Yes, an adjustible sway bar and LFB will help a FWD car rotate, but it won't solve the two biggest problems with the CMS- torque steer and inability to put power down coming out of a tight corner.

 

That's easy! It's nothing equal-length half-shafts or RWD can't handle!

Actually, I've never tracked my CMS but, back in the day, with the rear shocks' jounce adjusted to the firmest setting and the front shocks' rebound adjusted to firm, I found that with judicious LFB and a well-timed, progressive application of the right foot, I could actually come out of corners surprisingly fast for a FWD. Of course, that was on an '87 D-Stock Civic Si with R rubber...

IMHO, nothing beats the advantage of weight transfer during acceleration like the RWD layout!

 

If price wasn't an issue would you even question getting the AWD?

I live in Colorado and I've driven front wheel drive cars in the snow but I don't like to. AWD works so well in the snow and grips hard in corners. I don't think I'll ever own another FWD vehicle again.

 

After driving all day through yesterday's Nor'Easter, I'm very happy to have gone with the All4 !

 

Having ALL4 does eliminate some of the torque steer present in FWD Cooper S

 

having gone from RWD to FWD to part-time 4WD to AWD, there is no going back at any point along the path

my cms all4 is my first AWD, but AWD was the #1 item on my decision tree when i started looking for a new car

also, the cms all4, both auto and manual, is the only mini i have ever driven

scott

 

my cms all4 has NO TORQUE STEER

on a perfectly flat airport ramp (offroad situation), i can go from steady speed in first gear (or any gear) at 2500 rpm, to full throttle to redline, then lift off the throttle completely and coast back to 2500 rpm, all with no hands on the steering wheel and the cms all4 remains perfectly straight

on roads, sometimes there is a slight pull to the right, but i believe that is road crown, not torque steer

scott

 

Gotta ask yourself a few questions.
-Do you tend to drive in the snow? like do you hide inside when the weather is bad or do you tend to drive through anything?

-Are you a skier/boarder?
- Will you actually buy a set of dedicated snow tires/sensors/rims?

- Do you tend to bomb turns? or drive at the posted speeds?

trq steer? ehh. It's a not a Speed3. But you will def notice it in the FWD model.

The actual difference MPG btwn FWD/AWD on the CM are ~1mph
-A few hard pulls in either car will zero this difference
Automobile mag &(mine so far) are an avg of 26.x mixed mpg (ive never seen sticker hwy mph)

-The 1/2sec acceleration difference is a marketing stat.
Do you drive very aggressively, most of the time? or like most normal ppl. ?
I find my manual AWD quite entertaining until it reaches the point where the lack of HP plays a roll. Not the 0-60


AWD in the snow is nothing like FWD. Yes, its gets you moving. that means no spinning, that means pulling out when you want to, that means more grip over FWD.

Yes, dedicated snows are better than A/S. Snows on an AWD are amazing!
If your getting snows, why not have them on the AWD.


Auto vs manual: the updated clutch surface material is now in use on Nov/12 models of CM's. its a band aid fix, but there are also tons of ppl w/o clutch issues. (me included)
You either want a manual or you dont.
I wanted manual/AWD for ~$30K. it was the CMs4 or a WRX.

I think the AWD disadvantages are few, if any. Other the initial price AWD is the winner for me. (now if you lived in Cali/FL etc.. FWD would be a good option)

 

Try to accelerate when turning. You would notice that steering wheels pulled in opposite direction trying to make car go straight.
If road not perfectly smooth - car will start jumping left and right.

(it may be normal and I just used to driving RWD cars)

 

I can echo some of the comments shared here. The ALL4 does not have any torque steer. The 2WD S does have torque steer. We test drove both, the S ALL4 and the S 2WD, and the 2WD definitely had torque steer. I can also say that the 2WD non-S does not have torque steer, not enough power!

We decided to get the ALL4. We also have a non-S. Both have dedicated snow tires for winter. Coming from having AWD Subarus in the past, nothing beats AWD with snow tires. AWD with all seasons do fine, but it is night and day much better with snow tires. I would take a 2WD with snow tires to drive over an AWD with all seasons any day. There is no comparison. I would take AWD with snow tires over that, though.

That being said, if you decided to get the 2WD S, I would highly recommend snow tires for winter in Chicago.

Both of our MINIs:



Snow Tires:

 

Just joined the group have owned a 2012 CM All4 for all of two weeks...
I havent had any experience driving in snow or ice with the CM yet but have had
AWD/4WD's forever. One advantage of the AWD is that it eliminates the need to 'chain up'. I cant speak for other areas of the country but out here CALTRANS wont let you over the hill without chains or AWD/4WD an M+S.

 

Hey all. I decided to go with the CMS in 2WD with a manual. I test drove both for an extended period as service loaners and didn't notice much of a difference at least with my type of driving. The lower price point in the 2WD allowed me to get some of the options that I really wanted. I take delivery mid-June and am very excited!

