Hi All,

Did some searching but comparable track threads were getting pretty old.

Here's the scoop: I'm looking for a car that might be able to compete with the Miatas in my track club's race group. The race group is separated into five classes from GT-1 to GT-5. GT-5 is the slowest. The groups are divided by power to weight ratio. The ratios are tweaked every year for competitive reasons, but currently to fit GT-5 the car can be no more powerful than 14.25 including driver. A stock R53 MCS comes in at 16.99 with me driving.

Currently, I dual-duty a '12 BMW 135i, which is an awesome car but dual duty cars are not competitive or practical in the club's race group (the R group requires some safety items like a roll cage, etc...). So I'm pondering potentially, in the next year or two, selling the BMW and buying a utility car/truck and also a track car that can compete in GT-5.

As you can imagine, GT-5 is dominated by Miatas, but it would be boring to be the 10th Miata in that class, so I was pondering other options and got inspired by my wife's '13 MCS.

Now, the best Miatas in GT-5 are running 1:51s at Laguna Seca and 2:01-03 at Sears Point, which is as fast as my stock 135i is (which is GT-3), so the bar here is high. An important caveat is that most of the Miatas are not pushing the limit of the class. Many either race in other series with different requirements, or were built for an old GT-6 class that no longer exists, meaning they are leaving power on the table, hence why I think I have a chance to beat them.

So, long post getting longer, but I'll try to wrap it up. My general youtube and google searching has shown me MCSs that can run 1:58ish at LS and 2:05ish at Sears, but these are not quite race cars so I know there's room there. I think a properly set up R53 or R56 MCS could get there based on the numbers, but I wanted to check with the forum experts!

For all intents and purposes, assume an initial total budget of probably $13,000 to buy and mod the car (I found an '06 MCS on autotrader today for $7,500 with 100K miles as a ballpark). Priorities would be curb weight first, as weight makes you faster everywhere. Second would be braking and suspension, as the Miatas are ridiculous in those categories. Third would be to press the Mini's advantage in power to the limit of the class. Tires are limited to non-R comps, so Nitto NT-01s or similar are the likely choice. And lastly, I don't want to have to trailer the car, so it's gotta be street legal and semi-streetable, so not stripping carpets and dashes etc... But other forms of weight reduction like racing seats, removing rear seats, etc... are all fair game.

So, ideas? Thoughts on MCS that could do it (R53 or R56)? Known issues (my BMW is severely compromised by the suspension which was designed to accommodate run flat tires. Perhaps BMW did the same with the Minis?)?

Thanks in advance for your inputs!

 

Well im not expert in racing at all, but i can tell you about how far mods will bring you.

having a modded RX7 i know what its like to have light and powerfull rwd car. not quite a miata but close.

maybe im a bit biased but the R53 would be the choice for me. a tad smaller and lighter than th R56.

power youll be ablt to get to at least 200-220 whp for pretty cheap, past that and you will spend boat loads of money. ( but your racing, so whats money anyway? )
the usual, intake, SC reduction pulley, header, catback, injectors and tune will get you to the 200whp mark. almost same in trq. this is where the R56 would be better in the power department cheaper to get more out of it, since its turboed.

out of the box mini handles pretty darn well. i did some mild suspenison upgrades, koni yellows and swift spprings, with fixed camber plates. poly bushings all around. and the car is for me perfect. comfortable, but very direct and goes where you want it. no suprises, even with out a rear sway bar you can get the tail out with throttle lift off or a touch of left foot braking.

braking in standerd form is good to but on a track they will heat up to fast. ( i know from thrashing my car around some back contry roads. i upgraded slotted rotors (all around), ebc red stuff pads(all around). SS brake lines and some good brake fluid. and it is now great for street driving and can take up a lot of heat. havnt seen any break fade yet and i tried to get some. ( could be diffrent on a track)


things to look out for. SC pto gear going bad, it goes bad then no more water pump. power steering pump, but that can be deleted if you wish. front shock towers can mushroom, you can get plates to deter that.

all i can think of now im sure others will chime in..... any other questions?

 

Thanks Greek. Good info for sure. Based on what I think is reduceable in weight, I think the power goal will end up being around 185 bhp, so it's good to hear that there's lots of ways to get there and beyond. Torque is also more important, so if the torque can go the same, that's very good (part of why the R53 was appealing since the HP/Torque numbers are very close).

