Drivetrain It's all fun till someone loses a piston
#101
06-11-2011, 03:47 PM
On the Dyno when my 09 JCW was untuned it spiked at 24psi. Most of the time driving I would see 13-18 psi. Sometimes more but only briefly.
I've been one the people to push the JCW as far as it would go. I've been running a tune, billet turbo, FMIC, and so on that peaks at about 28psi safely. By "safely" I mean engine knock, A/F, etc all been in check. This past Thursday I lost cyl 3. I expect a lot of I told you so's. These pistons just cant handle the combustion pressures even if engine knock isn't present.
So the next step for me is to pull the engine and rebuild. I have no regrets because I expected this to happen. I see this as the opportunity to rebuild and start making some serious HP. My next step is 300whp. Yes I will take lots of pictures of the aftermath and the mods as I go along and post results for those who are interested.
Ray
I've been one the people to push the JCW as far as it would go. I've been running a tune, billet turbo, FMIC, and so on that peaks at about 28psi safely. By "safely" I mean engine knock, A/F, etc all been in check. This past Thursday I lost cyl 3. I expect a lot of I told you so's. These pistons just cant handle the combustion pressures even if engine knock isn't present.
So the next step for me is to pull the engine and rebuild. I have no regrets because I expected this to happen. I see this as the opportunity to rebuild and start making some serious HP. My next step is 300whp. Yes I will take lots of pictures of the aftermath and the mods as I go along and post results for those who are interested.
Ray
When it did let loose, you’re doing what you expected to do... rebuild. I think the “I told you so’s” would only go to those that push the crap out of their motors and never get pissed when something lets loose.
Please keep us informed, I removed my RMW tune and reinstalled the Alta tune... the RMW tune may pull a little harder but I’m not in the mood to have to rebuild anything just yet. I’m hoping Alta’s tune is safer.
Send me a PM when you start the rebuild if you don’t mind, I’d like to subscribe to that thread...
Thanks, good luck,
Mark
#102
06-11-2011, 03:57 PM
On the Dyno when my 09 JCW was untuned it spiked at 24psi. Most of the time driving I would see 13-18 psi. Sometimes more but only briefly.
I've been one the people to push the JCW as far as it would go. I've been running a tune, billet turbo, FMIC, and so on that peaks at about 28psi safely. By "safely" I mean engine knock, A/F, etc all been in check. This past Thursday I lost cyl 3. I expect a lot of I told you so's. These pistons just cant handle the combustion pressures even if engine knock isn't present.
So the next step for me is to pull the engine and rebuild. I have no regrets because I expected this to happen. I see this as the opportunity to rebuild and start making some serious HP. My next step is 300whp. Yes I will take lots of pictures of the aftermath and the mods as I go along and post results for those who are interested.
Ray
I've been one the people to push the JCW as far as it would go. I've been running a tune, billet turbo, FMIC, and so on that peaks at about 28psi safely. By "safely" I mean engine knock, A/F, etc all been in check. This past Thursday I lost cyl 3. I expect a lot of I told you so's. These pistons just cant handle the combustion pressures even if engine knock isn't present.
So the next step for me is to pull the engine and rebuild. I have no regrets because I expected this to happen. I see this as the opportunity to rebuild and start making some serious HP. My next step is 300whp. Yes I will take lots of pictures of the aftermath and the mods as I go along and post results for those who are interested.
Ray
You say that your stock JCW would spike at 24psi and your tuned JCW ran at 28psi safely but how high were the skikes on the tuned version?
#103
06-11-2011, 04:23 PM
After the rebuild I'm gonna run this set up for a week then upgrading the a GT28rs. Which I have sitting at the shop now.
#105
06-11-2011, 04:45 PM
#106
06-11-2011, 04:48 PM
Ray,
When you tuned your JCW with the modified turbo and higher boost levels did you get advise or think about adding water/meth injection system?
May be this should go into another thread but I can not remember anyone with a water/meth system installed reporting piston failures.
