Exactly! My point was that the car felt like it was teetering on the brink of destruction, and there were only 2" of standing water.

Teampajn made my point a lot more clearly: it ain't just the intake that's at risk.

Years ago my dad had a leased Ford Capri, and we drove it down to the beach. While we were there, a squall kicked up and flooded the area. We tried to drive around in the flood, with water coming half-way up the door-panels. We got home, and the car was still working. When we turned the car in (a few days later), the dealer, who was a friend, called to say that the alternator had mysteriously fried itself. Go figure...

Even if the water is just a few inches deep, you have parts that will touch that water, and it will be flung all over the place under the hood.

Your ECU, power steering fan, perhaps even your alternator all sit relatively exposed, and none of them care much for water. Belts will slip, heat will fail to dissipate properly, etc. Some of this is true on all cars, and trying to make MINI responsible for how cars work is ridiculous.

I know guys who've gotten water in their Jeep intakes just splashing through shallow water. It's luck of the draw.

I feel really bad for BRG MINI, honestly. I'd hate to be there. But I've washed my car by spraying a torrent of water directly at the intake, and I've never flooded. I think she just had bad luck.

 

I remember reading a couple years ago of someone whose engine had been damaged by water ingestion. It was not replaced under warranty and they started several threads here using various screen names. The intake on the Cooper and MCS is above the grill, behind the solid part of the hood. Incoming air must first pass through the grill and then angle up to enter the opening in the radiator surround. Once past that point there is a vertical tube about 8" long attached to the bottom of the intake hose and open at the bottom, maybe an inch in diameter that is supposed to drain any incoming water. Then the air must travel another foot or so before it gets to the air cleaner assembly, and then, after passing through the air cleaner, travel another foot back to the TB and bypass valve assembly. My point is that you would have to have a pretty big splash, almost a standing wave to get water that far into the intake. Thats not to say that it cant happen. The bottom edge of the front air damn is about 6 inches above the road and if you go fast enough it will generate a bow wave.

The warranty covers defects in parts and workmanship. The proximate cause of the engine failure was apparently water ingestion, not a fault in a part or in workmanship. The cause of the water ingestion may be due to a faulty design or to driver error. I think that it would be extremely difficult to force MINI to pay for your repairs, not because you don't deserve it, but because there are just too many loopholes that let them off the hook. You could spend a fortune in attorney fees and still not win. It might be cheaper to get a used engine from a wrecked MINI than to replace yours with a new one, or even repair the one you have. I hate it when this type of crap happens because we are so powerless to do anything about it.

 

i looked around on mini2 and didn't find any incidents of this involving an 's'.

is this primarily a cooper issue due to difference in air intake position??

post #39 from this mini2 thread is interesting:

2 mph in 3" of water == hydrolocked cooper engine
http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...ighlight=water

 

I've had an 02 Cooper and an 02S and the intake snorkles are in the same location.

 

Is there any after market products out yet that address the intake location issue to reduce this problem from occuring in the MC's? If not there should be a after market business looking at tackling this one.

 

I don't believe that story. It's just not possible. If there were only 3" of water (which the person measured at the curb, not where they drove through it), that wouldn't come into contact with anything other than the wheels and rims, especially if you're driving 2 mph (which is pretty damn hard to do). There's just no way to get water into the intake in that scenario. The person either plowed right through, or else realized too late that the water was deep, braked hard, and threw up water that way.

It's a shame that such shameless misinformation is being propagated on the forums, when there is such a legitimate danger that people need to be aware of. Anyone with half a brain can tell that that story is BS.

 

Re: the firemen...I had just stalled and the fire truck turned onto the street. I'm not sure how long it was, maybe 1-2 minutes. They pushed me over. Then they put yellow tape over each end of the street.

If I had been two minutes later I wouldn't have gone there. But I still think it could have already happened on the street I was on before because there was lots of splashing.

It was a situation where I didn't know what to do. That's all. Sometimes people make mistakes. Luckily I have insurance.

Maybe this thread should end now. Go on to another subject and try to forget.

 

Well that's the problem - a lot of people have zero common sense AND to make matters worse, believe anything they read on the internet.

 

Never! We're expert dead-horse-beaters! Next we'll embark into a lengthy discussion about your probable eating and grooming habits, and how that affects water displacement on a moving mass. Here comes the science!

 

This is a good discussion to help the rest of us avoid what happened here. None of us wants to have to replace an engine. I've learned something important that I did not know: keep RPMs high and go real slow through standing water. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty about the depth of water that requires us to take special precautions. I think we've all gone through puddles that are an inch or more in normal driving. I've driven on the freeway after rains where a small stream (probably an inch or two?) of water has formed, and when I drive through it I get a splash on my windshield. Do I run the risk of engine failure on the mini? If so, there is something seriously wrong with the design of the mini.

The mini2 site says to drive in reverse through standing water (a dangerout proposition in a convertible - poor visibility). Another good suggestion for high water.

It sounds to me like the real danger is standing water higher than the bottom of the bumper, which must be about 4-5 inches off the ground. Do I have that right?

The legal point I'm trying to make is that we have a right to expect our cars to perform normally in common driving situations. If there are special requirements for the mini that are different from the average car on the road, then mini has to clearly document those requirements. Otherwise the damage should be covered under the warranty. Every car will suffer damage running into a brick wall. They don't need to put that in the owners manual because there is nothing different about the mini from every other car on the road. It appears based on the number of people posting the need for new engines after driving through water that there is something different about the mini, and therefore if mini wants to avoid liability under the warranty they need to clearly disclose the differences. Otherwise, damage incurred in normal driving (less than a foot of water, based on what is disclosed in the manual) should be covered under warranty.

