is being used to heat up the engine compartment and surrounding environment, well why not harness that energy. If we stop the heat (energy ) from radiativly heating things up... well then that extra energy will spin the turbo. See energy / thermal "power" likes to be used, all that force just itching to do something.

Sounds alot more complex than it really is. Back, oh like 30 years ago when we started turboing our cars we looked for cheap easy ways to keep under hood temps down, alot of people started wrapping exhaust parts, soon or later everyone started wrapping exhaust parts, then eventually the hot side of the turbo. Heat wrap was cheap, the gains are minor, the help is pretty big return on investment. You can buy enough high temp Alumina Silicate blanket to heat wrap 4 cars for less than 150$.

Anyway, did that help?

 

JAceMin you seem to know what you're on about. Do you think adding both a turbo wrap and a FMIC will help cooling considerably in my forthcoming JCW or is one superfluous in the presence of the other?

 

Ooo, ****! What sites?

Yeah, I think I understand. I'd like to see you guys fight it out and play around with wraps or whatever, before I commit to doing it for myself. I'm one of those who likes to keep a car forever, and I'm scared enough about the MINI's reliability that I don't want to experiment just yet. Fortunately the hood scoop hasn't melted as with others. I also suspect there will be a fix some day--hope it will be retroactive.

 

there is one. open the hood scoop. not hard at all. and can easily be replaced by an m7 scoop grill.

 

Interestingly I don't think the new stage 2 JCW includes a larger IC. I would have thought if they deemed it necessary with the new power and increased boost they would have stuck one on.

Not like they skimped out on it, the new JCW has pretty much everything upgraded, from the Turbo, to the Head, to the Gaskets, Pistons, Transmission, etc.

Not sure about the turbo wrap, these guys have that part covered *No pun intended*.

 

No both have potential to add value, I am running the forge FMIC, and did the turbo wrap several months ago. However I need reiterate something, my mini is not stock, there isn't much value add unless the ECU is remapped by either piggy back or reflash.

I see this point, and alot of commentary lately, whether or not it puts your mind at ease, I have wrapped every turbo I owned for many years, I believe it helps the engine greatly, a cooler running motor is always better for longevity. However, it is your car, the decisions are always yours, I firmly believe it is ultimately up the individual as to what they will do. We can provide information, share our experiences, but the decision as are the consequences are yours alone.


Yes, I strongly agree, this alone has huge value add, why they blocked the scoop is beyond me... first mod I did was dremel time on that thing.

They may have increased the insulation around the turbo, remains to be seen, I was rather impressed when pulled the heat shield off mine, it had much more mass than I would of thought.

Yup, the stock IC may be fine, provided the motor is kept stock. Engineers are kinda smart like that... they design for operational parameters.

 

I was more hinting towards the fact that the stock R56 IC is the same one used in the JCW R56 (Pushing more boost, and making 36 HP over the stock R56, etc).

Seems since they upgraded everything else, if they felt it would have helped at all they would have upgraded that too.

 

Not so sure this is the answer. The first thing I did was feel the scoop of a friend's '08--just as hot as mine. I checked, it was open.

 

As you said they upgrade everything meaning more boost out of a biggger read more efficient turbo... Maybe making the stock intercooler stay inside their "parameters"...

 

I have to go a +1 on the fatigue factor from expansion and contraction due to heat variation. Even though the turbine side of the turbo will be hotter, there will be less variation of temperature= less expansion and contraction variation= less dimensional changes= less fatigue stress.

Another point brought up by JAceMin, that heat is energy, is also correct, especially in the turbine side of a turbo. The turbine is driven by the energy of the exhaust gases.... not only by the mass of the gases, but by the velocity. If the exhaust gas gives up heat thru the turbine housing to the air, its volume decreases, and the velocity of the gases slow down, while the mass does not change. The important thing about velocity versus mass, is that energy is the product of mass times the velocity squared. That means, if the mass of the gases is doubled, the energy doubles (a directly proportional relationship), but if the velocity of the gases is doubled, it results in a fourfold increase in energy (a squared relationship). This shows the importance of keeping the exhaust gases at the maximum velocity possible, by not allowing them to slow down by contraction in volume by cooling, while they are impinging on the turbine blades and transferring their energy.

