Im talking a 300-400 HP system.

My best friend owns Velocity Racing. They specialize in turbo systems for motorcycles. My 2000 Hayabusa was built by Velocity and will produce over 500 HP at the tire and has run a best of 232 MPH in 9/10ths of a mile. Thats from a 1.3 liter motor.

This is a picture of Barry on his Street Bike Shootout, Factory Honda race bike. This is at Daytona last year at the AMI Brute Horsepower Shootout. This bike has made over 500 HP and run 7.70's @ 190 MPH in the quarter mile. This from a small 1.1 liter motor.



Heres a few pictures of his twin turbo Porsche that makes 1100 HP.




Heres my point. If he knew there was a market for it, Im sure he could build a Cooper that would make over 300 HP easily, maybe 400. Of course many other issues would have to be addressed, like wether or not the tranny or chassis could handle that kinda power. However, the fuel delivery, ignition and turbo system would be fairly easy to build.

Who would be intersted in a 300-400 HP MINI?

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Very interesting topic to ponder and it looks like your friend does some pretty good work too. But by the time the final bill came (plus a few grand more), I could probably buy a used, near mint condition 996. I love my Mini and always looking for more power, I have the JCW upgrade on order, bit once the cost gets over 30grand, I think its time to start looking at another class of car. I could be wrong here, I certainly would love to see a 400hp Mini run, but I don't think the market exists.
Anybody else have any thoughts on this subject?

 

I agree, but the cost prohibition would only be a factor if you really wanted to crank out serious HP.

I think he could build a VERY reliable 250 HP for about $4500. Much less than the JCW and more power.

 

I'd love to see the MINI after its been mod'ed, but I'm not sure that there's too many MC owners looking for max power...sure there'll be some MC owners here and there that will...but as I have noticed from over a half year on this board, most of the power mongers own MCSs...they appear to be the majority of owners looking for max power. Just my 2c

 

Well actually I was thinking that a person that wanted a really fast MINI would just buy the standard Cooper and with the cash he saved put a real turbo sytem on it and go out and kick some S butt.

Or you could put this system an an S as well. It would still be the cheapest and most reliable way to make over 250 HP.

Much more bang for the buck than the JCW.

 

MOre than doubling the HP of the Cooper would require SO MUCH MORE than just the turbo kit. It would have to have a whole new engine, trans, and good knows what else. You'd be better off building the ENTIRE car from scratch otherwise the costs would be staggering. And the design and testing of these new parts (which would have to be made from scratch) for reliability purposes, gee I just can't see it happening for anywhere near what the JCW costs even. But who knows....what do I know?

 

>>Well actually I was thinking that a person that wanted a really fast MINI would just buy the standard Cooper and with the cash he saved put a real turbo sytem on it and go out and kick some S butt.
>>
>>Or you could put this system an an S as well. It would still be the cheapest and most reliable way to make over 250 HP.
>>
>>Much more bang for the buck than the JCW.


I have a tendancy to agree with this. I'm very interested in a good turbo kit, but dont need or want 300-400hp in a car that could never reliably handle it(maybe it could with mroe cash than I'm willing to spend).

I want more like a reliable 250hp for 5000 grand for the kit only, and a few more for the engine building. Then about 3000 for the transmission bits. That would be about perfect for what I want.

Maybe after the kit came out, and proved itself....then it would spark an immense amount of interest I'm sure. I know if I saw a cooper pushing that much power I'd be excited.

 

>>Well actually I was thinking that a person that wanted a really fast MINI would just buy the standard Cooper and with the cash he saved put a real turbo sytem on it and go out and kick some S butt.

Just how much does the real turbo system you refer to cost? To get the MCS over and MC is only 3,000.

>>Or you could put this system an an S as well. It would still be the cheapest and most reliable way to make over 250 HP.

So are you talking twin charged system here with both the turbo and blower?

 

That's one FAST bike.

 

This is a tough call. I ordered an S specifically to get the extra power. Seems like most who wanted a significant boost would have just gotten an S since it really does make a difference. Maybe the trick here is to be less radical, like making a worth-the-upgrade total replacement kit for the S supercharger, since S owners might be the types who are more interested in having more power in the first place. Also, bear in mind that the bulk of us are not straight-liners and are thinking in terms of accelerating into turns and out of corners instead of drag racing.

 

Points well taken.

As far as engine and tranny strength, I dont see why they couldnt handle 250 HP rather easily. Wether or not the tires could handleit, thats another question.

Id say a small garrett GT-25 turbo, an appropriate FMU and a good exhaust should put you at the 250 HP mark. Intercooler fitting would probably be the hardest part.

As far as fitting the turbo to an S model, you would have to remove the supercharger and replace it with the turbo system. The JCW package costs about $6000 on top of what you already spent on your MINI S and only end up making 200HP.

A good turbo system that makes around 250-275 HP should cost around $4500-$5000. The HP and torque increase would be dramatic over the JCW and cost less money.

