yes your right about Tuls, but its not the best way. if you just run from the turbo straight to the SC then the SC will get alot of heat! if you can run a cooler beofre the turbo it helps alot!

there is a ford twincharge kit out and that what they do. run a MASSIVE intercooler after the turbos and then run into the stock M90 SC. from what i have heard they pick up anything upto 200bhp at lower RPM than the turbo only guys! obviously this is on a V8 and they have loads of room.

i dont think it would be that much of a problem for the turbo. as long as the turbo was causing no restriction then it would just be working in a presureised enviroment and thus not noticing any presure differance. i dont know how restrictive the cold side of a turbo is.

thanks Chris.

 

bump cos its a good thread.

 

why not just leave the top mount, but convert it to air/water for cooling purposes... than just run a FM for the turbo and run them both into the intake?? Than just take your boost reading fom the intake where they both meet! No one has ever done that... any reason??

 

Trickle...
What kind of problems would be unvailed if you run the sc into the turbo??

 

I read a couple of years ago in Autoweek where Volkswagen has an experimental twin supercharged engine with big results. The blower works at lower rpms then is disengaged via an electric clutch when the turbo takes over. You get the advantages of the boost from the blower at low end then it disengages like an a/c compressor clutch to freewheel when the turbo kicks in. This is all computer controlled not just an rpm or pressure issue.

 

yeah i think they run a twincharge in the vw polo

 

here's an article http://www.vwvortex.com/cgi-bin/artm...496&printer=1e.

 

and the golf. called the GT been around for a coupld of years now.

Chris.

 

i cant see any! there are compound boosted engines out there that do the same thing but turbo into turbo. what would be the differance with an SC???

the only problem is the bypas valve so the turbo can breath freely. the phyisical stuff isn;t a problem it just finding the right switch point. i think a WOT and a RPM switch could do it.

cheers

Chris.

 

Good thread! But all that sticks in my mind is with the clutched SC idea that I bet you will suffere snapped belts with repeated sudden acceleration of the SC. Just a thought....

I really need to get moving with starting my twincharge conversion now.... Summer project me thinks

 

That is what I was referencing. Total manifold pressure. The turbo would only add "x" amount of boot being that it is compound boost at the manifold, when the sc pulled out. the turbo would be the only posivtive pressure device at that point. You would have some sort of boost drop at that point.

 

Well the main reason for feeding the sc with a turbo in our setup was because of the ease of plumbing. Running the reverse would be much more difficult.

It would be interesting to see how it would work in the long run though.

 

pluming wise i can see yea, why it would be... but as far as mechanics, would it be bad for the turbo to get all that pressure at once? There is no reason to turbo a supercharger, its more or less just using it as an alley way to get it thru the intercooler to the intake... but the SC boosting 14lbs right away would spool that turbo in an instant... thoughts???

And tuls told me two SC's would be too much linear drag, what does that mean??

 

i was thinking of ways the plumbing could run. how about you keep he original sc plumbing right upto the intercooler, then you have a pipe leading to a turbo (the turbo would have to be pointing to the left as you look at the engine bay). also on that same pipe, leading off to left wheel, you would have t mount the second air filter and bypass valve. from the turbo you would go down, like tuls to the FMIC. from the it would have to lead to a throttle body(would have to remount the stock one) and then to the intake manifold.

it would be a tight fit but i recon it could be done. as for hitting the turbo with boost, like said before compound turbo aplications run MCH higher boost than a mini could ever see (well over 100psi!!!).

the only problem with the conventional twincharge setup is you cant run an intercooler before the turbo. if there was soe way around this then there wouldn't be a problem!

cheers

Chris

 

Alright, now things are gettin interesting... but according to your design layout here, your not planning on using the exhaust anymore to spool the turbo, correct?? If you did it that way, you could run a bigger IC or a water/air in place of the stock IC, than to the turbo, than around Tuls' way behind the motor to the FMIC and into the intake... and than just run a header and open dump off your wategate for the turbo... with a BOV for each the SC and turbo... would this be a more effective way? Cause I know it would look sick as hell underneath the hood...!!

 

no you have to use the exhaust to drive the turbo thats how turbos work. lol

no the idea is that you wont need a TMIC anymore as the SC air will be cooled by the FMIC anyway. once the turbo is upto speed to SC will just be free wheeling anyway! its a design i have seen used on other cars (a Ford) and it worked for him.

thanks Chris.

 

Hmm interesting food for thought... but still the sc just pulls too much away from the motor and stresses it... anything over 300-330... pull the sc and go single turbo... but twincharged is so nawrly!!!

 

Hmm... not so sure about that... the way the supercharger works, it will compress whatever amount of air that is being fed into it as long as it's turning. With the turbo pushing more air into it, then more air will be compressed further. So a TMIC, may still be a good idea...

Random thoughts:

How about turbo > FMIC > SC > TMIC > intake... I'd have to look at the MCS to see if it's possible to rute the turbo output around the passenger side to a FMIC and then up to the SC inlet...

Talk about a piping nightmare... not to mention pressure drop...

FWIW, my Dodge CTD 12V is a popular twin-turbo truck (although a mod I never plan to do) so there's a lot out there to look at. They run the two turbos sequentially and then feed the FMIC. The turbos are sized so that one is smaller to spool up faster and pump air into the larger one. With that thought in mind, I wonder how hard it would be to feed the SC into a large turbo and then into a FMIC. The idea is to use the SC for low end power and then ramp into the turbo as the SC is running out of steam...

I predict many burned pistons when sorting this one out...

I still wonder what ever happened to the M62 upgrade idea... I like the simpler is better approach of just make the SC bigger, but it seems as soon as the R56 came out, it was back-burnered indefinitely...

 

Hopefully this is not too dumb of a question, but in this case, what good would a supercharger do if it was before the large turbo, it would still suck up some power. Couldn't you just use a small turbo and cut out the supercharger? Wouldn't the result still be low end torque from the small turbo and then high end torque when the big one spools? It seems pointless to use a supercharger in this case. It seems to me that they would both accomplish the same thing.

 

We have just released our new product that would work for either supercharged or turbocharged. We can also make you a custom twin entry manifold if you decide to twin charge it.

 

The SC would provide early boost prior to a large turbo spooling up, thus reducing the dreaded "turbo-lag" common with engines equipped with large turbo.

Yes, sequential turbos would probably be better... or small twin turbos in parallel (although on such a small displacement engine, this is kinda silly). The main reason for using the SC is because it's already there... and eliminating it is somewhat of a pain.

Even better would be figuring out how to fit the turbo from the R56 engine as it basically functions like sequential turbos in a more compact package.

 

Yikes!

Umm... for $3000 the website needs to show a LOT more information.

 

The twin scroll design isn't exactly the same as a sequential design, although it does help reduce lag a small amount part of the twin scroll design lies in the exhaust manifold which keeps the cylinders (1&4 and 2&3 I believe) separate until the turbine housing. What are the specs of the R56 turbo? I know the EVO VIII and IX have a 16G design and also incorporates a twin scroll design and would probably be better for higher HP goals although with the work required to fit that unit you'd be just as well off trying to custom make a GT35R fit, more lag, but a lot more power.

 

Also which wasnt mentioned about the twin scroll design its often used on smaller engines, due to its efficiency becuase of short exhaust gas pulses.

I would like to mention the aftercooler kit works with twin charged systems as well Randy Webb ran our cooler with his twin charge system.

 

Agreed that you need to post more pics of your application... especially since you state that it totally re-routes the stock intercooler position!! but it does look sick on randy's... are you still using that custom intake as well??