Hmmmm, I've heard this some place before ...

Bob, getting into tire presure tuning for the street is not really worth it. It has soooo many variables, including the type of tire.

 

Micheal, as always, thanks for the info.

Ironically, I just got an email from H-Sport this morning:

Were you talking with Aaron our product engineer?

Thank you for your e-mail. To better assist you, please respond to the original e-mail.

Drew
Hotchkis Performance LLC.
Sr. Tech/Sales
Phone: 562.907.7757
Fax: 562.907.7765
Toll Free: 800.4NO.ROLL
Web site(s)
www.hotchkis.net (Domestic)
www.hotchkistuning.com (Tuner)
www.h-sport.com (Euro)
=================

I guess I sent an email some time ago, and just forgot that I had done so. I replied, and I hope soon to get the scoop on what Hypercoil spring to consider... and I will of course share what I find-out. Heck, I'll even try to get Aaron to join NAM...

 

Drew at H-Sport was kind enough to forward our email communication to Aaron, and I just got this!
==========

Hi Tony,

The Camber kit comes in 3 flavors:
30830 For use with Large (stock/H-Sport/PSS9) Diameter Coils
30832 For use with Ø2.25" Linear Coils
30835 For use with Ø2.50" Linear Coils

With Large Diameter Coils:
Camber Range: 0° to -2°

With 2.25"/2.50" Diameter Linear Coils:
Camber Range: 0° to -3.6°

At the Monterey show, my MINI had Hypercoil Ø2.50 coil rated at 350 lbs/in with 7" free length. I was at full lowered on the perches and I thought it was still too high. So, I swapped out the front for an Eibach Ø2.50 coil rated at 450 lbs/in with 6" free length.

I also swapped out the rear coil for an Eibach Ø2.50 coil rated at 500 lbs/in with 6" free length. The rear lower perch needed to be turned down to accept the Ø2.50 diameter coil. I also had to modify one our Ø2.50 upper spring perches (p/n 23340210) to fit the shaft adapter. It's a bit of a hassle, but it's not rocket science.

Eibach Linear Coils:
600.250.450
600.250.500

The front spring is loose at full droop, however during my daily driving and autocrossing I have yet had a problem with this.

Let me know if there is anything else I can help out with!

Aaron Ogawa
Product Engineer
aogawa@hotchkis.net


12035 Burke St. Suite 13
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
(562) 907 - 7757 ext.233
(562) 907 - 7765 fax
www.hotchkis.net
www.hothckistuning.com
www.h-sport.com
============

I'm just heading-out of the office, and haven't even really had a chance to really it carefully. Just wanted to share... Any comments?

 

What struts were these coils mounted on and how do the posted free lengths and rates compare to stock?

 

Hi obe. I replied to Aaron, and I also supplied him with this thread to him, and welcomed him to join our Community. I hope he does so. Either way, I'll share as I learn more...

 

Thanks Tony.
I'm getting close to making a jump into modding the suspension.
One hold up though is the bright shiny M62 brass ring.

Too much cool stuff, too little money.

 

It's all your fault.

I'll be putting them on this weekend.


Rambling commentary to follow.

 

Note that if you don't get the complete change you're looking for that the front endlinks would be a good addition in the future... Yeah, I know - even more $...

 

Baby steps

Questions

Daily driver and occasional auto-x car. Do I set it up for just me or set it up based on a car with both my wife and myself in it?
Next... do I use the full weight of both of us or just the differential in our weights?

 

What’s up Tony and everyone! This is Aaron from Hotchkis.

At the Monterey Historics show I met TonyB and we discussed spring options for the PSS9. I mentioned to him that I had a Hypercoil linear spring in the front to achieve more negative camber. I few weeks later I changed the front and rear coils for Eibach linear springs. In a recent email by TonyB, I was asked what was the reason for changing the Hypercoil Ø2.50"x7"/350# to a shorter Eibach Ø 2.50"x6"/450#. There were 2 reasons for doing this. One, I wanted to increase the spring rate from 350 lb/in to something higher and two, I wanted to lower the car more. With the hypercoil spring, the car was too high on the lowest setting on the perch. By going with a shorter spring, I was able to lower it just enough. Hypercoil doesn't show any linear coil shorter than 7" with a Ø 2.5" ID in their catalog. I'm sure Hypercoil could have made shorter coils, but Eibach has them off the shelf.

