I'll do my best to explain this so bear with me. This is something that can be noticed on all cars also.

When going into a corner at higher speeds the body starts to roll, when it hits a certain point the steering increases because all the weight is now on the outer wheels, but now I am turning to sharp and have to steer the opposite way just a bit to keep from going over the line. As I steer the opposite way the car levels out a bit and now I am not turning sharp enough.
Another way to explain it is on certain corners at a certain speed there is a really fine balance between fully setting the suspension and just going around a corner. Its like the car needs to be driven hard through the corner to fully set the suspension or its just teedering makeing it more difficult to make a nice rounded corner. The only thing I can do is go into the corner as smooth as possible to minimize this.

BTW, The car is a stock Cooper S with Goodyear Eagle GSD3's at 35lbs pressure and not raced. Like I said above, this goes for all cars but is a little more prevelant in the Cooper.

I hope someone understands what I am trying to say and is this the reason why so many people are putting on the bigger rear sway bar?

Thanks

 

You're experiencing oversteer. if you put a heavier rear swaybar, it will only amplify oversteer.

What you need to do is slow down and drive normal (if on public roads).

 

The problem is when I am driving normal. If I get on it, it handles great.

So if oversteer is the problem what should I do?

 

 

Oh man, everyone is laughing at me. Yea I can laugh too.


Seriously help me out here.

 

bambam,

I hear you, man. It's possible I'm misunderstaninding, but I think I get it. I think what you probably need to do is just look a little further through the corner. I know that sounds like an oversimplificaton, but the car will pretty much go wherever you're lookiing.

If you're going fast enough to be losing traction: 1) kenchan's right, slow down and 2) you will have to make some adjustments.

It also sounds like you're closing in on another key. You said it yourself, "The only thing I can do is go into the corner as smooth as possible to minimize this." Turning in smoothly and looking through the corner will give you the pretty line you're looking for. Especially with the responsive, sports-car handling characteristics of a MINI, a smooth turn in is essential.

These are techniques and principles best learned at the track, where it's safe. But just for grins, try simply looking further through the same turn at the same speed to see if this does the trick.

PS. kenchan's also right about the larger rear swaybar. It will make the car turn in even more quickly.

 

Quite the contrary. This thread makes me want to go drive. Just for research purposes, ya know? Gotta help a buddy out.

 

The car isn't breaking loose or even comming close to it. Its like I am fighting the steering on some corners, mainly on roads that have 55mph speed limit and corners that "suggest" 45 mph and I'm doing around 60. Its really hard to follow the line I pick, I really have to concentrate, (and no I am not drunk ). Do you understand what I mean about setting the suspension? The car is going to roll over only so far at a given speed before it breaks loose or completely rolls over. Its the transistion that I'm talking about. Once the suspension hits that point the steering increases without turning the wheel anymore. Its a very fine line.

 

By "setting the suspension," is it safe to say you're referring to "loading" the suspension?

 

Yes.

 

The phrase I'm familiar with is that the car "takes a set". And, yes, you do use the initial phase of a turn to help the car take a set. Once it has you can begin to corner with more force. And, I think this is what you're experiencing.

My car is just like yours, and I've never really noticed the turn-in increasing when the car takes a set. But, I have noticed that it's happier if I turn in smoothly at first to load the suspension gradually and then add more steering input to take the path I want. It's a very progressive process.

As a wise man once told me: "Ask the car nicely." Do be sure your initial steering input is somewhat slow and deliberate. Then as the suspension begins to load, you can add more input to follow the intended path.

Hope this helps.

 

Are there any damaged parts? If there aren't then I'm afraid that practice is your only alternative. Minis UNDERSTEER from the factory. So the only things that can create overstear is bad allignment/suspension parts, changing road surfaces, going in to fast and lifting throttle, or jerky driver inputs. Looking through the turns will help smooth things out. Big sweepers (preferably on a track) are excellect places to work on this.

This car is pretty twitchy and responsive (althogh the GS3Gs are a bit less aggressive on turn in than others). So if you were used to a 72 Cutlass, it may just be the precision of the steering....

Matt

 

Serious note, I think you're doing a throttle lift at mid-turn and that's
what's causing the rear to loosen up. You need to turn-in a little
slower (and gentler on the steering input) and keep constant
throttle through the turn while you exponentially open it up as you exit
the turn.

bascially if your rear starts to loosen up do a zero counter and just
mash the gas. DSC will also assist in correcting your yaw.
inexperienced drivers countersteering can end up loosing control
when the rear possibly swings around the other way.

