R60 Smelly Clutch
5th Gear
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 659
Likes: 1
From: Kirkland, WA
I have a 2012 CMS All4. Less than 3 months and LESS than 4000 KILOMETERS! I do not commute. The town I live in has very little stop and go traffic. Not really a terribly hilly terrain in Southern Ontario either. Last week, going up a slope in slow traffic, smoke started coming out of the hood. Thought the car was on fire. Managed to pull off and let the engine cool. Smelt clutch. To the dealer next day. Their solution has so far been - it is clutch wear, not covered under warranty, possibly due to my driving habits, and $2000+ to take out transmission and replace clutch! I was gobsmacked. I have tried reasoning with them that I am an experienced manual driver, do not ride my clutch and have not misused my vehicle. To no avail. They just won't accept this should be a manufacturing defect. I just had this very uneasy feeling about being at the receiving end of something unfair. While searching online, I found this thread. Wow! As I understand it, there are many owners with similar complaints. Not only should this be considered a manufacturing issue but MINI should not be replacing with the same part!
here's the s4 info
clutch disc is 235mm
http://mini.sewellparts.com/oem-cata...60SX-2012.html
on the standard S (fwd) is the same size/pn
http://mini.sewellparts.com/oem-cata...R60S-2012.html
the Non S (NA) is only a 200mm
http://mini.sewellparts.com/oem-cata...-R60-2012.html
235mm is a sufficient size. the DM FW is the issue. the springs are not strong enough.
As you can see in the illustration, the clutch discs in DM systems are unsprung. The springs are in the DM FW.
(I previously mentioned working on a solution w/ a reputable manufacturer, I need a core for R&D) It would be a proper single mass conversion.
How the dealership is charging $2000+ for a $600 clutch kit is beyond me
clutch disc is 235mm
http://mini.sewellparts.com/oem-cata...60SX-2012.html
on the standard S (fwd) is the same size/pn
http://mini.sewellparts.com/oem-cata...R60S-2012.html
the Non S (NA) is only a 200mm
http://mini.sewellparts.com/oem-cata...-R60-2012.html
235mm is a sufficient size. the DM FW is the issue. the springs are not strong enough.
As you can see in the illustration, the clutch discs in DM systems are unsprung. The springs are in the DM FW.
(I previously mentioned working on a solution w/ a reputable manufacturer, I need a core for R&D) It would be a proper single mass conversion.
How the dealership is charging $2000+ for a $600 clutch kit is beyond me
1st Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, WA
Just a follow up on my situation.
I posted earlier about my burning/smelling clutch issue, which initially occurred just 3 weeks after taking delivery of the car and became a real problem (smoke coming from under the hood etc.) around 5K miles.
After some back and forth with Seattle MINI, they agreed to replace the clutch and the cost was covered entirely by Seattle MINI and MINI. While in there they also found an 'oil leak from volume control valve' and some oil in the wiring section so they resealed the oil pan and lastly performed a recall fix for a coolant temp sensor.
While I'm not happy with the issues I've encountered at only 5K miles on my 2012 CSA4 manual, I'd give full props to Ryan at Seattle Mini for taking care of the issues, even if it did take them over a week to do so.
I don't think we're going to keep the Countryman though, regardless, as it is a shared car between my wife and I and she doesn't like driving it... so moving to a used '05 "Saabaru" (really an Impreza WRX turbo wagon) we found and happy with that.
Good luck to others having issues here - Michael
I posted earlier about my burning/smelling clutch issue, which initially occurred just 3 weeks after taking delivery of the car and became a real problem (smoke coming from under the hood etc.) around 5K miles.
After some back and forth with Seattle MINI, they agreed to replace the clutch and the cost was covered entirely by Seattle MINI and MINI. While in there they also found an 'oil leak from volume control valve' and some oil in the wiring section so they resealed the oil pan and lastly performed a recall fix for a coolant temp sensor.
While I'm not happy with the issues I've encountered at only 5K miles on my 2012 CSA4 manual, I'd give full props to Ryan at Seattle Mini for taking care of the issues, even if it did take them over a week to do so.
I don't think we're going to keep the Countryman though, regardless, as it is a shared car between my wife and I and she doesn't like driving it... so moving to a used '05 "Saabaru" (really an Impreza WRX turbo wagon) we found and happy with that.
Good luck to others having issues here - Michael
1st Gear
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
typically these types of issues result in a letter from a lawyer years down the road, offering us $10 if there is any money left from the class action suit against the manufacturer.
for those of you already conquering this obstacle, might i recommend you consider talking to a class action attorney? if they find sufficient cause for action they will typically take the case for free.
it seems that there will, in time, be ample evidence.
for those of you already conquering this obstacle, might i recommend you consider talking to a class action attorney? if they find sufficient cause for action they will typically take the case for free.
it seems that there will, in time, be ample evidence.