Also, to increase boost pressure with a turbo in very easy. No pully to pull, no engines to lift......just turn your boost controller up and let the wastegate do its job. Conversly, you could also turb boost pressure down, for those guys that like road racing. Turn the boost down to 10 PSI, make around 185-190 HP and go raod racing all day long with no problems.

A GT-25 turbo with an AR of about 4.0 would give you absolutely no lag time whatsoever with a 1.6 liter motor. Instant throttle, instant response.

 

Hhhhmmm, couple'a points:

MCS would be better starting point than MC, since it has some important engine mods over the MC (cooling oil jets onto pistons, just to name one), and the 6-sp Getrag vs 5-spd. I don't think the 5-spd could handle the torque you are thinking about.

IMHO 250 hp is about the reasonable upper hp limit for the Cooper chassis: more hp won't get you much, since you will have a very hard time putting the additional power to the street. In my view, the Cooper is all about the chassis and handling, and not huge amount of horses. Actually, I would say for anything above about 200 or 210 hp, an LSD is a must, and that will set you back some additional bucks.

Having said that the MCS engine may be a better starting point, I would not advocate a turbocharged and SC system, rather a system where you replace the SC with the TC. However, while not an expert, I would see a system that might have 250 (or maybe even more) hp, yet I can't really see an engien that would give you more low end torque (below say 3k rpm) and maintain driveability. That's the inherent advantage of SC over TC, especially for the tiny 1.6L engine.

I would think you would get far more out of putting the same amount of money into suspension mods, than power beyond 200.

Just my 2c worth.

 

Punisher I think you're talking apples and I'm talking oranges.
MINI Cooper 115HP Base $17k
MINI Cooper S 163HP Base $20k

So for only $3k you get a supercharged engine, better tranny, and a factory warranty., and an increase of nearly 50HP.

You say bringing the base MC with a turbocharger to the level of the MCS costs about $5k. Why not just spend $3k instead of $5k and get the full factory warranty, the much groovier 6-speed getrag and theres some internal engine components that get changed out as well. So I really don't see the benefit of throwing a turbo on an MC when you get soo much more for soo much less money.

 

>>Who would be intersted in a 300-400 HP MINI?

That depends on $/HP.

If he could produce something that delivers the same performance increase as JCW at half the price (shouldn't be hard), or delivers twice the boost of JCW at the same price (or lower), then I'd be interested.

Only a few folks are willing to pour an endless amount of money into having the "fastest" car. I like going fast, but I'm not out to prove anythng. So, for me, its a matter of how much "enjoyment" will I get for the additional dollars I put into a car.

 

>>Points well taken.
>>
>>As far as engine and tranny strength, I dont see why they couldnt handle 250 HP rather easily. Wether or not the tires could handleit, thats another question.
>>


Well BMW/MINI thinks differently. The reason they chose a Getrag for the S was b/c the 5-speed in the COoper isn't rated for the torque (155lbs) that the S has. And the S has many reinforced components as well as having a lower compression ratio to handle the extra boost. THat too would have to be changed. I think by the time you are done, the Cooper will cost more than the S with the JCW and not be as reliable.

 

You'll have to understand, Im very new to the Cooper scene. I wasnt aware of the different tranny in the S model or of any engine differences.

It would seem that starting with the S would be the better choice considering the stronger tranny. Also, you have benifit of the lower compression in the S model, which removes the need to lower the compression of the Cooper motor. Although it would be realitivly easy to do, its just another headache thats not neccasary with the S.

Heres where a turbo would have a great benefit over the supercharger that comes on the MCS or even over adding the JCW kit.

A base S goes for around $19+ thousand. Add the JCW system and you're at $25+ thousand and you get 200 HP.

A properly designed turbo system for the S would cost around $4500 but make around 250-275 HP without much effort at all. With a turbo you could put a much bigger intercooler, thus lowering incoming air temps even more. You could also control the boost of a turbo with a wastegate. You could effectively put a big enough wastegate that you could almost turn the boost off if you wanted to, or at least turn it so low that you would barely notice it. Then when you wanted more power, turn your boost controller on and bang....10 PSI. You want a little more? OK, turn your boost setting to the next level and you got 15 PSI. Whoooaaa....a little too much power, turn your boost controller down to 13 PSI.

See where Im going? The boost setting with a turbo system, a proper wastegate and a good boost controller (like an MSBC1) is infinite. As much or as little power as you need.

With a supercharger, you get what you got unless you want to start yanking pullys on and off. A turbos boost control is only a push of a button away.

So, base MCS + JCW = $25-26 thousand and you get 200 HP

Base MCS with a good turbo system = $24-25 thousand and you get as much power as the motor and tranny can handle. Plus you get an infinite amount of control over that power.

And for those that think that superchargers give you more initial grunt, youre thinking of the old days when turbos were very laggy. Now hyper effiecient impeller designs and exhaust housing designs have completely removed turbo lag.

