>>Hey MiniMania claims that their stage 1 head should get 20-30 HP increase depending upon what other mods you have.>>

I think that the only way that you get 30hp out of a cleaned up head with stock valves is if you had previously opted for the early 2002 "Hampster down the Throttle Body" mod and had not previously removed it.

 

>>>>Hey MiniMania claims that their stage 1 head should get 20-30 HP increase depending upon what other mods you have.>>
>>
>>I think that the only way that you get 30hp out of a cleaned up head with stock valves is if you had previously opted for the early 2002 "Hampster down the Throttle Body" mod and had not previously removed it.
>>

How does this mod work? I insert hampster into the throttle body (before or after or actually in it?) buy port polished stage 1 head, dyno, then remove hampster, dyno again and see a 30hp increase! Wow, where do I sign up for that mod?


Paul

 

Does anyone know if someone is coming out with a stage two or just the valves, springs and so forth seperately? I think this way for the serious tuner they can put their own system together.


Peter

 

Ok since there seems to be a big discrepency in what is claimed for the head and what the consensus here seems to be let me try to ball-park it. I know that the logic and math here will not be completely sound but lets just see if we can get order of magnitude, 1hp or 10hp kind of thing.

Now the only way I can think of to do this is to compare JCW which uses a ported-polished head and ends up with 200hp and Randy's car in an early stage of development where he got 199.6 hp. Check this thread https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...amp;topic=5732

So JCW has - exhaust, supercharger, plugs and wires, ECU, Head
Randy had - Rogue Intake, Header (LS I think), Magnaflow, Throttle Body, Pulley

1) Let ball park it and cancel the two exhaust systems.
2) I think Randy might have also had the Nology Hotwires but regardless the plugs and wires cant be worth more than 1 or 2 hp best.
3) I know that the JCW supercharger is all new but the general opinion on this website seems to be the vast majority of the gains come from the 15% reduction pulley. So lets cancel the JCW supercharger with Randy's pulley

So that leaves ECU + Head = Header + Intake + Throttle Body

4) Now another popular opinion here is that the ECU for the JCW is just a change in the rev limiter. Looking at the dyno plot I'm going to go ahead and guess that its about a 7-9hp gain so lets cancel the ECU with the Intake. Actually this is probably giving the JCW more credit than its worth.

That leaves the Head = Header + Throttle Body.

Now the Madness web site gives numbers like 12 and 5-10 for the header and throttle body.

Unknows include addative nature of the mods, if the new supoercharger is really more than the pulley, and testing circumstances. Randy did it with a warm engine and he noted that a cold engine or an iced intercooler can gain 10-12 hp. No idea what the conditions for the JCW test were but if we give them the benefit of the doubt then it looks like the head CAN POTENTIALLY be good for close to 20 hp. At least I think we can say that the gain is closer to 10hp than it is to 1hp.

I probably missed a few things but it was just a rough estimate.
And in eerie coincidence, the price for the head (1900) is roughly equivalent to the header (1300) + throttle body (500) minus whatever core refunds you get from th head and tb.

Cheers,

Chuck


_________________
Still on order (and still changing my mind) MCS IB/W Sport, Sunroof, Leather, Silver.
Mods planned: H-sport springs and read control arms, madness sway bar, pulley, header, SSR GT1's etc...

 

Hi all:
The head clean-up with stock valves is probably worth 10-20 based on what I saw on Golf/Rabbit projects 20-25 years ago. I also tried big valves, but you must be careful not to lose swirl/flow dynamics in combustion chamber, thus costing you bhp and torque. I spent 15-1800 many years ago, and would expect similar labor today. core chare is new head, so the 18-1900 does NOT include this I would guess. Randy has a Schrick cam(Schrick does tons of OEM cam work, did the best Golf cam for years, makes great cams for my S62 M motors too) that he is going to test, and the cam plus head should do amazing things, but not cheaply. That is why the Works kit is so expensive, as it has the headwork as part of it. Adding TB, intake, header, and perhaps cam to Works will not be a cheap or incremental install, thus limiting accesibility for many people, but it does have advantages...try having a new head screwed up by a machine shop who has never done Brand X car, and you'll under$tand :evil:
Great head/valve drawings BTW.
Lee
Waiting for MCW, breaking in (42 miles this AM)

 

Ok all the playmini site, http://www.playmini2.co.uk , has a head and a dyno graph that shows a gain of about 7-8kW (from 85kW to 93kW). Now this dyno plot looks like it was hand drawn and there are no actual numbers I was just giving it my best guess based upon the plots and I'm not even sure if they were referring to the MC engine or the MCS engine but if somebody who knows how wants to convert to HP then we should have a rough estimate.