Neutral
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: ON, Canada
I had mentioned about the reports of the clutch burning issue to my Service Adviser at the Mini Dealership. (2012 MCS All4 manual). He indicated an unwillingness to accept that forums such as these would necessarily have diagnostic information. I am heartened to know that Mini Dealerships in some places in the US are covering the clutch replacement/repair. Here (in Ontario, Canada) I am not sure if that is the case. I have been driving manual for more than twenty years now, so it is more than just a little bothersome that I am being told my driving habit has contributed to this clutch burn!
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,147
Likes: 45
From: Philly Suburbs
Perhaps you should proffer Automobile magazine whose long-term Countryman had clutch failure at 15k miles. There are other enthusiast periodicals and blogs that also indict the clutch, just read though this thread for references.
Neutral
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: ON, Canada
Thank you Midnight Blue for the magazine reference. One question about the clutch and gearbox issue : could a loud rattling noise at cold start be related? I started noticing the sound in possibly the second week of ownership. The sound goes away after a couple of minutes and/or on depressing the clutch/ changing gears. The SA at the dealership was aware of this since he referred to an "internal memo" on it. Based on what I have been told, I have been given to understand it is some convex combination of turbo and exhaust matters and is normal for the car. I grudgingly accepted since I did not know better. However, my subsequent clutch experience has aggravated my concerns and I found a video on youtube pisted by Jan Malý which is uncannily similar to the sound I got in my brand new car (2012 CMS All4 manual). There Jan refers to it as "clutch/gearbox rattle".
The link is:
I have a video of my car's rattle that I will post too.
Any thoughts on this?
The link is:
Any thoughts on this?
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,296
Likes: 5
From: north/central New Jersey
It's the throwout bearing in the clutch. The sound is not normal, and if it's under warranty it should be replaced. On the other hand, there's a huge labor bill associated with this repair. Our R53 had the noise, and was out of warranty, so I did not bother making the repair for many years...never seemed to get worse.
5th Gear
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 659
Likes: 1
From: Kirkland, WA
Thank you Midnight Blue for the magazine reference. One question about the clutch and gearbox issue : could a loud rattling noise at cold start be related? I started noticing the sound in possibly the second week of ownership. The sound goes away after a couple of minutes and/or on depressing the clutch/ changing gears. The SA at the dealership was aware of this since he referred to an "internal memo" on it. Based on what I have been told, I have been given to understand it is some convex combination of turbo and exhaust matters and is normal for the car. I grudgingly accepted since I did not know better. However, my subsequent clutch experience has aggravated my concerns and I found a video on youtube pisted by Jan Malý which is uncannily similar to the sound I got in my brand new car (2012 CMS All4 manual). There Jan refers to it as "clutch/gearbox rattle".
The link is: http://www.yom/watch?v=ON3tVECk99I
I have a video of my car's rattle that I will post too.
Any thoughts on this?
The link is: http://www.yom/watch?v=ON3tVECk99I
I have a video of my car's rattle that I will post too.
Any thoughts on this?
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,296
Likes: 5
From: north/central New Jersey
The throwout bearing on our '12 CMSA4 does not make any noise, at least not yet (only 6k miles on it). My sister has a three year old 335i with more than 50k miles and it makes no noise either. There's no reason that such a repair should not be covered under warranty. The typical dealer excuse that "they all do it" is simply not true and should not be accepted. They are just trying to avoid the large labor bill associated with making the repair.
the throw out bearing commonly makes a noise, rattle when idling. it's kind of normal on some cars. I know it is on my VR6. A lightweight FW makes it worse.
In that video it;s hard to tell from where it's coming. Kind of sounds like valvetrain noise. I know my CMS4 is a tad noisy upon cold starts. Lifter tap from this oil will do that.
In that video it;s hard to tell from where it's coming. Kind of sounds like valvetrain noise. I know my CMS4 is a tad noisy upon cold starts. Lifter tap from this oil will do that.
Neutral
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: ON, Canada
An update on my clutch situation (2012 CMS All4 manual): The SA at the dealer called me to say that corporate will cover my clutch repair as a "one time" deal given my low miles. Recall from my earlier post that I had less than 4000 km when I had (possibly) clutch burn and resulting smoke from the engine. The repair took a few weeks but the dealer gave me a vehicle to cover for the period. I am relieved at the immediate solutions but did have to spend a lot of time and energy on the matter and I still don't think I should have had to do that. I will just hope this will not recur again. I am quite confident of my manual shifting and did not accept that my driving habit could have contributed to the fiasco. Hopefully Mini / BMW is looking carefully at this potential problem. I will keep the list updated since I still do not have my car back. In the interim - thank you to all those who responded. This was a great resource and I did share the insights shared here with the SA at the dealership.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,147
Likes: 45
From: Philly Suburbs
When my clutch was replaced, it felt like a whole new car. Engagement was much more immediate. Had to relearn the the feel. That being said, the clutch is really no more precise than when it was first purchased and before the clutch started to wear.
