>>Above you imply that the EVOTECH ECU is not working correctly.
>>
>>Then in this latest thread you say "We have eliminated the ECU, trottle body and cat back exhaust"
>>
>> I was wondering how you eliminated those three things from the problem list. Also for the record I am not trying to start anything. I am just wondering how you wrote those off as good and why you thought it was bad in the first place.

You obviously have no idea how troubleshooting goes which is not surprising given that you work at M$. If jlm was expecting to see 180hp and got less than I'd say it wasn't working as advertised. *HOWEVER* If after testing things, he found that something else was the culprit, it doesn't mean he was bashing the Evo chip, just that something was wrong with his car. Troubleshooting takes time and sometimes you just have to narrow down the parts until you find what's wrong. Unless you are Microsoft in which case you just ship it and point the finger.

>>Also its not really fair of you guys to call out bad parts on forums before you really know. I am sure that EVOTECH doesnt appreciate it. Again not trying to start anything.

not trying to start anything?!?!?

Dude, I hate to say it but this thread has droned on because you have to defend yourself and take crack shots at everyone else. Example:

Macncheese was answering you and because you weren't right (because you didn't know what you were talking about in the first place, you just overheard someone talk about backpressure and a baffle design and regurgitated it) you whined. (Would you like some cheese with that?) If you don't know what you are talking about Shut the F*&^ up! Don't pretend you know something and then get upset when you are corrected.

You've done nothing but aggrivate people here. I'd say the only thing you've offered that was beneficial was your web page but every time I've gone there for a comparision, the parts I'm interested in either aren't listed at all or don't have numbers to them. I'm better off doing a search on MCO.

And while we're at it, let's me just state that dyno numbers mean nothing Unless you 1. establish a base, 2. do the mod, 3. do another run on the same dyno with the same values and hope things like temperature don't change. Of course this doesn't take into account things like heat soak and the fact that you aren't really getting the same airflow.

Why don't you take your site down and go away. It seems to me that Andy wanted to start a discussion about the new headers and compare them to the stock ones. Granted a picture doesn't show everything, it is a start. And since I'm not really affiliated with anyone, let me just say that as a user, MINI-Madness' site is confusing and overall a poor design. I also haven't really been too impressed with any of their products with the exception of their swaybar. So are you going to pounce on me now saying that I'm just anti-madness? Am I not entitled to my own opinion? Or should I run everything by you and take what MINI-Madness and Randy say as gospel? Grow up, get a life and try to listen for a change.

 

Goodness! Can't we be civil?? :???:

R

 

Wow just as things were cooling off. I have a pretty good background in trouble shooting as a matter of fact. Thanks for asking. bash... bash... even bash where I work wow you are the professional.

No the point is they were talking bad about the ECU and had not troubleshoot anything at that point. There was no reason for that. JLM was expecting a large gain from a added CAM, throttle body and ECU and got what like 7 more. I think you need to go back and do some reading. Saying that the ECU gave nothing or actually gave a loss had not even been associated with anything and still has not. There was no DATA. They just felt like saying it.

You even think that this thread is about headers. You have no Clue. We are talking about HEADS and ECU's.

Again if you go back and read I didn’t get upset and I did not claim to be an expert on exhausts.

Did you read this entire thread or just the last few posts? There is no reason to get this way or bash me, my place of work or anyone’s parts. If you have an issue with a part and have some data then cool but that has not happened.

There is only so much time in the day for research of new companies and parts for the site. Maybe if you volunteer to gather some information things would be more up to date.
Did you know that some companies really have issues giving dyno results?

Its allot of work and I am sorry your not getting your moneys worth. Give me your address and I will send your money back.... Wait it was FREE! Again I was only trying to help by gathering as much info as I could. Sorry it’s not up to your standards.