It seems like there are very few that have reported using water/meth systems but those who do are for the most part also tuning and if they are having the same issues I have not seen it reported.
Just a stab in the dark but maybe a water/meth system would help reduce the piston failure issues through improved octane and reduced heat or maybe not.
When you tuned your JCW with the modified turbo and higher boost levels did you get advise or think about adding water/meth injection system?
May be this should go into another thread but I can not remember anyone with a water/meth system installed reporting piston failures.
It seems like there are very few that have reported using water/meth systems but those who do are for the most part also tuning and if they are having the same issues I have not seen it reported.
Just a stab in the dark but maybe a water/meth system would help reduce the piston failure issues through improved octane and reduced heat or maybe not.
Last edited by Octane; 06-11-2011 at 05:26 PM.
#107
06-11-2011, 05:59 PM
I think overall temp contributes hugely. Keeping my car at 165-180 degrees plus the M7 oil cooler I think Ive avoided a lot of possible "failure" moments. Maybe that might help some people. I have never been comfortable with how hot these cars run (yes i know its computer controlled). Hot day, so-so tank of gas, 227deg operating temp plus boost spike equals unhappy motor...
#108
06-11-2011, 07:31 PM
I think overall temp contributes hugely. Keeping my car at 165-180 degrees plus the M7 oil cooler I think Ive avoided a lot of possible "failure" moments. Maybe that might help some people. I have never been comfortable with how hot these cars run (yes i know its computer controlled). Hot day, so-so tank of gas, 227deg operating temp plus boost spike equals unhappy motor...
#109
06-11-2011, 07:37 PM
#110
06-12-2011, 08:50 PM
Hi,
All of this talk about safety, piston failure etc made me think about the BMW motorsport built engines.
BMW builds a purpose built motorsport version of the 1.6l engine. This engine uses a Garret turbo and runs 2.5bar of boost (36psi). The engine is dry sumped, but otherwise the specs (including output) are secret.
This engine is used in the Mini World Rally Championship in both the WRC and S2000 spec cars. The engine is also used in the BMW 320TC in the World Touring Car championship.
Obviously these engines are very different beasts, but they are built from the same starting point. The engine and turbo's need to be rebuilt every 1500km (1000 miles).
However, the fact that they can be engineered to withstand 36psi shows that durable components are out there somewhere. Presumably these pistons and rods are made of "unobtainium" and are for BMW motorsport only. They probably cost as much as our whole cars do. However, it would be interesting to know details about them.
If anyone has a spare $500k, you can buy one of the cars
http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-conte...es-package.pdf
Also, with regards to safety in these tuned engines I'm surprised nobody has discussed octane booster. You should be using the highest octane available eg 93 (or 98RON). However, if you boost the octane a couple of points higher, and leave the tune unchanged (ie you don't tune more aggressively for the raised octane) this introduces a margin of safety.
Higher octane (and better quality fuel) dramatically reduces the risk of detonation, and creates a slower more controlled burn.
If people are worried about damage, then it is well worth using octane boosters as a protective thing, especially under high stress conditions eg on the track etc.
Problem is most of the commercial ones are not much good. There are a couple of good ones though. Toluene (methylbenzene) is available and effective.
Robbo
All of this talk about safety, piston failure etc made me think about the BMW motorsport built engines.
BMW builds a purpose built motorsport version of the 1.6l engine. This engine uses a Garret turbo and runs 2.5bar of boost (36psi). The engine is dry sumped, but otherwise the specs (including output) are secret.
This engine is used in the Mini World Rally Championship in both the WRC and S2000 spec cars. The engine is also used in the BMW 320TC in the World Touring Car championship.
Obviously these engines are very different beasts, but they are built from the same starting point. The engine and turbo's need to be rebuilt every 1500km (1000 miles).
However, the fact that they can be engineered to withstand 36psi shows that durable components are out there somewhere. Presumably these pistons and rods are made of "unobtainium" and are for BMW motorsport only. They probably cost as much as our whole cars do. However, it would be interesting to know details about them.
