I've thought about being in the postion as a driver instructor, glamorous this place until one witnesses the instructor in the ride of his/her life as a passenger in a 360 at 100mph.

I thought it might be interesting to read what some of the instructors have gone thru as a way of illustrating what not to do at a DE event.

 

It's not just DE's...

It's a very disconcerting feeling... I instruct at car control clinics and autocross schools for local groups (BMWCCA, PCA, etc.) and I've learned that it gets easier to sit in the passenger seat - but not much easier. I've also instructed at track days...

The hardest part is getting people to trust you - that you know what you're talking about - and getting them to follow instructions. Some are much more programmed to accept instructions, and some won't listen worth a damn. It's the people that DON'T listen that scare me the most - and the people I usually make sit out a session.

Key things that seem hard for people to get:

1. Looking ahead - "No, SERIOUSLY, look ahead this time!!!"
2. Gas! Gas! Gas! - "No, SERIOUSLY, STAY ON THE GAS!!!"
3. DO NOT LIFT! - "Don't lift - seriously, do NOT lift" followed by the next go- around commentary, "You lifted last time, which is why we went around in fast, spinning circles - this time DON'T DO IT!"
4. Brakes Brakes Braaaaaakes! - "No, SERIOUSLY, USE the brakes!"

A couple weeks ago at an all MINI Autocross Class, I got to see my fair share of spins - all of them caused by people lifting off.

 

I've never been an instructer but I did take drivers ed and we'll say that I probably gave my teacher a few heart attacks. He had his foot on his break pedal the whole time, not because I was fast but because I was soo bad he didn't want me going over 30mph. Not to mention the day they let us try and drive a school bus and I came less than a foot from backing over him as well as some of the students.

 

Great thread as I'm attending my first school next week. I'd like to NOT be one of those annoying students
Ok, what do you mean by lift? Lift your foot off the gas maybe? So don't do this ever, right????
Seriously, I'll take all the pointers I can get. I'm getting more nervous the closer it gets. Maybe I should stop reading here!
Annette

 

3. DO NOT LIFT! - "Don't lift - seriously, do NOT lift" followed by the next go- around commentary, "You lifted last time, which is why we went around in fast, spinning circles - this time DON'T DO IT!"

I never went spinning, but seriously being a student. you tell yourself no, your instructor says NO. your foot says yes. seriously the hardest part!

 

Scott..... you do know I was doing that on purpose right! I asked the other guy (sorry.... I didn't catch his name) if we could do some spins just to get my mind around the "If you lift, you lose control" thing, which does seem very counterintuitive if you think about it..... or maybe until you think about it.

Once the physics of it were explained to me and I put it into practice (on purpose!) I could understand it better and get my mind wrapped around the idea. I would actually recommend this for new drivers so they can really see what happens. Bad on tires, good for the mind.

Now quit spreading rumors about us on other boards and get back to mm.org.



-- Jay

 

Its about car control -shifting weight and balance

If you are all the way off the throttle and just braked (In a straight line please), The weight will be up front in your car, a lot of weight ....

You then turn at a high rate of speed still and your back wheels have very little weight on them, your car suddenly slides sideways, rear end coming around front !!!

It's called off-throttle oversteer, I have videos to show you it...

 

3. DO NOT LIFT! - "Don't lift - seriously, do NOT lift" followed by the next go- around commentary, "You lifted last time, which is why we went around in fast, spinning circles - this time DON'T DO IT!"

Scobib,

I know that's a horrible feeling, but you presented the experience in a very funny way

 

I've seen it at autocrosses and felt the sensation of throttle steering on the track. How about sharing a video or two for those who haven't seen it?

 

I've had a few, but the most interesting was a gentleman who at first seemed to take instruction pretty well. He came to me in a student swap initiated by his first instructor because they weren't making much progress.

I thought my instructor friend was wrong at first. The student would do pretty much whatever I asked him to do... But only if I asked If I talked him through every driver input for an entire lap, we turned a pretty lap. If I stopped, even for a single moment, the results were totally unpredictable.

After a half-session of very successful remote control driving, I asked him if he was ready to do a lap with no spoken instruction. He said he was. When we got to the braking zone for Turn 1, he did not seem to remember the necessity of removing his foot from the accelerator and applying the brakes. Despite my intention of letting him do it on his own, I quickly found myself desperately urging him brake, brake, BRAKE, BRAKE!! We did get the car slowed enough to make the turn, though our line was not what you would call pretty.

It was late in the weekend, so I just resumed my remote-control approach and made the best of it. I've often wondered since then if he would have even turned the wheel, let alone tried to slow the car. He was a nice fellow, but seriously OSB. I wish I could have taught him more, but at least I was successful in honoring the first rule of instructing: bring it home shiny.

 

Sounds familiar....sounds like me in the passenger seat of an oversteering Jetta, followed by.....BOOM.

(he braked instead..)