Brake wise, I expect some ducting and race pads may be all it needs, and of course fluid. A BBK could be a last resort mod if the Miatas were still going deeper into corners. BBKs usually mean bigger wheels though, and wheels are the first place I'd go for the weight savings.

Appreciate the feedback.

 

Like Greek said, go R53. The weight differences aren't that huge, but the R53 is better equipped for racing, and the amount of high-speed aftermarket support for them is through the roof.
Also, it takes very little money to get going very fast. 17% reduction pulley, new air intake, new exhaust, new TMIC, a BPV, tune, etc. and you'll be flying.
And there is a lot of weight to strip off a MINI, not like on a Miata that comes practically as light as it can get. There's a lovely interior to tear out, full of amenities and carpet and leather, I've seen people lose hundreds of pounds from their cars in the past. Also, the standard wheels on the R53 weigh a ton. So there's some quick weight reduction.

Here's my thoughts though: Do you want to make the switch to a FWD racer?? I think the MCS is great to use on the road in spirited driving, but I'm just not sure how much fun it'll be having a FWD race car keeping up with Miatas. It can be down, for sure, the question is; do you want to do it? Haha.

If this is something you're interested in, I'll post a link here to a guy who REALLY turned his into an all-out racer. He has tons of weight-saving tips.

Cheers.

 

Thanks Junkie, that's good to hear.

I've tracked two FWD cars and two RWD cars. Other than the fact that the two RWDs had way more power, there's nothing about FWD that is inherently less fun that RWD in my experience. In fact, it can be an advantage in some corners.

However, if FWD is something that will keep the Mini from being competitive with the Miata, then it's a no go and I suppose I move on to something like an E30 BMW of some sort. I'm just not sure that's the case though. Typically FWD only becomes a limitation at around 250 hp, where the front tires simply cannot handle the braking, turning, and all that power.

 

I am a bit partial to the MCS over the MX5.

If I were going to make a a dedicated track day car or club racer I would go MCS, a R53 because I like the power band of the supercharger over the turbo.

Strip it bare add a cage and a competition seat and harness then start on the engine: pulleys, JCW injectors, plugs, coil pack, CAI. then onto the suspension and brakes don't forget cooling ducts.

Ahh, so many toys so little time...

 

Bare minimum requirements in the R Group are a four-point roll bar, a fire extinguisher, and a five point harness. So the first things to happen, if I went this route, would be strip out the rear of the car, have the roll bar installed, swap seats for race seats of some kind, and get the harness and extinguisher.

At that point, I'd look for any other weight savings opportunities that didn't compromise the street-ability of the car. Again, I'm not removing the dash and plastics and carpets and sound deadening, etc... because this isn't a 100% race car build and I don't have a 100% race car budget. This is a car with one purpose: to drive to the track in the morning, eat Miatas for breakfast without exceeding a 14.25 weight/power ratio, and drive home. :D

Then I'd move on to wheels/tires, brakes (can anyone comment on the stock brakes ability on track, assuming race pads, not OEMs?), then suspension. Doing the suspension at this point conveniently leads to corner balancing which would give me actual car weight and therefore how much power I can add within the GT-5 limits.

 

just in case, probably because i wasn't clear.... i dont have a BBK same size rotors just slotted. and same calipers.

"race" pads will chew up the stock rotors faster than you can blink an eye.... i had ebc green stuff pads on a set of brand new oem rotors and they went faster than i had planned. still barely with in tolerance but with in a year they were worn out. with autoX and spirited back road driving.

 

I race my MINI in NASA GTS2. While my times are faster then the SMs, a MINI will NOT be faster then a Miata with equivalent power to weight. Aero, suspension geometry, and FWD will not allow it.

If you want to beat these Miatas, buy a Miata then add an SC to max it for the class and kick their butts.

 

Only other thought to toss out there would be to price replacement engine/transmission should you lose one. Is there a sizable difference between the cars you are considering? Don't know. Personal preference, I can't stand working on front wheel drive cars. I love driving my wifes MINI, but CAN'T STAND working on it. That reason alone would keep me from campaigning a FWD car. Good luck, and have FUN!

 

Great insight Alan. Thanks. And I agree, the only reason my club's Miatas are beatable is because most of them are sitting at 18+ power to weight ratios. If any of them chose to reduce a bit more weight or up their power to the class limit, there'd be no beating them. But I suspect they don't do this because they run in other races like NASA or Spec Miata.