Once the exhaust gases pass thru the turbine, they can cool off by radiating heat thru the exhaust. In fact, once they exit the wrapped turbine, they will be hotter than before wrapping, yes, but the difference between the ambient air and the exhaust gases will be greater, causing faster cooling of the exhaust gases in the exhaust pipe. Faster cooling results in faster contraction of the volume of the exhaust gas, creating slightly better scavenging.

Another theme to some arguments I have read seems to be "if it was better, the factory would have done it". I have heard this for 40 years, whenever people put "mag" wheels on their car, or high energy ignition systems, or headers, and the list goes on and on.......well, now we see aluminum wheels, fuel injection, factory (somewhat) tuned headers, double overhead cams, disc brakes, electronic high energy ignition systems, etc. come as stock, from the factory, on almost every car made! Now, as 40 years ago, it was all due to economics. If the industry had not been forced to implement these changes by the need for more efficient engines and more safe cars, we would still be in the same state of automotive technology as we were 40 years ago. The industry couldn't, wouldn't implement changes because they would have to pass the price along to the consumer, and potentially lose market share due to the higher price. I am inclined to believe that the MINI automotive engineers know that a wrap would be better for the turbo, but the bean counters hold the purse strings, and have to draw the line somewhere.

 

Very well put and authoritive, especially the statement that exhaust gas velocity squared is very significant. The increased drive to the turbo is probably the primary incentive for doing this mod. There is another benefit, difficult to quantify, in that the exhaust gas is kept hotter going into the primary catalytic converter thereby making it more efficient, especially after start-up when bad emissions are highest.

 

cool glad i got one.

 

As I understand it, not a bigger turbo. Same turbo, different geometry inside.

 

Essentially making it a bigger turbo, you don't need to change the Housings outside characteristics/apperance and center cartridge to have a bigger turbo.

You could have a T3/T04E that holds 300hp in the "same" housings as one that hold 500-600.

Same goes for any turbo as another example al the GT25-28R* turbos you can have them most in same outer apperance and one only holds 250hp and the other gets a wopping 400-450

 

Glad I got one, too. It came today. Will install this weekend...

 

Really? Where did you get this info and if it's true this means that the current wrap offered by WMW should fit the JCW car just fine right?

 

From the Official MINI Press Release:

The through-flow capacity of the clean air duct to the turbocharger has also been increased. The design of the Twin Scroll turbocharger enables an especially spontaneous power build-up. In the exhaust manifold and the turbocharger, the channels of two cylinders are separated in each case. The supercharger blades are set in optimum motion even at low engine speeds. A turbine was developed in very high-quality material especially for the MINI John Cooper Works and the MINI John Cooper Works Clubman, and the maximum boost pressure was increased from 0.9 to 1.3 bar overpressure.

Full press release here

 

From reading the press release, and also being fluent in "Genglish", it appears that the turbine runner geometry was slightly changed to allow a little faster spool up. The geometry of the vanes can be designed to allow the best efficiency at different exhaust flow rates; however, there is a trade-off; optimizing the efficiency at lower flows results in less efficiency at higher flows. In other words, more boost at lower rpm, less potential boost at higher rpm. The vane geometry change would not require any changes to the housing itself, either external or internal, only to the shape of the vanes.

The increase in total boost, as mentioned in the press release, was probably implemented by the ECU change. As far as the comment about the material, there may have been a small change in the chemistry of the material that the runner is made from, to give the vane geometry change a better safety factor, theoretically better longevity, or ease of manufacture. More than likely, though, the material composition specifications were tightened, to allow less deviation in microstructure from the design parameters. However, either turbine runner, by nature, must be fabricated with "very high-quality material", but the statement about the material may be just hype.

In short, the housing was not changed externally. The housing probably was not changed internally. The runner vane geometry was most likely slightly changed, in order to provide additional boost at lower rpm. A comparison of the compressor maps for both turbos would be interesting to see.

 

OK kiddies, I'm not an engineer or anything, so if it sounds like I'm stating something, it's more likely I am thinking out loud, so I'll need correction...but I do have questions.