If anyone has a spare $500k, you can buy one of the cars
http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-conte...es-package.pdf
Also, with regards to safety in these tuned engines I'm surprised nobody has discussed octane booster. You should be using the highest octane available eg 93 (or 98RON). However, if you boost the octane a couple of points higher, and leave the tune unchanged (ie you don't tune more aggressively for the raised octane) this introduces a margin of safety.
Higher octane (and better quality fuel) dramatically reduces the risk of detonation, and creates a slower more controlled burn.
If people are worried about damage, then it is well worth using octane boosters as a protective thing, especially under high stress conditions eg on the track etc.
Problem is most of the commercial ones are not much good. There are a couple of good ones though. Toluene (methylbenzene) is available and effective.
Robbo
#111
06-13-2011, 05:23 AM
Ray,
When you tuned your JCW with the modified turbo and higher boost levels did you get advise or give thought to adding water/meth injection system?
May be this should go into another thread but I can not remember anyone with a water/meth system installed reporting piston failures.
It seems like there are very few that have reported using water/meth systems but those who do are for the most part also tuning and if they are having the same issues I have not seen it reported.
Just a stab in the dark but maybe a water/meth system would help reduce the piston failure issues through improved octane and reduced heat or maybe not.
When you tuned your JCW with the modified turbo and higher boost levels did you get advise or give thought to adding water/meth injection system?
May be this should go into another thread but I can not remember anyone with a water/meth system installed reporting piston failures.
It seems like there are very few that have reported using water/meth systems but those who do are for the most part also tuning and if they are having the same issues I have not seen it reported.
Just a stab in the dark but maybe a water/meth system would help reduce the piston failure issues through improved octane and reduced heat or maybe not.
Knock is an issue but I think part of my problem is the combustion pressures at this level. Yes the think was very fast. I knew it was a matter of time. After I install the 28rs I considering Meth/water injection to get me to 300whp. Get great thing with the larger turbo is I should be able to get this HP number with 20 psi +/-. According to the garrett iPhone app just under 20psi.
#112
06-13-2011, 05:44 AM
Hi,
All of this talk about safety, piston failure etc made me think about the BMW motorsport built engines.
BMW builds a purpose built motorsport version of the 1.6l engine. This engine uses a Garret turbo and runs 2.5bar of boost (36psi). The engine is dry sumped, but otherwise the specs (including output) are secret.
This engine is used in the Mini World Rally Championship in both the WRC and S2000 spec cars. The engine is also used in the BMW 320TC in the World Touring Car championship.
Obviously these engines are very different beasts, but they are built from the same starting point. The engine and turbo's need to be rebuilt every 1500km (1000 miles).
However, the fact that they can be engineered to withstand 36psi shows that durable components are out there somewhere. Presumably these pistons and rods are made of "unobtainium" and are for BMW motorsport only. They probably cost as much as our whole cars do. However, it would be interesting to know details about them.
If anyone has a spare $500k, you can buy one of the cars
http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-conte...es-package.pdf
Also, with regards to safety in these tuned engines I'm surprised nobody has discussed octane booster. You should be using the highest octane available eg 93 (or 98RON). However, if you boost the octane a couple of points higher, and leave the tune unchanged (ie you don't tune more aggressively for the raised octane) this introduces a margin of safety.
Higher octane (and better quality fuel) dramatically reduces the risk of detonation, and creates a slower more controlled burn.
If people are worried about damage, then it is well worth using octane boosters as a protective thing, especially under high stress conditions eg on the track etc.
Problem is most of the commercial ones are not much good. There are a couple of good ones though. Toluene (methylbenzene) is available and effective.
Robbo
All of this talk about safety, piston failure etc made me think about the BMW motorsport built engines.
BMW builds a purpose built motorsport version of the 1.6l engine. This engine uses a Garret turbo and runs 2.5bar of boost (36psi). The engine is dry sumped, but otherwise the specs (including output) are secret.