 

7 kiloWatt = 9.4 HP
8 kiloWatt = 10.1 HP

85 kiloWatt = 114 HP
93 kiloWatt = 125 HP

746 Watt = 1 HP

 

HP #'s look like MC and it would be a bad guess to say it would help the MCS more because forced induction motors do not care as much how smooth the intake path is. They can be helped more by valve size and cam than by port - polish and grind in most but it most likely does help some. 20 - 30 HP is a BUNCH of crap. The extra boost from the pulley is not worth that much. There is no way that it would breathe better from head work than from more boost. It just will not, can not, would not, could not, etc, etc. If you want that extra 2 -5 HP (my best guess) and have everything else done and the extra $ of course go for it. My 10 cents.

 

Here is my .02 cents.

Porting the head works fine on older engines. This is 2003. Engines have to make more power more effeciently and meet todays emmissions. To do that they smooth things from the factory. They may not be perfect but they are very good. and unless you are striving to get every ounce of HP out of a car (that most drive everyday). You are wasting your time.

Thats my opinion and I am sticking to it.

I have seen cars on the dyno and some mods make power but when it comes to running a track (Quarter mile or Road course). Half of the stuff does not work.


:smile:

 

Getting huge numbers out of the head is going to be tricky. We have tested a stage III and got less than 15hp. Mania's claim of 25-30 for stage I is stupid and there is no data to back that up. Also without the right exhaust and header your power gains will be limited to say the least.

I belive the madness stuff goes like this:

Stage I Port and pollish
Stage II Extreme port and pollish
Stage III Stage II+ Cam
Stage IV Stage III + larger valves.

Working on the Stage IV with larger valves and if it produces over 30hp I will be supprised.

 

>>Stock MCS cylinder head:
>>
>>
>>
>>MINI-Madness cylinder head:
>>
>>
>>
>>Doesn't look much different to me, just cleaned up a bit.
>>
>>Cooper S stage 1 head

Its a picture! Always on the negative as usual.

I saw and felt this head and there is a huge difference. Allot of material was removed. You should see the intake manafold area. It is a work of art. Personally I would always do a stage IV if I removed the head. Whats the point, you have it off and you might as well do it right.

 

Thanks for your constructive addition to this discussion.

Why don't you go "test" some more products, and post some more unsupported dyno data on your supposedly unbiased website? I can't believe Microsoft doesn't have a scanner that you can use.

 

Actually the best thing one can do to the head is a Port, Polish and gasket matching. The exhaust and intakes do not match the head at all.

Just be sure the shop knows what they are doing. Taking out too much and the wrong polish can actually hinder head performance.

_________________
Diamond Mini

 

>>The exhaust and intakes do not match the head at all.
>>


Hey Di - just how bad are they? Would you happen to have some pics? If the matching on the intake and exhaust is real bad there is something to be picked up. However, I haven't seen the numbers to support it and one would expect a ported head to match.

 

You can see the mis match if you were to pull the header pipe and intake. Bill Gude creater of the Bullfrog Product line, does all of our machine work. He said he was able to increase flow by over 30%.

For the exhaust it was the flange that was off by a 1/4 inch in places. I was real surprised. But, then again when I first saw the restriction in the header pipe I was not that surprised.

I will have to see if I can find the pics. We had it done almost a year ago.

 

>>>>
>>Thanks for your constructive addition to this discussion.
>>
>>Why don't you go "test" some more products, and post some more unsupported dyno data on your supposedly unbiased website? I can't believe Microsoft doesn't have a scanner that you can use.

Funny, you take a picture and try and make negative comments about it based on your lack of knowledge on heads because you can’t stand Madness products for some reason. Why is that by the way?

How many results do you need Andy! What’s the point!? Why should I be in a hurry to please you especially with all the other information posted? Were my comments about the gains of the EVOTECH ECU not true? Nope they were right on the money and you can’t stand that, so you need to dwell on the past because I never got around to posting my personal results. GET OVER IT!

You should take your smartass off this forum. No one wants to hear your negative views on everything. Your entire reason for starting this thread was to bash it. Not constructive talk but just because you don’t like the supplier. You have never brought anything but garbage to these discussions. Who am I biased towards and what makes you say that?

Actually Microsoft doesn’t have scanners just lying around and furthermore I wouldn’t use company assets for my personal use.

You need to grow up!