Here's my setup:
PSS9 Adjustable Coilovers
- Front Coil: Eibach Ø 2.5" ID x 6" Free-length @ 450 lbs/in
- Rear Coil: Eibach Ø 2.5" ID x 6" Free-length @ 500 lbs/in

Camber:
- Front: -3°
- Rear: -2°

Toe:
- Front: 0"
- Rear: 0"

Stabilizer Bars
- Front: 30% Stiffer than Stock
- Rear: 500% Stiffer than Stock

Requirements for Fitting Ø 2.5" ID Coils on PSS9's:
Front:
The front is easy. The coil will work with the lower perch no problem. You can not use the stock top perch so, you will need an additional Ø 2.5" top perch (e.g. Hotchkis p/n 23340210). I also suggest getting some thrust bearings for the lower perch (QA1 p/n 7888-109 buy @ Summit Racing). This will let the coil rotate easier during steering movement.

Rear:
The Bilstein rear coil is not a standard size coil. It has a slightly larger ID (Ø 2.8"). Hence the lower perch will need to be turned down to accommodate the Ø 2.5" ID. The Bilstein top perch is also designed to fit the weirdo Ø 2.8" ID, so it can not be used. I was able to modify the same Hotchkis top perch (23340210) by enlarging the shaft hole to accept the Bilstein shaft adapter. It will make sense once you have the coilover in your hands.

Spring Info:
PSS9 Front Coil: 8 ¼” Free Length
Stock Front Coil: 9” Free Length
Eibach Front Linear Coil: 6” Free Length

The ride is rough, but I'm immune to such things. This sort of setup requires good tires. Even for daily driving, the suspension demands more traction from the tires, so be wary. I daily drive this setup with 215/45/17 Kumho MX tires. I race SCCA & BMW autocross with 225/45/17 Yokohama Advan Neovas.

Please Note:
This is just a documentation of how I was able to install linear coils on PSS9 Coilovers. Please be responsible when customizing your own suspension.

 

Hi Aaron! Thanks for chiming-in here. I didn't realize that you were already a NAM member...

Thanks for providing the details/specs. I'm sure there will be a few questions, and I guess I have a couple...

From 9" to 8.25 and then 6 inches, and the perches at their lowest settings... leaves me wondering if you are riding the bump stops (internal on the PSS9's), or at least hitting them too easily/often. Is this the case? There are a couple threads on this topic here that are fairly interesting...

I've learned that the matching of spring rates with valving is somewhat important. With your current set-up, you've increased your rates quite a bit over the coils provided by Bilstein. I'm guessing that you didn't have a re-valve job done. Do you have any concerns about this combo over time? Really curious to hear if you like this set-up, and if not, what you might try next...

If you have any photos of your car, please share! Thanks again Aaron.

 

Hey Tony,

Actually, you would be quite amazed how much the Stock & Bilstein Coils compress under load. The load height of the Eibach coil is actually a lot taller than the other 2. This is why I have to have the lower perch all the way down. The strut does not bottom out frequently. Especially with the higher spring rate. Although the perch is all the way down (due to a taller coil), the strut height is well within the recommended range. In fact, the spring prevents you from lowering the car too much.

The PSS9 valving has a large range of damping adjustment. I have no problem matching the damping with the higher spring rates.

The ride quality is pretty harsh. However, the car handles unbelievably well. With the adjustment of damping and sway bar stiffness, it’s possible to get oversteer or understeer at will. Although, 450F/500R is stiffer than most MINI setups, you must remember that the MINI isn’t the lightest car in the world. I’ve put stiffer springs in lighter cars before, so it’s really not that extreme. My initial testing with this setup came up with good results.

Good luck and let me know if I can help in any way.
-Aaron

 

IMHO? Set it up for you in the car only... The instructions mention two ways of doing it - one with your ballast in the driver's seat and the other at "curb weight", meaning no extra weight in the car... The only reason to adjust it to curb weight would be if it were a multiple driver car for autocrossing. Otherwise, I think you'll be best served overall by setting it up with just your weight in the car...

 

Agreed on the spring rates... One of my buds is running 450f/525r on his S and it's awesome at the auto-x or on the track. Of course, daily driving it would be a beating...

 

Thanks

Will do.

General question but mainly for Aaron.
Is there a single source for getting the PSS9s set up with the 2.5" springs, regardless of rate, for those of us that don't have anyone that can do these mods or are just plain too lazy?
Same question for FSDs if this is even possible.

