You can spray before, after or both. Most spray after but as an example Thumper who is playing w/ water/meth w/ a focus on cooling has opted to spray before the IC.

 

kinda refreshing for a change .

I raised W/M injection in this thread to make the point that its proabably more effective to go this route w/ a stock IC as opposed to an aftermarket. The fact that it only triggers when on boost to me is ideal - regular driving you ic does the job and gets help when your producing the most heat.

I agree w/ you "air management" - scoop, seals are important and a make different on the iCs total effectiveness.

 

I finally put a Scan Gauge 2 in my car and have some numbers for you .

On the way to vegas ambient 68 degrees speed 75 .

31 degrees above ambient at the top of a 10 mile up hill grade.

Temp dropped 18 degrees within one mile of the crest.

On flat terrain i was averaging 7 above ambient with a low of 4 above.

Randy
M7 tuning

 

I ran the car hard on the trip to vegas (3 hours or so driving time from LA). As you can imagine this means I was boosting quite a bit.

My Intake temps even at speeds in the triple digits never went much above 15-20 above ambient. On flat ground I saw similar temperatures, perhaps a few degrees higher. Typically I'm between 9 and 12 degrees above ambient when I'm in vacuum.

As I said, typical recovery time on the stock IC is between 10 and 20 seconds.

I have no issues whatsoever with cooling on my car as long as I'm moving faster than 35-40 MPH. On slow speed tracks like SOW I see high intake temperatures because I don't see enough airflow for any period of time to cool down the actual IC.

Comparing the two IC's it's pretty obvious why the stock IC cools down so much faster, it probably weighs 1.5-2 lbs, wheras the DFIC is what, 10-12 lbs?

 

We've been down this "road" before on speeding. Leave it off the site. It doesn't add to the discussion and if it did it could easily been stated that "I ran the car hard for the entire trip". Given this I've removed this from the post lest any new users to the site think we're all about breaking the limit at every turn.

Mark

 

Yeah, i know and i can't wait to tune for it

 

well that would be silly... then what happens when all us guys with front mount intercoolers go drive in the rain? The intercooler should be made with a non-corrosive metal so that it is "water proof" if you will.

As a matter of cooling, you would actually WANT to get some of that water in between the fins to remove the heat by evaporation. When you add water you basically increase the efficiency of your IC 2-3 fold (i'll run the numbers if you want, but it helps a ton is the point).

Personally, if you have a decent IC i don't see much benefit of spraying water on the pipes post-cooling. On my front mount after a hard drive, the hot side will give you a nice blister if you touch it, whereas the cold side is cool to the touch -- so spraying it with water on the cold side won't do much.

If you want to spray, spray before the core or AT the core. I would choose to do so right on the core itself.

And don't get confused, Water or Meth injection/spraying is completely different than IC spraying. The previous is done through a nipple on the charge pipe right before the air/fuel mix goes into the cylinder for combustion. A nozzle much like the fuel injectors in the engine sprays a fine mist that cools the charge air and raise octane -- so it's not directly increasing hp...but the cooling effect makes more power by increasing air density, and the combination of lower temps + higher octane allows for more boost which makes more power.

 

Someone on NAM did some testing with before and after the intercooler and the results were better after the intercooler. One reason is the IC cooled the air as it should and the added spray drops the temp even more. Secondly, you have to worry about "puddling"with the fins on the inside obstructing the flow of the spray. The spray has a less area to cool comparing the size of the IC to the exit horn.

 

Randy, I'm guessing this was with the V2 DFIC or are you back with a stock or GP IC?

 

Yea, the point of water meth injection is two fold. The water cools the intake charge by mixing hot (Or warm) air with cooler water. The Meth raises the effective octane of the fuel (Methanol has an extremely high flashpoint). Mixing the two together is done for the sake of simplicity, so you don't need to tanks, two tubes, and two sprayers in the IC horn.