This engine is used in the Mini World Rally Championship in both the WRC and S2000 spec cars. The engine is also used in the BMW 320TC in the World Touring Car championship.
Obviously these engines are very different beasts, but they are built from the same starting point. The engine and turbo's need to be rebuilt every 1500km (1000 miles).
However, the fact that they can be engineered to withstand 36psi shows that durable components are out there somewhere. Presumably these pistons and rods are made of "unobtainium" and are for BMW motorsport only. They probably cost as much as our whole cars do. However, it would be interesting to know details about them.
If anyone has a spare $500k, you can buy one of the cars
http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-conte...es-package.pdf
Also, with regards to safety in these tuned engines I'm surprised nobody has discussed octane booster. You should be using the highest octane available eg 93 (or 98RON). However, if you boost the octane a couple of points higher, and leave the tune unchanged (ie you don't tune more aggressively for the raised octane) this introduces a margin of safety.
Higher octane (and better quality fuel) dramatically reduces the risk of detonation, and creates a slower more controlled burn.
If people are worried about damage, then it is well worth using octane boosters as a protective thing, especially under high stress conditions eg on the track etc.
Problem is most of the commercial ones are not much good. There are a couple of good ones though. Toluene (methylbenzene) is available and effective.
Robbo
Output for the 320TC is: 315hp (319ps)
#113
06-17-2011, 09:31 AM
Start this out with MCS's are what we are talking about here.
CBS, WOW i am really surprised at that comment. Its not like we just said "Hey everyone just try this out and see what happens". We were tuning on these for a long long time before you all knew about it. Besides our 4 shop cars over that period of time that we tuned on, we did do a few customer cars to help with proving tuning. We have numerous customers that do track days and autocross events on maps we don't supply to normal customers and don't have issues. What we send to customers we feel is very safe. There are enough smart customers out there(you being one of them) that know what knock is and i have NEVER had a call from a customer saying that their map is knocking. Of the hundreds of customer logs i have looked through, i have NEVER seen knock.
For sure we have heard of failures, but we have also heard of failures on stock cars or cars with bolt ons and no tunes. Even a good customer of ours was driving down freeway at cruise speeds and had a piston ring fail. Its 100% expected to have a few failures here and there, but there is always a huge amount of variables to why they fail. Wrong map, wrong fuel, bad gas, fuel pump failure or loss of pressure, over revved, carbon build up, massive crank case blow by, bad injector. All those things are 100% real issues i have heard and seen, and even heard and seen at the dealer level.
CBS, WOW i am really surprised at that comment. Its not like we just said "Hey everyone just try this out and see what happens". We were tuning on these for a long long time before you all knew about it. Besides our 4 shop cars over that period of time that we tuned on, we did do a few customer cars to help with proving tuning. We have numerous customers that do track days and autocross events on maps we don't supply to normal customers and don't have issues. What we send to customers we feel is very safe. There are enough smart customers out there(you being one of them) that know what knock is and i have NEVER had a call from a customer saying that their map is knocking. Of the hundreds of customer logs i have looked through, i have NEVER seen knock.
For sure we have heard of failures, but we have also heard of failures on stock cars or cars with bolt ons and no tunes. Even a good customer of ours was driving down freeway at cruise speeds and had a piston ring fail. Its 100% expected to have a few failures here and there, but there is always a huge amount of variables to why they fail. Wrong map, wrong fuel, bad gas, fuel pump failure or loss of pressure, over revved, carbon build up, massive crank case blow by, bad injector. All those things are 100% real issues i have heard and seen, and even heard and seen at the dealer level.
OK I will admit that comment was perhaps a bit below the belt and was probably triggered by a past negative experience with Alta. I do appreciate the response showing that your tunes were tested extensively behind the scenes before release. I'm not marketing whiz-man, but this is something I would publish more and communicate loudly. Some type of page like a “Power you can trust… a moment with Jeff Perrin,” might be an idea.