All I want is a bit more camber than the -1.5 I have.

TIA

 

Power grid endlinks...I went to LRP with Onasled Memorial day weekend to meet the engineer who designed these...heavy, but very smooth with double the range of heim joints.

 

Good eye.
Very nice build quality. I like that they marked the left hand thread end. Nice touch.

 

A lot of teams are now using these, with success at the track. The Cobalt team began development with these and now a few others - Acura...cannot remember who else is on-board.

Whats funny, according to Chip - the engineer, is the heim joints posses 22-23degrees of movement - articulation - and the powergrid units provide 53 degrees. He stated that the Mini requires 51 degrees in stock form - he is also an OEM endlinks designer/manufacturer.

 

Thanks. It's nice to know I went the right route with these.
Their diameter is greater than stock and I've had zero issues with the stock pieces so they should work well.

My Sunday event got delayed a week so I have to wait a bit before I see how they work for auto-x but I do have a traffic circle and some on ramps I travel frequently that should get me a good feel, legally

 

Aaron, thanks for the photo, and additonal info. I'm on the brink of getting those new H-Sport camber plates, and it just makes sense to do a spring swap since it would be an opportune time... I'll make sure to order those part numbers (for the perches) as well...

I hear ya on the amount of compression of the Bilstein coils. While under load, I peaked-up in there with a flash light, and it was collapsed pretty good. I'm guessing that this is by design since they are a barrel shape and progressive. The barrel design, as I understand it, is bascially so the spring won't bind. Are you getting binding now, and a bunch of noise from the spring hitting itself?

Ah, I just took a look at that the bearing thrust kit you referenced! Starting to make sense...



I follow you on the mods to the rear, but is that something that can be done in an hour or so with basic tools? Just trying to forecast the time commitment, and avoid an extended down-time...

Being that I have a lightened MCS (about 200 lbs, and more to come), I don't want to go with 450 F & 500 R like you. I was thinking along the lines of 400/450, or even 350/400. Would you recommend these in 6" lengths also (2.5" diameter)? If you have the length of the Bilstein rear coil, please share...

Ok, where's a good source for springs? Aaron, thanks for the help!

 

Why are you contemplating using stiffer springs in the rear than the front?

 

Hi Don. I'm sure others will chime-in also... First, I never tried the inverse, or the same rates all the way around. I've been under the belief that this will help MINI turn-in better, or help in the removal of understeer, like going with as heftier rear sway bar. The Bilstein PSS9's, Ledas, and other coilover systems all come with rear rates more than the front; so for me, feeling that there is good logic behind their decision, want to do the same.

Do you feel otherwise? If so, please share...

 

The Powergrid stuff is definitely strong... I've been beating the heck out of my set for awhile now.

 

I'm running the same spring rates all around and find that it works with my OEM front bar, 19mm H&R rear bar (full stiff), camber plates and alignment very, very well. Soon, I'll be running Ledas with linear 325f/325r Hypercoils.

My bud, however, has H-Sport front and rear bars, and went with the higher spring rate in the rear to help get the car to rotate like he wanted... The other benefit is also ZERO squat in the rear when you nail the gas, which keeps it hooked up even harder. His car was scary quick when I drove it...

In general, I'd think higher spring rates in the front will cause the MINI to plow like a *****...

 

There are many ways to skin a cat sorry cat lovers.

A heavier rate up front requires the use of a stronger bar/setting in the rear while retaining rear end compliance. A heavey rate up front also helps to control braking, and, greater roll forces due to the mac strut and front end weight bias.

I know this will appear funny, but I'm an experimenter; I've got my Megans adjusted 3 clicks harder up front - 10 from full hard up front and 13 from full hard in the rear. The rear spring rate is still much higher, but the rate of roll is tighter up front. So, the front end's rate of roll in essesnce allows for a little more understeer intitially - a little is relative. But, when I bend into a really tight turn quickly and get to steady state, the back end comes around nicely.

This is not s perfect setup, it is a transition set I'm playing with; the understeer is welcome to a degree and is much less than stock. the problem is hard to explain, but if in the middle of a turn that has undulations large enough to cause fairly large spring compression in the rear, the car will move from comfortable understeer to oversteer in a hurry...on smooth roads the transition is fast and fun, but those mid corner softish undulations...not welcome! I'm short on brain power today so sorry for poor example.