>>And while we're at it, let's me just state that dyno numbers mean nothing Unless you 1. establish a base, 2. do the mod, 3. do another run on the same dyno with the same values and hope things like temperature don't change. Of course this doesn't take into account things like heat soak and the fact that you aren't really getting the same airflow.


Thanks for the lesson but we already knew this long ago. I am not even sure why you brought this up. No one is complaining that we have not established a base.


Sorry you think that Madness site is bad, maybe Ryan can help there but I can’t. It’s not my site!

Maybe you should not jump into the middle of things in the future your just making things worse.


JLM, Andy and Cheese, guys I really don’t want to argue with you. I know that all three of you guys have your area of expertise and believe it or not I do respect you.

Andy, Whiz with the Engine management
JLM, your machine work is the best I have ever seen
Cheese, your always on the forums and always seem to have an educated thing or two to say.

Point is we are all here to try and find the best combo of parts because we all want power. Can we please stop the bashing? I will do my very best on my end and maybe we can all learn something from each other.

If you guys really think that I am doing a disservice to the community with my site then I will remove it. Please let me know.

By the way I am about to post that Dyno sheet. Sorry it’s not in color. I ended up faxing it to my computer.

B

 

EVOTECH on Stock MCS

 

quoting MC:
"What I dont understand and maybe you can explain it to me is:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If the Evo was really working as advertised, I would expect to have seen at least 180hp..Randy has reported almost 190 witht he same mods, no cam

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Above you imply that the EVOTECH ECU is not working correctly.

Then in this latest thread you say "We have eliminated the ECU, trottle body and cat back exhaust"

I was wondering how you eliminated those three things from the problem list. Also for the record I am not trying to start anything. I am just wondering how you wrote those off as good and why you thought it was bad in the first place. "

we got no improvements when adding those components, no substantial changes when going back to stock (for the chip), so my conclusion is the suspect low hp is not due to those components. You might rightly conclude that those components didn't work, but I don't think I ever said the components were faulty. Two different things.

 

Uhhh. Apology accepted. :smile:


--
Cheese

 

>>Uhhh. Apology accepted. :smile:
>>
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>

Good, now lets put our heads together and find some more power. I need a new exhaust to match my new head coming. I was thinkng of the STEBRO. Anyone have any data on that one? :smile:

 

Nope.

 

That file is larger than the hard drive on my first PC. It also has no peak values on it. Thanks for posting it though. Here's a free image-editing utility that you can use:

http://www.irfanview.com/

 

If you take a look at the mania header download section on my site you will find the Dynojet viewer tool and some files. If you load one you can play around with many different settings including one that smoothes the jagged curves.

Specifically the setting is called smoothing and there is a 1-5 option. I guess the smoothing was turned up with the dyno operator printed it out for me.

Sorry about the file size. That happens when you fax it to your computer and it turns into a .tif file wich was then converted to a bmp. I didnt even notice that it was THAT BIG! heheh I will try to convert it down a bit. WOW!

Your a pretty hard guy to please









_________________
MCSHP

http://www.mcshp.org

 

Back on the subject of cylinder head modification, here is a pic of the MINI-Mania Stage 1 head ($1895 + $500 core charge):





They claim to actually reshape the combustion chamber.

"With our Stage 1 Cylinder Head package, air flow is increased an incredible 20% without sacrificing port velocity. Intake-Exhaust interport relationship is also optimized for maximum power with efficiency. The combustion chamber is then reprofiled for improved combustion properties. "

http://new.minimania.com/NewMiniSear...Number=NME6001
_________________



1/4 Mile Database

 

The tooling posts are gone.

--
Cheese

 

Andy,

Right! That minimania head was where I got the whole 20-30HP thing.
Also from that page from where you got the pictures, they say

"Depending on parts used in conjunction with this Cylinder Head package, power gains are potentially 20-30HP."

Randy's point about diminishing returns per dollar seems more believable to me but if it really was 30HP... I'd shell out the 1900 bucks.