Whether or not water injection would be beneficial on the "Hot" side of the IC could be debated, on one hand, it will cool down the actual IC by allowing the water to evaporate on the hot IC fins. On the other hand pretty much any octane boost from the Methanol will be lost, because it'd probably just evaporate on it's way through the intercooler.

It wouldn't be THAT hard to try it both ways, you could always test it and come back with some numbers .

 

Pretty sure Randy has the DFIC2, I ran the first revision which had issues with pressure drop.

 

Eh? If you're injecting the same volume of methanol, and it's in the closed intake system, it's gonna make it into the cylinders, and it's gonna combust, whether it's in mist or evaporated form, no? Or am I'm missing some physics or chemistry here?

 

I'm not sure methanol in gas form has the same burn characteristics. Broken down, Methanol is CH3OH. How that combination of elements would react in gas form is a question for a chemistry major .

 

i think i was unclear. I was talking about spraying the OUTSIDE of the IC to increase the heat transfer rate for most of my above post. Yes -- if you are doing meth/water injection it should be on the cold side (after the IC)... probably about 6" away from the throttle body. Sorry for the confusion -- injecting before the IC would be a baddd idea.

 

I don't know that it would be a bad idea, but it probably wouldn't be as effective .

 

Right you are.

Although it could be a bad idea now that i think about it.
When you inject water/meth through a nozzle in the charge pipe, you're really squirting only a little bit and it's an extremely fine MIST. The misting is what really cools it and allows the engine to accept it. If you inject pre-IC then the puddling we were talking about earlier could occur as water gets caught between the inner IC fins. When the airflow does kick this water out (which it will), the water will mostly likely come out as standard DROPS of water -- not a fine mist, fired in the middle of a turbulent flow-stream. This does not do much for cooling (though it will probably be hot anyways) and if you get a few drops going through your TB and into the combustion chamber...ever heard of hydrolock? Go buy yourself a new engine.

 

Eh... you're not gonna hydrolock on a few drops... a few tablespoons, maybe, a cup, probably... but not a few drops...

 

Here are a few more facts to add to the discussion with regards to Meth injection. Did a little experiment today.

Ambient temp 95

IAT after sitting turned off in a parking lot and then sitting in bumper to bumper on ramp traffic for about 10 min 133.

IAT a top of on ramp after full bore blast and 100% Meth injection 67 .

Granted it is a very sophisticated system but methanol ,done correctly , really works well .

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

sounds like good results^. Where are you measuring the temp?

 

you can hydrolock on a few drops. I watched my friend do it after simply splashing through a puddle. it was ~ 1 inch of water, he drove through at about 25mph, it sprinkled his CAI, and the engine emmidiately died. We took off the filter to see how wet it was, and it had just a touch of water on it.

a few drops at the same time, yes. few tablespoons, absolutely. a cup... gtfo you're just dumb! haha.

 

The readings are being done via a Scan Gauge 2 which gets all its info from directly from the OB2 port.

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

Im guessing the OB2 measures just before the throttle body?

 

I'll believe it when I see it...

You gotta have enough water to either fill a cylinder at max compression (which for one of our cylinders would be somewhere around 1-1.5 ounces) or at least to fill a significant fraction of it so that the effective compression ratio increases enough to grenade it... so a tablespoon that made it completely into one cylinder MIGHT do it - that would increase the effective compression ratio by something like 30%...though you'd have to injest more than that at the intake for that volume to make it all the way into ONE cylinder... a few drops, I don't think so...

Or, one of our physicists can give me a lesson in how hydrolocking works if I'm mistaken.

LOTS of CAIs injest "drops" of water every time it rains...

 

i forgot what this thread was about already

o yea,dfic.

I have the older version ot eh dfic and have NO pressure loss but it does heat up enough to cook a steak after beating on it.

I bought half a meth kit from a friend of mine and need to finish it which i need help finding the parts....i only have the pump,tank and thats pretty much it.....do i need to tune my car with meth if im only using it here n there or will Jans tune work with the meth???

 

I won't touch this one.