 

Point well taken. I run Hawk DTC-70s on my BMW, which are brilliant, but are obviously harder on the rotors. Thankfully, the BMW's rotors are covered under the free maintenance period so if the pads chew them up, I get new ones for free until I hit 40,000 miles.

Swapping rotors/pads and tires is a known cost of the hobby. :(

 

Great point Jeff. To keep costs manageable, I'd plan on doing all the work myself (aside from the roll cage of course). I haven't had to do anything on my wife's R56, because it is practically new and covered by warranty, but it is clear that working on the engine would be a chore.

I suspect though that if I went this route, the big mods would be in the suspension and brakes, and a simple ECU tune could probably deliver the power boost, assuming the stock cooling can handle another 15-20 HP.

The other downside to this is resale. Track ready Miatas are easy to sell. If I managed to build a Mini that could win GT-5, I'd probably move on to GT-4 and a new project car after a season or two. I'm not sure how much demand there'd be for an MCS with a cage...

 

Is the only rules really a tire restriction and a power to weight ratio?

The miatas would eat a mini alive with only those class restrictions. It isn't just putting power down through the front wheels. It's having 700lbs on each front wheel where as the miata is much more balanced and has superior suspension design/geometry. Not to mention the amount of racing support for miatas that make it easy to get the car up to speed.

Why aren't you just buying a SSM or ITA miata?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using NAMotoring

 

I you want to be competitive with those Miatas you'll want to look for a late 05 or 06 with a factory equipped LSD. Good luck in your search.

 

Doubt the factory LSD is going to cut it. Skip it and go straight to a OS Giken or ATS. I would love to see another sweet track mini get built but if the goal is to win then you have to start with the car that is going to be the most competitive

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using NAMotoring

 

Those are really the only rules (specific to the car, anyway). It's just a private social track club that has a race group, so it doesn't carry all the usual burden of pages and pages of restrictions like public racing series do.

I haven't ruled out going with a Miata (hell, I haven't even decided to jump to the club's R group), but it seems much more interesting to try to find something else, if it can be competitive, which is why I'm here talking about maybe building an awesome, Miata-eating Mini!

 

This could be your choice too, might save you a lot of time!
http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/to...Tuning-Kit.htm

 

Thanks Andy. It sounds like the 05-06 cars were the most sorted out from the factory then?

 

Here's a few points for the MINI...

-The '05 and '06 are probably the most reliable. These also have upgraded engine and SC based on the JCW.
-Go with 15" wheels with about a 35mm offset and 7.5" width. With these you can put 225-45 tires on and improve the gearing, lower the car, improve the roll center and lower the rotating weight by a lot. And the added bonus is the tires are a lot cheaper than 16s or 17s.
-For brakes, at least upgrade to the Gen 2 S brakes (these are the JCW brakes for Gen 1s). But be prepared for the piston side pad to wear out twice as fast as the outer pad. Yes, with the right aftermarket wheels you can put 15" wheels over these. The best pads are Carbotech XP10s or XP12s. The Hawks are a distant second to these.
-But, better yet, if you are allowed, put on a set of Wilwoods with the 11.75" rotor (See TCE Performance products) with the Wilwood Poly "H" race pads or Carbotechs. Wilwood brake fluid works really well too. This BBK will also fit 15" wheels.
-Put in a set of camber plates set to -2.5 deg. This will work OK on the street.
-Change the rear sway bar for a 19mm one. People will say - screw the 19mm bar and go straight to the 22 or 25 mm bar and really get some rotation. Ya, you will get that, but it will be less forgiving and they are easy enough to change out later if you find you can handle a larger bar and a bit of oversteer that it will bring.
-The KONIs and Swift springs are good, but another option is BC coilovers which give height adjustment whereas the KONIs are fixed.
-LSD is a must. The factory LSD is usable.
- adjustable link for camber in the rear and for both sway bars.

I have matched Miatas with my MINI in HPDEs (I know, not quite the same) and have come across some are faster (not counting SC Miatas, which can be really fast) than me. My signature has my mods (not much), so I would see your goal as being at least competitive. If you are a good driver (take some lessons if not - around here the HPDEs are a great place to learn) you should do well.

BTY - What I described above is the build of the 2 MINIs friends of mine have and their cars are quicker than mine (a lot quicker) and both run the factor LSD on the track and both ran the cars on the street.