Ive got a relatively huge turbo on my motorcycle, which is 300 cc's smaller than the MCS motor, and as soon as I hit the throttle, I got boost. At 2000 RPM I can whack the throttle open and by 4500-5000 RPM, Im at 30 PSI with no lag whatsoever.

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Some of the early Cooper S prototypes were turbo powered, but with the limited space, cooling became an issue. This is why we have the supercharged cars among other reasons (such as every day driveability and power delivery fitting the personality of the mini better than a turbo would). I do believe there is a market for a base cooper turbo system, just not yet. Not many original 1992 civic hatchback consumers slapped a turbo on their cars right after buying them. It took two or three resales of those cars before they got in the hands of people who wanted cheap speed. Those cars are tearing up dragstrips accross the country now. The market for a turbo cooper will show its head in a few years when the younger hot rod generation starts to buy used coopers because they are cheaper than the S, and they begin to modify (or get their parents to buy the car for them).

By the way, is that a divorced wastegate exhaust pipe coming out of the side of that bike? Subtle and BAD *** at the same time!

 

>>......The market for a turbo cooper will show its head in a few years when the younger hot rod generation starts to buy used coopers because they are cheaper than the S, and they begin to modify (or get their parents to buy the car for them).
>>



too late. already started.

 

Considering that even the race prep'd Cooper Ss are only pushing 200-260 without an engine swap, I seriously doubt a 300HP Cooper would be very reliable, if even possible. The Porsche flat six is a very different beast than the cost-effective to produce 4-banger in the MINIs.
One of the aftermarket companies that specs MINI add-ons already has a 200HP turbo kit for the MC which has already been proven to be a lot for the 5-speed to handle. To be reliable as a daily driver it should have the S' Getrag, a $3000 part in itself.
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[img]albums/album25/akk.jpg[/img] VinceAndJessica.com

Einstein said E=MC2, I say S=MC2

 

>>By the way, is that a divorced wastegate exhaust pipe coming out of the side of that bike? Subtle and BAD *** at the same time!

Thats the dump pipe for the exhaust (the big 3 inch pipe) and a "divorced" wastegate pipe right above it.

This way volumetric effieciency of the dump pipe is not affected by wastegate flow.

My bike uses the same design.

 

>>Points well taken.
>>
>>As far as engine and tranny strength, I dont see why they couldnt handle 250 HP rather easily. Wether or not the tires could handleit, thats another question.
>>
>>Id say a small garrett GT-25 turbo, an appropriate FMU and a good exhaust should put you at the 250 HP mark. Intercooler fitting would probably be the hardest part.
>>
>>As far as fitting the turbo to an S model, you would have to remove the supercharger and replace it with the turbo system. The JCW package costs about $6000 on top of what you already spent on your MINI S and only end up making 200HP.
>>
>>A good turbo system that makes around 250-275 HP should cost around $4500-$5000. The HP and torque increase would be dramatic over the JCW and cost less money.
>>
>>Also, to increase boost pressure with a turbo in very easy. No pully to pull, no engines to lift......just turn your boost controller up and let the wastegate do its job. Conversly, you could also turb boost pressure down, for those guys that like road racing. Turn the boost down to 10 PSI, make around 185-190 HP and go raod racing all day long with no problems.
>>
>>A GT-25 turbo with an AR of about 4.0 would give you absolutely no lag time whatsoever with a 1.6 liter motor. Instant throttle, instant response.


I love the way you talk, and I think you have me convinced.

And as for the cooper S bourgeois out there, there are more reasons than 3 grand for why people didn't pick up their more desired version of the mini (ie the s).

For one I did not feel like waiting around an extra 5 months to be able to get my new car. Other reasons include: 3 grand I didn't have at the time, insurance premuims, looks, etc etc.

While now I very much wish I had an S, but I don't so I'm gonna have to get speed elsewhere. I think it IS more economical to build some speed and mods that don't come on either car (like the lsd, lightflywhere and racing clutch, and breaks), than to buy a new car (the cooper S) and then start from there.

If somehow that 30% I already lost on the value of my car could be made up in a trade for a new cooper S, I would do it, but it can't so I will just make my lowly cooper better, and more fun!

 

emobob - agree 100%

 

I do wholehearted believe (know) that your understanding of turbo far outweighs my understanding ogf my beloved MINI. To return again to my original point about the HP mongers. Since you had originally asked how much interest would there be in a turbo MC, I said that there'd be little interest in it. Sure, there's those out there that will want it, but the marketplace for engine performance appears to be in the MCS area. If I didn't care about the additional performance of the supercharger, I'd be happily motoring around in the stylish MC. However, I figured since this was THE most expensive car I'd ever own, then I might as well fork over the add'l 3k to get the more powerful engine. Do you see my point? I think if you came up with a kick *** turbo set-up for the MCS, I think people will beat a path to your door.

 

Actually, thats what I ended up saying.

I would imagine the S would be a more suitable car for a high performance turbo system.

 

I think the Turbo for MC is a better option than with the MCS... and I'm Interested.