Set your tire pressure 34psi (cold) front and rear and make sure your
tires are completely broken in before attempting such high speed
manuvers. :smile:

im no roadcourse driver, but ive had my share of canyon carving
experience.

 

In racing it's not the speed going into the corner that counts, it's the speed coming out. Maybe a touch of brake just before the turn will allow you to give it some throttle in the turn putting more weight over the rear tires and increasing your exit speed.

 

Slow in, fast out. Try not to over-drive the car, it can only do so much.

I have an stock 05 S. I've noticed no trailing throttle oversteer traits. On the contrary, the car washes out - understeering slide - when jumping off the throttel in mid turn...perhaps I'm not going fast enough??? If I keep gentle pressure on the throttle thru the beginning of the turn, adding more and more throttle as I come out, the car feels very natural - as Veni Vidi Vici wrote.

If you add a larger bar, you will eliminate some of the safety net provided in the stock suspension. However, with practice, and care, you can power your way thru a turn much faster. The "oh Sh#t" factor will become a common vernacular if you aren't smooth, though.

 

I get exactly the opposite results on high-speed turns. When I lift off the throttle while turning, I'm transferring weight from rear to front, unsettling the back end and prompting oversteer. When I mash the gas, I'm transferring weight to the rear and I get plow (sometimes it's fun to get a little plow, because when the weight settles to outboard, the driving wheel whips me around the turns -- try this on ice, it's a blast).

I agree, though: the larger REAR sway bar will add oversteer. If you're looking for a suspension mod, you might want to start with springs. Beefier springs will help eliminate some of the body-roll and make your turns more predictable (at least in terms of balance). They'll also lower your center of gravity.

 

This is good advice... When I attended the BMW performance driving school, they told us to look out far ahead like what was said above. The car will follow. It takes alot of practice to do this... try it slow first and as you get used to it, go a bit faster.

 

>understeering slide - when jumping off the throttel in mid turn...perhaps I'm not going fast enough???



You're going much too slow...not that im saying you should go any faster
on the streets. :smile:

 

Nothing is broke on the car and maybe I should have the alignment checked out. I used to drive semi and am used to very sloppy steering. Its hard to get used to barely turning the wheel to make the car turn . The other thing is the grooves in the road also pull the car around a bit if I don't stay right in them through the whole corner.

 

Ding, ding, ding!!!!

Iregularities in the pavement, when combined with a bit too much/too quick initial steering input will cause the car to be sort of twitchy, and you'll have to alter your line. Roads like you describe are very challenging for spirited motoring.

Did the comments about lift-throttle ring any bells? That's definitely a consideration as well.

 

This is pretty pedestrian, but what about tire pressures?

My stock Cooper can be adjusted from a push-pig to a oversteering, snap-spinning monster with just a few PSI change in the rear tires.

 

I hate threads like this...

Personally, I have a problem when performance driving is discussed in a thread about street driving. If a thread starter doesn't know anything about vehicle dynamics (as evidenced by their creating the thread in the first place) then they I cannot, in good concience, encourage them.

I would encourage you to go autocrossing, attend an HPDE, or something like the BMW driver classes. Finding the limits of the car will allow you to understand better what it's doing at lower speeds. Experimenting on the streets only endangers others.

 

Jeffs may be kinda cranky , but he's exactly right.

High Performance Driver's Education events are the place for learning these techniques. And, while bambam's posts don't sound at all like crazy driving, several of our posts have taken on a decidedly "performance driving" slant.

So, bambam... enroll immediately in an HPDE where you can learn these techniques safely. And don't go around saying the folks on NAM don't care about you. Drive safe.

 

I dunno, it's not as if anyone said, "and here is how you do trail braking, and I suggest you go try it in a crowded urban setting."

- Roger (about 8 autocrosses and 1 track day so far this year, so I do "live" the 'take it to the track' thing)

 

You guys crack me up Don't worry Jeff, the most illegal thing I've done is 10 to 15 over the limit. You must of been a big fan of Fast and the Furious I don't claim to know much about suspensions and getting a car to handle a certain way. I guess all I really wanted to know more about is the transition of going straight then into a corner. There's a point when the car stops rolling which you guys call loading the suspension. Am I correct in saying once you hit that point more weight is transferred to the outer wheels giving you the feeling like it wants to turn even harder. The way to deal with this is to go into the corner more smooth, once the suspension is loaded you start to accelerate out of the corner.


Today I put the fronts at 40 and the rears at 36 and it seemed to drive better, maybe it was in my head. I would love to autocross but I like my car "unbeat" better. If you guys have a spare car then count me in.