 

The 2WD has an amazing amount of grip. I too was leaning toward the AWD but after driving the 2WD R60 around these past few weeks in heavy rain, the car never became unsettled. I even pushed it a bit to find the limit and could not get under-steer from it. I am truly amazed (18" wheels with Goodyear runflats). I also took it through a few inches of standing water due to flooding and again, it held firm which made me not regret passing up the AWD.

Other advantages include better acceleration, slightly better MPG and probably a slightly sportier control. I am 100 percent certain it will be fine in the snow and can't wait to try it out this winter.

 

Either you don't know what understeer is, or you were not actually pushing it at all. *Every* stock FWD car and most stock AWD/RWD cars have steady-state understeer approaching the limit. Come on now.

How did you feel about the torque steer, or could you not get it to do that either?

 

the fwd version has very little, if any torque steer.

 

You must not be pressing the gas pedal very hard.

The fact is, the Countryman S has some of the worst torque steer of any sporty FWD car sold today. I've experienced it over and over on test drives and dealership loaners. It's also confirmed by many magazine reviews of the car, which also mention the terrible torque steer.

IMO, torque steer in the S is the primary selling point of the All4.

 

i finally got a chance to drive a cms fwd ... massive torque steer ... worse than my 1976 vw rabbit

scott

 

you test drove a few? I DAILY DRIVE a fwd cms. it doesnt have very much torque steer, only noticeable at wot.

if you want massive, dangerous torque steer, drive a first gen mazdaspeed 3. it makes left turns at wot.

 

i havent noticed it. and ive been driving rwd cars for 15 yrs.

it very little but not nearly as bad as you guys make it sound.

again, drive a mazdaspeed 3, or s 3.5l maxima. thats what torque steer is to me.

coming from a lifetime of rwd cars and a awd jeep, i honestly dont notice it.

but if makes you guys feel justified in buying the awd, well hey whatever floats your boat.

 

If you want to minimize your car's faults to make YOU feel better, then carry on. But it's a readily apparent and well documented fact that the S has really bad torque steer. I noticed it, everyone else here notices it, and every magazine article about the car mentions it. You're right, the torque steer in the Mini is not as bad as a Gen 1 Speed3 or a V6 Maxima, but for a car with ~90 lb-ft less than those, it is awful. I spent two weeks in an S and couldn't stand it. The fact is that the suspension geometry just isn't very well sorted like, say, a VW GTI or the like.

Yes, if you pussyfoot around town you aren't likely to notice it (like the user in another thread who said the Countryman doesn't understeer). But if you enjoy driving in a spirited fashion like most of us, it is very apparent.

 

Completely agree - FWD has really noticeable torque steer. Just mash gas when exiting corner.

AWD will just rotate back and shoot straight.

 

you make some pretty big assumptions to drive home your fact about how I drive when you've never met me or know anything about me, my driving habits or what I do or dont do with my car.

I autocross and track both my s54 m-coupe and autocross my mini pretty regularly. Both sit on coilovers. So dont talk to me about pussyfooting.

I also dont need to make myself feel better as Im making a point to YOU even if the car did oversteer left or right every time I hit that gas, it's no skin off my back. I enjoy the car just the same. I just dont like that youre spreading misinformation. So dont try to turn it back on me.

People on the forums are so funny with getting into stupid little arguments like this. I daily the damn car, I would know better than you would since you read a magazine and test drove a fwd mini a couple times.

I dont need some magazine to prove anything. I actually dont really need to prove anything to you or anyone on this forum at all. If you're so desperate to win this argument so bad. Ok I concede. The car pulls like mfer left and right. Happy?

I find it funny you get so worked up over making a point like this. Jumping all over me disagreeing with you and acting like the guy who doesn't understand under steer an idiot to drive your point home.


Your life must be pretty empty and pointless. Enjoy "winning" an argument on the internet. Loser.

 

Haha, if the MINI had such bad torque steer, believe me the GTI had it too. I had it for a little while when my car back then in '08 was getting fixed.

And if you can't handle pushing the pedal down hard with all that torque steer, get a torque arm insert and your all set;-).

 

amen.

 

Agree. We test drove a Countryman S FWD and an All4. They drive like two completely different cars. The FWD had lots of torque steer but we were really putting the turbo to work. Is the steering torque good or bad? Neither. I'd say all that torque is a good thing and means there is something under the hood that's wanting to be let free to eat up some road.

Having said that, the All4 is smooth, deliberate, and feels controlled under hard acceleration. It's like you point and shoot and it goes. No torque steer like the S FWD. The All4 feels just a tad slower than the FWD under hard acceleration; however, it's not enough of a difference to say "no" to the All4.

That's why Mini offers choices and price points.