You are right about the express wararnty covering defects in material and workmanship. A design defect is a defect in materials. Moreover, the warranty of merchantability is implied in a consumer contract and cannot be disclaimed under the Mag-Moss act. The warranty of merchantability is a warranty that the vehicle is fit for the normal purposes for which it is to be used. The statement in the owners manual creates an express warranty, and if the car is used in accordance with the instructions and fails, it should be covered. So, I think you're just wrong about your legal analysis under several different grounds. If she was driving through four feet of water and as a result her engine failed (when other cars would not have suffered engine failure), I think she has a good legal case.

My last question is about my cooper s. Doesn't the air come through the added vent in the hood on the S, or is there a separate air intake lower down?

 

ROFL! Now THAT is one of the funniest things I've read in a while. . .and the best part? It's all TRUE because I read it on the Internet!!

 

There is a separate intake throught he colw vent at the base of the windshield.


Here's some real simple advice everyone. A car, no matter which one it is, is not a freaking BOAT. Don't prentend otherwise. If you think you'll be making WAVES and WAKES while driving - you shouldn't be in that particular spot. Go around.

 

FWIW, I don't agree with this advice. If the car is running, air is flowing out of the exhaust. 800rpm or 6000rpm, there is no risk of water going up the exhaust. If the car is not running, yes, but unless you've filled the entire exhaust system with water such that it acts like a banana in the tailpipe, there should be no ill effect.

Condolences to BRG. That would suck.

 

I learned recently that when the MINI's engine idles, there's mild suction coming from the tail-pipe. So, when idling through standing water, you're pulling water in through the exhaust. Seems utterly illogical, but you can verify it today. Turn the car on, let it idle, and cover the exhaust with your palm. Feel the suction, but don't get any bizarre ideas...

 

"You're not going to fall for the banana in the tailpipe?" - Axel Foley

 

ROFLMAO

 

Exactly.

As for suction from the exhaust, you're gonna have to work the physics with me on that one. I pledge to put no body part on, in or near my car's tailpipe. You may feel the exhaust pulsing, but as the engine is an air pump - in the front, out the back. If the air is going IN the exhaust, where is it exiting?

Now they're going to be telling us not to drive BACKWARDS through lots of water!

 

I think the ultimate lesson that ought to be learned here is that if someone says their car broke after driving through 4 inches of water, we should respond as if their car broke after driving through 4 inches of water.

Perhaps it was a fluke. Perhaps something in their car is physically broken or missing and caused this to happen. Give them the benefit of the doubt that what they said happened actually happened, to the best of their knowledge and if your only response is "that ought to be impossible" then so be it.

We shouldn't leap upon them like howler monkeys and accuse them of lying, being incompetent drivers, etc, just because we happen to think it's impossible.

 

Tell me then where are the exhaust gases going?

 

Out of the intake, I'd assume. But only if you're in reverse.

 

The story I am referring to in post #56 is absolutely and completely impossible, the way it's told. And we need to disqualify the misinformation if people are ever going to know what the actual risks are. Either that person was driving MUCH faster than 2 mph, or else something else happened, like a large splash or wave from a passing car.

I never called BRGMINI a liar; I just pointed out that (a) she clearly hadn't read the manual, or else she would have known about this danger and been more cautious, and (b) her estimate of the water's depth was probably low, since she understandably feels foolish and was trying to minimize her responsibility for what happened. Also it sounds, from her subsequent posts, that she was travelling at a pretty good clip.

I do agree with everyone that says that the manual should have a more prominent warning, and that dealers should make sure people are aware of ths issue.

Hydrolocking an engine in a situation like hers takes a combination of bad luck and bad judgment. Can we at least agree on that?

 

Just try it, and learn of the marvels of "back-pressure"...

 

I beg to differ




Anybody care to 'shop some bonnet stripes on this baby?

 

From HowStuffWorks.com:


During the exhaust stroke, a good way for an engine to lose power is through back pressure. The exhaust valve opens at the beginning of the exhaust stroke, and then the piston pushes the exhaust gases out of the cylinder. If there is any amount of resistance that the piston has to push against to force the exhaust gases out, power is wasted. Using two exhaust valves rather than one improves the flow by making the hole that the exhaust gases travel through larger.

In a normal engine, once the exhaust gases exit the cylinder they end up in the exhaust manifold. In a four-cylinder or eight-cylinder engine, there are four cylinders using the same manifold. From the manifold, the exhaust gases flow into one pipe toward the catalytic converter and the muffler. It turns out that the manifold can be an important source of back pressure because exhaust gases from one cylinder build up pressure in the manifold that affects the next cylinder that uses the manifold. The idea behind an exhaust header is to eliminate the manifold's back pressure. Instead of a common manifold that all of the cylinders share, each cylinder gets its own exhaust pipe. These pipes come together in a larger pipe called the collector. The individual pipes are cut and bent so that each one is the same length as the others. By making them the same length, it guarantees that each cylinder's exhaust gases arrive in the collector spaced out equally so there is no back pressure generated by the cylinders sharing the collector.

 

LOL That's not what back pressure on a car means.