Most of all have fun...

 

If you're considering R56 MINIs as well, they're faster. For MotorTrend Randy Probst took a (presumably) stock 08 R56 around Laguna in 1:52. I can't quite get there, my best time in the 08 was 1:54, and I had better tires (RE-11, street tires). I also ran 2:05.6 at Sonoma (but about 1s of that is illusory). I'd go for an 08 or 09 MCS which had the factory LSD option (as mine did). At those speeds I was having difficulties with the stock brakes, something similar to the JCW Brembos might work, now we have the JCW, we've had no problem with brakes except ridiculous pad wear at Laguna.

You should be able to knock a couple of seconds off that without too much difficulty. What's the limit on tires?

Edit: 1:52 see: http://www.motortrend.com/features/p..._cooper_s.html

 

I think it would be a challenge to compete the MCS against the Miatas. But I hope you try and kick their

The stock brakes on the R53's would definitely need to be upgraded. I run carbotech pads and I used to run OEM rotors and they didn't hold up very long. So now I run cheap Napa rotors that I throw away after an event or two. Pushing hard for very long results in significant break fade. So I think I would plan on upgrading the brakes. If you happen to get a car with the JCW brakes you may fair better but I don't think I would spend the money to upgrade to JCW brakes for a track car. Go directly to a track oriented kit (also the JCW brakes limit your wheel selection just like other kits so whats the point). You can get these cars to stick pretty well but I would definitely try to get a car with factory LSD. LSD is going to be a necessity IMO and its just too expensive to add that afterwards given the other things you need to do in your budget.

I also think that the H&R sport springs on the factory struts with a rear sway and adjustable control arms is pretty good on the track and at $250 the H&R springs are an affordable step before coil overs and front camber plates.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

also word to the wise the R56 DOES NOT have a LSD.... its a E-LSD very very different.

 

I think the earlier ones you could option with an actual mechanical LSD. Although that doesn't really matter because a factory diff just isn't going to cut it for hard track use. You need a clutch-type diff. If you're generating any decent amount of grip (which you better be if you want to finish on top) then you're going to be unweighting the inside front tire enough to spin it in certain corners. Also, bumping off curbs and stuff is going to cause a factory/torsen-style diff to turn into an open diff when the wheel is in the air killing your exit speed.

OP: It sounds like nobody is really building anything to the class limits. So you could probably beat up on some SM miatas pretty easily without going too crazy in car modifications. However, that fun is only going to last until someone actually builds a car for the class.

 

Great insights all.

@Eddie, thanks for the list of recommended mods. I think we are on about the same page. Nitto makes NT-01s in 225/45/15s so a square setup on 15x7.5s would be perfect. It's good to know a BBK would still fit, as that would have been the only reason to go to a 16, and Nitto doesn't make NT-01s in a 16 that would fit. (For those wondering, the NT-01s are far and away the most popular non-slick tire in our club right now, so that's what I'd be leaning towards trying first).

As far as LSDs are concerned, I look at it this way: Aftermarket>Factory>No LSD. Given the budget constraints, if I could find a starter car with a factory one already optioned, that seems like the best value proposition. My BMW has an E-Diff so I'm quite familiar its limitations, and would rather have an open diff to be honest.

It's good to hear folks not ******* too much on the suspension. The 135i forums are full of folks bagging on the OEM dampers, even the M-Sport ones. Personally, I think they've been fine. If just springs and camber plates would get the job done, that's a major kudos to the OEM dampers and other components. The 135i needs all sorts of M3 bits before you even think about coilovers.

Overall, your thoughts are encouraging, and you're absolutely right, the only way any of this is possible is because the other cars are leaving performance on the table. It's all over the second a Miata tunes his engine to the class limit. I don't see anyone doing that though until someone comes in and beats them because of it.

@Btwyx, your vids were actually part of my research. And as far as driving skill goes, all I can say is I'm 5 seconds slower than Randy Probst was in the 135i around Laguna, and I too had better tires and brakes, but I'm faster than most of the folks on the 1-Series forum with more highly modified cars, and a fair number of cars that should be faster in our club. So I guess it's Randy(Pro)>>>>Me>Average Joe. Driver mod is always the most important and would be the first thing I looked at if the Mini was fully built and I was still getting blitzed by the Miatas.