#114
06-17-2011, 10:11 AM
one robin doth not spring announce...
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...529-miles.html
therefore statistically meaningless
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...529-miles.html
therefore statistically meaningless
#115
06-17-2011, 10:46 AM
From "Modern Mini" magazine they explained that the production version JCW engine spec was developed for the MINI Challenge racecars and featured special pistons, strengthened lower-compression cylinder head and head gasket with beefed-up intake valves and seats. Exhaust was revised to reduce back pressure at the point of exhaust gas recirculation and the manifold was redesigned too.
With all this increase in boost can bigger injectors and modified fuel pump address the issues of high cylinder temps ?
With all this increase in boost can bigger injectors and modified fuel pump address the issues of high cylinder temps ?
#116
06-17-2011, 11:14 AM
From "Modern Mini" magazine they explained that the production version JCW engine spec was developed for the MINI Challenge racecars and featured special pistons, strengthened lower-compression cylinder head and head gasket with beefed-up intake valves and seats. Exhaust was revised to reduce back pressure at the point of exhaust gas recirculation and the manifold was redesigned too.
#117
06-17-2011, 12:05 PM
5th Gear
i drive my mini hard and I have modified it a bunch. should i just plan on ******** a piston soon?
and if I do currently my aftermarket options are pretty limited?
I assuming custom pistons are all i have to choose from?
and if I do currently my aftermarket options are pretty limited?
I assuming custom pistons are all i have to choose from?
Last edited by wandrur; 06-17-2011 at 12:15 PM. Reason: profanity removed
#118
06-17-2011, 01:25 PM
6th Gear
Not anymore
#119
06-17-2011, 01:27 PM
An engine build right now is only limited to budget and time. The parts for a quote/ un-quote bullet proof engine are some what available now.
#120
06-17-2011, 01:53 PM
#121
06-17-2011, 03:01 PM
It would be really tough to determine if it was a casting flaw, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.
#122
06-17-2011, 03:11 PM
#123
06-18-2011, 03:01 AM
Hi,
Just to keep things in perspective, BMW has just released the details of their flagship car, the new M5. Beautiful car, awesome in every respect.
You would think that this is the pinnacle of BMW engineering? However, the R56 JCW makes more hp and nm per litre than the new M5?!?!
That tells you something. The JCW (stock) is pretty maxed out. I think it is the highest output per litre in horsepower of any BMW engine? I've checked it against most of the obvious targets. Obviously the diesels punch out more torque.
Cheers
Robbo
Just to keep things in perspective, BMW has just released the details of their flagship car, the new M5. Beautiful car, awesome in every respect.
You would think that this is the pinnacle of BMW engineering? However, the R56 JCW makes more hp and nm per litre than the new M5?!?!
That tells you something. The JCW (stock) is pretty maxed out. I think it is the highest output per litre in horsepower of any BMW engine? I've checked it against most of the obvious targets. Obviously the diesels punch out more torque.
Cheers
Robbo
#124
06-18-2011, 05:50 AM
No offense, I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion but I assure you it’s wrong. My JCW is putting out waaaay more HP/TQ than a stock JCW. I assure you the stock JCW is not max’d out.
I’ve got 35K miles on it now and many miles at the track.
Mark
#125
06-18-2011, 01:53 PM
No, I didn't really mean it that way. I was just thinking out loud and musing on the fact that the JCW has the highest specific power of any BMW car, including the hero "M" cars.
Of course you can tune it for more power (and I have). BMW could easily release it with higher power, but they choose not to. They have to find a balance, and it is at the maximum they believe it is safe to release, without the risk of too many component failures that would need replacing under warranty, and potentially costing $$ and damaging the companies reputation.
There are many other cars with similar specific hp and torque figures that are very highly tuned in the aftermarket, and are relatively bullet proof. The suburu WRX and lancer Evo come to mind.
Robbo