Chuck

 

>>"Depending on parts used in conjunction with this Cylinder Head package, power gains are potentially 20-30HP."
>>
>>Randy's point about diminishing returns per dollar seems more believable to me but if it really was 30HP... I'd shell out the 1900 bucks.
>>


Well from what I can gather from the chart and the above quote, it sounds like you can get 20-30 horses if you use their head, intake and exhaust. That puts the head at 10-15 HP.

 

>>
>>Well from what I can gather from the chart and the above quote, it sounds like you can get 20-30 horses if you use their head, intake and exhaust. That puts the head at 10-15 HP.

I guess I didnt interprete the statement that way. I thought that they were saying that you'd maximize the benefits of the head by increasing the air flow in other ways. i.e. if you ONLY did the head then gains would be less. Otherwise the statement has the potential to be exceedingly misleading.... If my other mods included dropping a dragster engine into my sled then sure I'd expect at least 30hp gains even with the new head strapped to the roof.

 

>>
>>I guess I didnt interprete the statement that way. I thought that they were saying that you'd maximize the benefits of the head by increasing the air flow in other ways. i.e. if you ONLY did the head then gains would be less. Otherwise the statement has the potential to be exceedingly misleading.... If my other mods included dropping a dragster engine into my sled then sure I'd expect at least 30hp gains even with the new head strapped to the roof.
>>


You could be right on that although I think 10-15 horses is what you could realistically expect although I bet they worded it the way they did intentionally so people might get awfully excited about it. But then again, I really don't know anything about this stuff except from what I've read here over the past year and from what I've learned from talking to a few experts.

 

>>You could be right on that although I think 10-15 horses is what you could realistically expect although I bet they worded it the way they did intentionally so people might get awfully excited about it. But then again, I really don't know anything about this stuff except from what I've read here over the past year and from what I've learned from talking to a few experts.

Too true. Based upon what I've read here and other places 30HP sounds way too good to be true. Even so, I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and choose to read that they were not intentionally misleading people with loose wording. But that means that they are probably guilty of grievious exaggeration (if not outright lying) by claiming 30HP. That statement was probably a little harsh but it sure would be easier to believe their claim if they had some real HP/torque data to back it up.

 

Yesterday, I had the pleasure of spending several hours in the shop of a professional engine builder (everything from old Jaguar twin-cam 6 to BMW E30 M3 motors). We talked extensively about cylinder head design and modification techniques. It looks like other than the exhaust gasket and manifold port matching, MINI did a pretty nice job from the factory. The combustion chamber is small-volume and has quench areas between each of the valves, with the mixture being nicely concentrated around the central spark plug. The valve seats are ground to three angles and the non-mating surfaces are kept rough to avoid a boundary layer that could inhibit airflow and/or cause fuel to drop out of suspension.

It was amazing to see the progression in design over time from the very large combustion chambers of older British and German engine designs to the much smaller combustion chambers of modern designs.

The moral of the story is, there's a huge amount of planning and effort that goes into cylinder head modification. Anyone who does such work needs to be very knowledgable and competent, or they won't be in business for long.

 

True Andy, but I would be suprrised to find any factory head on a sub $70k+ car that could not stand for a bit more tweeking. There is usualy material that can be removed behind the valve seat, and around the valve stem that can increase the flow. I believe 10%-15% gains in power can be found on most mass produced heads with carefull planning and testing on a flow bench. You will of course trash at least one head during this education. Usualy happens when you take to much metal out near a water passage.

Wes

 

Just to add my two cents, most of you forget that these hp gains are based on the cooper,not the s...... the s will not see the same gains they will be signigcantly less, but there will be gains, this is one of the advantages of forced induction the flows are not AS critical, therefore as stated if you are going for the extra couple as a weekend racer or pro racer you will have to spend the bucks for relativly minimal gains, but every hp counts...before everyone starts complaining about someones product they need to make sure they read the whole thing (cooper) it is on the page, not s....