Neutral
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Fairbanks, AK
I had my CM All4 for a month put on less than 1700 miles and had the same thing happen. On a major highway right before a tunnel in rush hour traffic. I learned to drive on a manual, even had a first gen mini that I traded in for this CM so no issues with how to drive. This was July 2011. All in all my CM was towed to the dealership and everything was completely covered. I have since driven across North America and put on over 20,000 miles with no issues.
5th Gear
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 659
Likes: 1
From: Kirkland, WA
not that I can tell, sans the initial getting use to it. first 2 days it was very sensitive.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,147
Likes: 45
From: Philly Suburbs
Vindication!
MINI Addresses Countryman Clutch Issue
"As part of the continual refinement and optimization of MINI vehicles, we have improved the take-off convenience and performance of all our MINI Countryman clutches by implementing some software updates as well as changing the clutch facing material to improve the feeling of the clutch engagement. We are sure that these changes will even further improve the convenience of our MINI Countryman models, and will be recognized and appreciated by our customers. These changes coincide with the start of production of our MINI John Cooper Works Countryman as of November 2012."
Still says nothing specifically about premature clutch wear but that surely could be considered part of the "performance" improvements.
Finally an official acknowledgement from MINI that there IS an issue with the clutch.
Now let's find out how difficult it is going to be to get the dealer to retrofit the clutch plate.
"As part of the continual refinement and optimization of MINI vehicles, we have improved the take-off convenience and performance of all our MINI Countryman clutches by implementing some software updates as well as changing the clutch facing material to improve the feeling of the clutch engagement. We are sure that these changes will even further improve the convenience of our MINI Countryman models, and will be recognized and appreciated by our customers. These changes coincide with the start of production of our MINI John Cooper Works Countryman as of November 2012."
Still says nothing specifically about premature clutch wear but that surely could be considered part of the "performance" improvements.
Finally an official acknowledgement from MINI that there IS an issue with the clutch.
Now let's find out how difficult it is going to be to get the dealer to retrofit the clutch plate.
^ thats great info. I actually just read this morning in Automobile mag about their longterm 11' wrap up. They also mentioned in less detail about the clutches receiving a new material.
Probably just going from an organic disc to a sintered type. An improvement that should have come that way anyhow. Still the real issue is the Dual Mass FW.
This is a cheap, band aid fix.
Probably just going from an organic disc to a sintered type. An improvement that should have come that way anyhow. Still the real issue is the Dual Mass FW.
This is a cheap, band aid fix.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,296
Likes: 5
From: north/central New Jersey
MINI Addresses Countryman Clutch Issue
"As part of the continual refinement and optimization of MINI vehicles, we have improved the take-off convenience and performance of all our MINI Countryman clutches by implementing some software updates as well as changing the clutch facing material to improve the feeling of the clutch engagement. We are sure that these changes will even further improve the convenience of our MINI Countryman models, and will be recognized and appreciated by our customers. These changes coincide with the start of production of our MINI John Cooper Works Countryman as of November 2012."
Still says nothing specifically about premature clutch wear but that surely could be considered part of the "performance" improvements.
Finally an official acknowledgement from MINI that there IS an issue with the clutch.
Now let's find out how difficult it is going to be to get the dealer to retrofit the clutch plate.
"As part of the continual refinement and optimization of MINI vehicles, we have improved the take-off convenience and performance of all our MINI Countryman clutches by implementing some software updates as well as changing the clutch facing material to improve the feeling of the clutch engagement. We are sure that these changes will even further improve the convenience of our MINI Countryman models, and will be recognized and appreciated by our customers. These changes coincide with the start of production of our MINI John Cooper Works Countryman as of November 2012."
Still says nothing specifically about premature clutch wear but that surely could be considered part of the "performance" improvements.
Finally an official acknowledgement from MINI that there IS an issue with the clutch.
Now let's find out how difficult it is going to be to get the dealer to retrofit the clutch plate.
1st Gear
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
From: Rockland County, NY
But as the article states- What about those of us with the exisitng sh**ty clutch? I'm at 12.6M miles, and will introduce this to the dealer when I have my first service at 15,000.
I would like to see the entire press release. I think I will be posting this website, and associated links to the MiniUSA Facbook page (if I can).
I just sent a note to my salesperson at Prestige Mini- asking her to forward to the Service Manager for clarification. If I get anything back I will post.
I would like to see the entire press release. I think I will be posting this website, and associated links to the MiniUSA Facbook page (if I can).
I just sent a note to my salesperson at Prestige Mini- asking her to forward to the Service Manager for clarification. If I get anything back I will post.
Last edited by Rockland; Nov 8, 2012 at 01:46 PM.