 

http://www.sbtontheweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23491

Page down until the Link for CHASE VIDEO .... Here is the Link

Watch closely at 2 minutes into the video ... watch the MINI brake ...Weight shifts to front, then he turns, rear wheel lifts, car slides around, off track ...throwing debris onto the track, he was fine, car was fine, no damage

http://www.sbtontheweb.com/forum/att...achmentid=2412

 

Yes, you can use trailing throttle oversteer to your advantage - as long as you don't overdo it... Also, a LOT of it depends on how much rear bar you have - some 22mm rear bars don't allow progressive breakaway, but instead can induce snap oversteer even at the slightest hint of trailing throttle. I've experienced that many times in cars with the rear bar set on full stiff...

I routinely use little lifts to get the rear end to rotate through slaloms ans set the car for the next cone, but it take some practice and you have to be butter-smooth on the transitions with the wheel...

Like I said, the number one rule in my book is DON'T LIFT, even IF you feel it's counter-intuitive. When the suspension is all loaded up under steady state throttle, it doesn't take much to upset the whole shootin' match. On a FWD car, the worst that can happen is that you get a bit of understeer, while on a RWD car you may get some power oversteer (which is easier to correct for IMHO, depending on the car's suspension).

And yes, MrV, part of the fun of a car control clinic is getting to experience both understeer and oversteer in a controlled environment... It's easy to see how quickly things can go awry, ain't it?

 

Nah, you'll be fine - learning to steer through the corners with the throttle is fun and definitely can be the fastest way around...

We're talking about lifting off the gas mid-corner, yes - a bad idea in general, unless you absolutely need to change the attitude and position of the car in the middle of a corner. You do have to be careful with it, though.

If you feel the rear end stepping out, most people's first thought is to lift more - that's not the right thing to do. Instead, roll back into the throttle and correct.

You'll get plenty of practice lifting off and braking in a straight line, and then using steady state throttle or feeding in throttle slowly as you round the bend (depending on the corner). Later, as you gain confidence and ability, you'll find yourself trail braking into the corner and rolling on the gas with more confidence...

It's all about learning! You'll have a blast...

 

One other thing I have learned while instructing at the autocross... The Cooper S has a propensity for spinning the inside front tire on many corners as that corner is unloaded - and even more so if the student's got a heavy right foot.

I find myself continuously explaining that:

A. This is very hard on the tires...
B. Feeding the throttle in sloooooowly, instead of just using the gas as an on-off switch is indeed a much quicker way around the course...

The regular Cooper (which is what I drive), on the other hand, has less of a propensity for this - except on very tight corners where the rear end really squats on exit. In general, I find that I can get on the gas much sooner in a Cooper than I can in an S... Adding in a little extra negative camber in the front makes a HUGE difference in this on both cars - and even more so with r-comps.

 

Interesting to hear how the person will feel in a month, just add to my reasons to be nervous.

 

I act as DE for SCCA Solo II autocross and have gone to BMW CCA driving schools in my area 5 times over the last three years. If I get asked to be a DE for the driving school even though I would be good I will be declining due to liability issues.

Those that accept being a DE should always keep safety in mind for themselves, their students, and the track workers/ spectators. Maintaining control of the car at high speed is of utmost priority. The faster you go the more skill you will need to apply at the right time and the more easily you can get into trouble.

Two Driver instructor nightmares:
An instructor and student in a Honda S2000 taking a sweeping constant radius turn a little too fast when the student abruptly let off the throttle upsetting the balance of the car, lost control, hit a barrier, flipped over. No one injured. Same day she ordered a new S2000 from the dealership, car totaled.

Another instructor with years of experience was driving a student's BMW Z4 during a rainy day going through a small S chicane turn about 60-70 mph lost control of the back end spun around and hit a fixed barrier and smashed in the front left bumper. The instructor owns and drives on the track the same Z4. Gotta slow down in the rain no matter how light and be smoother on inputs to make up for loss of traction.

To be a good instructor you need to figure out what your student needs. Some students learn quickly and remember what to do- they are easy to teach. Some students are overloaded with sensory input on the track and can't remember a thing unless you guide them all the time just like in the example given. They need to make the driving ingrained by practicing the same techniques lap after lap. The student who can critique himself and identify his own mistakes will be able to start doing self correction.

The other thing to look for in both student and instructor is fatigue. You need all of your physical and mental attention on the task to do your best. If you are getting tired and dizzy or dehydrated you will not be able to think straight and perform at your best. You'll need to recognize that and pull off the track early to rest. Same with recognizing that your car (tires or brakes) is not handling as well as you'd like and you can make a early exit from your session in a safe way.

 

Minhune,

Thats' a great point. I was way from track events for nearly twenty years. I was reminded, thru experience, how mentally and physically challenging it is to drive in a smoothand consistent manner while being fast. And, ya can't quite get out and take a coffee break either.

I had to remember to apply some of my cycling training after my first event; my shoulders were so tight and tense...I was probably sqeeeeezing the steering wheel too. Next time around I concentrated on keeping a very fluid and relaxed upper body. The experience was much better.