 

>>>>[quote] ? Were my comments about the gains of the EVOTECH ECU not true? Nope they were right on the money.

There was an EVOTECH car at the Helix dyno day last weekend and it didnt make any more power than stock ECU cars (I think it might have made less?)


--
Cheese

 

MCSHP aka 911ETR aka Bryan,

You really put me in my place. Thanks for all that you have contributed to the MINI community thus far. I look forward to reading more of your useful information in the future.

 

It was mine with the latest Evo mod to suit the pulley. I was assured by Jeff at Evo of this. My car pulled 171 hp, Andy's pulled 172. We both have intakes, exhaust, pulleys. Mine even has more goodies, but there was no indication that the chip helped with respect to Andy's numbers, except to raise my redline to 7500. The last time I dynoed the rig, it pulled 162hp (andy did 163, same day), so we both gained 9hp. The differences for my car between the runs were a cam and 61mm throttle body. The prior run had in addition to the pulley, intake and exhaust, a header. I can't speak for Andy completely, but for the first run, he was bone stock except for the pulley; I believe for the second run, he had the alta intake and Magnaflow.

If the Evo was really working as advertised, I would expect to have seen at least 180hp..Randy has reported almost 190 witht he same mods, no cam!

 

jlm,

You must be mistaken. According to MCSHP/911ETR/Bryan, you are happy with the Evotech chip:

http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...p;pagenumber=3

Please check with MCSHP/911ETR/Bryan in the future, before making any determinations about your emotions. Thanks. :smile:

 

>>It was mine with the latest Evo mod to suit the pulley. I was assured by Jeff at Evo of this. My car pulled 171 hp, Andy's pulled 172. We both have intakes, exhaust, pulleys. Mine even has more goodies, but there was no indication that the chip helped with respect to Andy's numbers, except to raise my redline to 7500. The last time I dynoed the rig, it pulled 162hp (andy did 163, same day), so we both gained 9hp. The differences for my car between the runs were a cam and 61mm throttle body. The prior run had in addition to the pulley, intake and exhaust, a header. I can't speak for Andy completely, but for the first run, he was bone stock except for the pulley; I believe for the second run, he had the alta intake and Magnaflow.
>>
>>If the Evo was really working as advertised, I would expect to have seen at least 180hp..Randy has reported almost 190 witht he same mods, no cam!

Humm first time I have heard anything from you on this subject in a while. A few things to point out.

1. AGAIN you can’t compare your Helix runs to any dyno jet runs. They can be 10-20hp off from each other but this is really not the point. Just remember you will never be able to compare your runs to Randy's runs.

2. I don’t know what header that you have but there have been reports of the Mania header not producing squat. Check out my site for the charts. JLM exactly what mods do you have?

3. There are more than a handful (40+) of happy satisfied people that have done this mod. Have you contacted Rentech?

4. What is the version of your base Mini Software?

Something else to point out, you have all these other mods, cam, ECU, throttle body and header over Andy and you can’t pull much more than a few hp over him?

You have some sort of an issue with your car, what that is who knows but it is more than the ECU.

Bashing the ECU without cause would be stupid. I mean if you got an extra 30hp back if you flashed the latest mini program then I could understand. I would almost bet money that you have some sort of flow issue with your exhaust. Are you still running that Rogue deal?

Lets try and figure this out, again JLM exactly what mods do you have?


_________________
MCSHP

Check out our Quest For HP

http://www.mcshp.org

 

Are you posting from work?

 

>>jlm,
>>
>>You must be mistaken. According to MCSHP/911ETR/Bryan, you are happy with the Evotech chip:
>>
>>http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...p;pagenumber=3
>>
>>Please check with MCSHP/911ETR/Bryan in the future, before making any determinations about your emotions. Thanks. :smile:

Andy,

You didnt answer the question, why is it that you have an issue with Madness stuff? I mean that is why you started this thread.

 

Actually no I am at home. I work at home a few days a week, at least I try. Today there is a track day so I took the day off.

 

I started this thread because I had a chance to examine a stock MCS cylinder head. I found it interesting that the modified cylinder head advertised by Madness looked almost identical, with the same finish to the combustion chamber.

I don't have anything against any tuner, unless they post erroneous, ficticious, or unsupported data ... or if their washboys/lackeys do the same.

What was your peak hp @ rpm, peak tq @ rpm at the wheels, both before and after the mods that you claim gave you "13.3 whp" and "26.0 whp"? You shouldn't need to use Microsoft's assets in order to read they dyno sheets that you allegedly have, from your own alleged testing.