I'm assuming this heat wrap is similar to the wrap or in the same realm as your vent for your clothing dryer correct? Keeps the warm air insulated until it makes it outside where it is vented to the outside world increasing your carbon footprint yes? But difference between your turbo wrap and the vent wrap is you are actually wrapping a part instead of nothing. Ok I get that...

My question lies with where does the heat go that leaves the turbo housing through the natural cooling process of metal? It seems that wrapping the turbo, even the exhaust side, prevents the turbo from cooling naturally and instead keeps the heat inside of the wrap keeping that side of the turbo warm...like foil keeping food warm...although I like my food warm...I want my turbo cool..Yes…or do I?

I know when headers are wrapped, they wrap them at the down pipes too where exhaust is leaving the to keep the gasses from cooling and allowing the turbo to stay spooled up because warm air molecules are moving much faster and thus wouldn't need to heat them back up to make them leave through he exhaust faster....so..Faster in and faster out allows the turbo to stay spooled up and not need cool air to be "spooled" and heated and sent out...ok....

So I'm not sure if I've confused myself more...but in this case and most cases you would WANT to wrap both the exhaust side of the turbo and the downpipe of the header to allow the exhaust gases to escape faster instead of allowing the gases to stick around..might as well wrap the header too then?

So....benefits...keeps the turbo spooled up reducing turbo lag....possible negative...keeps the turbo spooled up reducing turbo lag and possibly causing a fault in the turbo system where your warranty will not cover the aftermarket part.

If the wrap causes a failure in the turbo or the downpipe...whose fault is it? Granted you have put an aftermarket part on your stock vehicle and have voided your warranty but have you discovered a flaw in the manufacturing of your induction system that cannot handle the heat?

Onto my next question...if a company is offering this product for $150...why didn't Mini just put one on the car? Seems they could buy in bulk from say:
http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/index.php and then just figure out how it needs to look and have the company manufacture it and slap it on at the plant?

I don't have my mini yet, but I am planning its upgrades and this is on the list...but I don't want BS answers. I want to know this thing is legit and will keep the heat flowing out of the turbo and allow it to be more efficient in exhausting what it needs to.

I'm not going to touch the problem of the heat and touching the hood or how a darker color car is going to absorb more outside heat and a lighter color car will reflect the direct sun light.....

So....I want an engineer to tell me the following:

A) Will this heat wrap increase the chance of failure in the induction system based on heat issues with the metals and what are the chances this could happen....I'm guessing 50/50.

B) Will it increase the HP in the vehicle by allowing the turbo to stay spooled up thus reducing turbo lag?

C) In your professional opinion no names given, is this a worthwhile product to purchase?

 

Basically what I said...

Whether or not the turbo is actually more efficient at delivering the increased boost (aka no increased heat) could shed some light on just how good the stock IC really is, and perhaps some people would then believe that you don't need to swap out the IC on a stock car.

We'll have to wait until the JCW model gets stateside and someone does some datalogging. My guess is that like the standard model, the new one is going to run out of steam shortly after 5.5k RPM's.

I'd imagine the IAT's would be slightly higher. They're using the stock IC still, so with all the crap they changed, if they left the IC alone, I can't see any reason to change it out on any R56 until it hits 200+ whp.

 

Well, I'm not engineer either, but I do understand what's trying to be accomplished with this mod.

1) Wrapping the exhaust side in theory would keep the high heat energy in the turbo and decrease spool times, increase efficiency, etc

2) Keeping the engine bay cooler allows cooler air to get sucked into the engine.

To answer your questions, any HP gain from this product would be almost immeasurable.

Nobody can know how it will affect turbo life because nobody has had it on their car for 75k+ miles. I'm speculating that insulating the heat INSIDE the turbo and keeping it there certainly isn't going to lengthen turbo life. Heat is energy, but that energy also damages parts exposed to it for long periods of time.

There have been failures on similar setups for other car manufacturers (STI's and Evo's come to mind). Those that have installed this mod feel that this system is unique and doesn't pose the same risk. I've never seen it in person, so I can't comment on that comparison.

As for whether or not it's worth it, that's a decision you'd have to make. I wouldn't put one on my car (As if that means anything).

Turbos eventually WILL fail. Adding more heat to the mix is never a good idea in my mind.