I actually mounted my Camelback behind the seat for one stint to see if it was worth the bother...just pretending to be an endurance driver. It worked!

 

Throttle steer..... I use it at LRP all the time as its a fast sweeping track, as opposed to NHIS where if you watch the video in my sig (click pic) the S2000 lifts in corner 11. (Yes, to those who have seen it, it's an old video)

As far as never lifting, that can be sometimes dangerous in a Mini. I, myself. almost ate the famous blue Armco (spell) at the Glen when I didn't lift enough. Had to really lift at the last moment to radically bring the rear around and ended up in a snap back situation. It was the only time I had an instructor in the car that weekend as he is known as one of the best. The Video shows his amazingly quick thinking as an instructor. We missed the Armco by about 6". I'll try and find and load that video if I can.

I've been asked to instruct, but I fear it a bit. Bit of a control freak you might say . If I did I would look for spots on a track that I could ask my student to lift and to understand what happens and how to recover. That's why I really like what BMWCCA does at NHIS. You have to complete a day of wet skid pad, evasive maneuvers and a autoX at the end of the day before you can enter the race track. Nothing was as effective as that to give me confidence in a FWD car.

 

LOL, I have done a lot of autocross instruction. Most students are fine. The ones that aren't usually make for funny stories Driving event's might not be so funny.

Last year, I hopped in a guys car, and he had the TOTAL gangsta lean going. I diplomatically say, "well, I like to have my seat a little bit more upright, so I can have more control of the steering wheel". He fires back, "ya, the last instructor said that, too, but this is how I drive". Ok, have fun with that.

Then there are students that downshift EVERY corner And it's usually timed poorly, like I'd have already been on the gas for 20ft, and they're coasting trying to get the thing in 1st. I usually say, "if my 115HP Mini can pull out of this corner in 2nd, your <whatever> can, too"

Anyhow, I've never instructed at a track event, and I'm not sure if I'd want to. I see some ya-hoo's out there in hellaciously fast cars, that I frankly wouldn't want to ride with. Autocross is slow enough that I normally don't get worried.

Edit - I should say that 99.995% of autocross students are fun, and a pleasure to spend the day with. So I always take the offer to instruct at an autocross school.

 

I'll be instructing at a PCA AX102 school on Sunday... might have a few more fun stories to share!

 

A friend of my sister says "you either have a good story, or a good date!".

As a student, I've never had a problem trusting the instructor. On one of my lessons (at Thunderhill in CA, a VERY forgiving track for beginners, there's only one turn where you can hit anything other than a grassy field...) the instructor would help me steer to place the car and get used to using the full track. Felt wierd at first...

And I love club events, where you're not on a clock, and you can focus on improving, one turn at a time. Creeping up to more speed with more control.....

The pucker factor is real good feedback, if you feel it, you're doing something wrong!

But I think all newbies hear and don't understand the weight shift with lifting, or getting scared a braking, and getting really surprised they didn't get more control, they got less. Learning that is counter intuitive, like getting more control in skiing by leaning forward, not backwards!

Matt

 

Well, this Sunday's AX102 school proved uneventful... I got a couple MINI students who had already been to several schools - in this case, I was just trying to beat their times in their cars, else I'd have felt like a complete tool!

I've recruited them to come win a couple more classes from the BMW guys...

 

I was a student at a one day driving instruction event last summer. Here is the nightmare for my instructor -- we are doing a braking drill. I go fast, instructor yells out at last mintue which direction to point the car, I am supposed to brake and end up at a certain point.

Everytime he said left, I went right. Everytime he said right, I went left.

I had the same problem with driving school as a teenager. Instructor would say take the next right, and I would go left.

 

OK, so I'm at Road Atlanta this past weekend for a BMW CCA Driver's Ed event. It's Friday afternoon and the Instructors are enjoying a pleasant day of "orientation". All was well until I unintentionally broke rule #4 (Never teach you students your bad habits!)

I was on track and hooked up with another driver that was especially well-matched to me in terms of speed. We had similar driving styles. I was faster in some parts of the course; he was faster in other parts. We swapped spots several times over the course of about a half-hour. As we ran together we learned each other's strengths and weaknesses. We began to trust each other a good deal. It was all very friendly and courteous... all well within the rules... But to a degree we had our own little race we were running and we both wanted to win.

After the session ended, we shared a thumbs up and I went back to my paddock. Within a few minutes, a young man appeared and introduced himself as my student for the weekend. Apparantly, selected students were permitted to participate in the Instructor orientation day prior to the regular weekend Driver's Ed event. And he had known I was his instructor all along Now nothing I said all weekend would speak as loudly as the spirited driving we had engaged in on Friday! And he knew several of my bad habits

As things turned out, we got along well all weekend. He did nothing to make me regret my ill-advised impromptu "race" and I think I was able to help him improve in a few areas. But it could have been not so good. Lesson learned: Look more closely at car numbers to identify students. You may not want them to learn your bad habits