Should I get H-Sport Comp or Mini Mania rear sway with the endlink?

 

What sort of track use are you intending to do?
Competition or just driving on the track or at driving events/schools?
If you choose H-sport, try the middle setting. Not enough reduced understeer, then try the stiffest setting.

The H-sport comp 25mm bar is stiff (similar to 22mm bar) but only has three settings which for most people is good enough. It's light, about 5 pounds or half of the weight of most 22mm bars. Price is competitive now since it's been out. You'd use stock end links.

The minimania Ultrik 19mm rear bar is infinitely adjustable, costs $250, probably weighs more than a stock bar/with end links. For those that do competition and want to do fine tuning it would be good. You could choose slightly different settings on each side but you'd also have to worry about making adjustments and corrections along the way. The end links look stronger than stock end links.
http://new.minimania.com/web/Item/NMS2001/InvDetail.cfm

Another choice is the Rspeed rear bar. Stiff material, good price, three hole adjustment. Set it and forget.

 

I'd go with H-Sport. I know a lot of engineering and testing went into the design of thier lightweight sway bar. It is definitely not a "copycat" part.

In my opinion, having fixed holes is a much more reliable design than a clamp style. The 3 hole option gives plenty of adjustability for most serious enthusiasts.

If your worried about preload or the ability to adjust your corner weights, then you should consider adjustable coilovers.

Good Luck!

 

The H-Sport Comp. set

It's still the best engineered, lightest, and best handling setup out there.

[edit] By set, I mean the H-Sport springs, and front and rear "comp" swaybars with stock MCS or Koni yellow shocks.

 

guys,need some advise,

Im planning to get the H-sport Sway bar but I dont know which is the best for me. I don't go for tracks,comp or Autocross. I only drive the car on road and love to take corners, do some street racing and going uphill. So my next plan is to get the H-sport Springs. That's all the mod for the suspension part.

Should I go for the Sport or the Competition Sway bar?

 

I would strongly suggest the H-Sport Comp bar.
When you say "...That's all the mod for the suspension part", you should really get a pair of lower control arms as your camber will be off too much now that your car is lowered with the H-sport springs. You can live without them, but tire wear and handling will be compromized.

 

Should I get the rear only or the complete set (f&r)?

 

it can be argued.. some people will swear by doing both.. but i only have a competition in the rear and have had no problems.. autocrossings the car just turns alot better and i can accelerate a bit earlier without fear of the dreaded understeer... guess hard to explain

i love my h-sport competition

 

Compared to stock front and rear sway bars-
If you increase thickness of the front sway bar you will increase understeer.
If you increase thickness of the rear sway bar you will reduce understeer.
The front bar has two holes for adjustment and the rear bar usually up to three holes.

Front wheel drive cars like the MINI already understeer so anything to reduce understeer will be beneficial for most drivers.

For most people that do street driving and autocross, only a rear swaybar is needed for get a relatively neutral amount of steering response.

For those on the track and for maximum adjustability front and rear swaybars can be upgraded. The front is a little tough to install compared to the rear.

 

What's the going rate for getting a rear sway bar installed??!?!?

 

I have been running the h-sport springs and sway bars for about 9 months. I have had 3 alignments and the camber all around has been very close to stock, within the margin of error given by BMW, control arms are not entirely needed. Also I have noticed that the springs in the rear have compressed an additional .33 inches. The rear is at 1.33 in. lower than stock now, fronts are still at 1". Just my 2 cents worth. :smile:

 

Some say that thick rear sway bar is more likely to increase oversteer when ever I let my foot off the throttle during corners,is that right?

 

i have experienced this

 

Jlm,

What happened? Care to share it with us?

 

It's called snap oversteer. If you go into a corner too fast and need to brake more, the shift in weight distribution towards the front will cause the rear (with a very stiff swaybar) to come around. The stock MINI's have a very high tendency to understeer so you would have to stomp on the brakes much harder in order to get it to oversteer. A thicker swaybar will allow you to keep your foot in the throttle longer as you increase your understeer limit. In auto-x, the H-sport comp on it's stiffest setting would really help you get around those tight corners. You wouldn't want to run that setting on a full size track (or street for that matter). That's why it's a COMP bar...the stiffest and possibly the middle setting are designed for the track. When you get it, you'll need to safely try it out and adust your driving style if there's a safety concern.

 

So, the best is to get the COMP bar and put at the lowest setting first and adjust my driving patern and get use to it. And later I can slowly go for the middle setting if I could handle/control the car. Am I right?

But bassically is the Comp bar suitable for road use?

 

Any of the well known rear swaybars will be fine, IMO -- and I do agree with most that the H-Sport bar is probably the "best". I personally have the Alta 22mm rear bar.

One thing to note, however -- if the track you are driving on has any long and/or high-speed corners, you probably want the bar on the *soft* setting. At the recent All MINI Track Day in Texas, folks with the bar on a stiffer setting were having oversteer situations on track. My car, with the bar on the soft setting, was significantly better. (I even find the soft setting fine for street driving as well).

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again; selecting the size of the sway bar(s) has a direct relationship to spring and damping rates. Sway bar size should not be chosen hap-hazardly. It is wrong to size a sway bar first then decide upon spring and damping rates.

Snap-oversteer or more correctly, trailing throttle oversteer, is an unwanted condition, anywhere. It is - with regard to the mini - the result of matching too large a rear bar with too soft a rear spring and or rear damping rate.

In plain english; the softer the rear spring and damper rates, the quicker a given rear bar will work. Remember, the bar works as the car leans. The faster it leans, the quicker the bar works. The idea from a practical driving perspective is to match the spring and damping rates with a bar of a given strength such that when you turn into a corner, you know with every degree of that turn, how much of the bar you want to invoke. my street set-up for my last car - 99 Si - included 400lb linear rate springs at all four corners, double adjustable Koni SST dampers and an adjustable 22mm bar. That was plenty of bar for the street and only because the rear spring and damper rates were chosen for the gross handling set-up. Fine tuning was done the sway bar, as it should always be. You, the driver, must be able to invoke the sway bar, you must not be afraid of it. For tight track work, the rear spring rates were changed to 600lbs and mated to a 25 mm rear bar.

Cornering flat doesn't always mean cornering faster. If you stay with the stock springs, I feel the 19mm is enough bar. if you opt for after market springs, find out what the rates are so you can decide how much more responsive you want the back end to be.

 

I did not mean to drop a bomb here guys and gals. But, think about the role each component plays in determining the car's handling characteristics, and then, what you want the car to do.

I don't have time this morning, but one more - of many - set-ups; for a given venue, soften the rear spring rates and increase the size of the rear bar. I would use this appraoch, perhaps, if I were racing on a track that had lots of very long sweepers with with short closing radius turns at the end of each. This track does not exist anywhere. But, the softer rear rates - to a point, and this is for the sake of this discusion, will aid high speed stabilty by building in a little understeer. As you take that short closing radius, the car leans hard asking the larger rear bar to come on line very quickly. The rate of lean, determined by the degree of radius and length of this portion of the turn, determine the rates and bar size. But do you understand what I am saying? Softer springs allow bars to work very quickly because the rate of lean is not slowed. Dampers by themselves do not change the amount of lean, only the rate. But they also play a role.

Take the same hypothetical track; keep the stock rear bar but increase stock spring rates to say 600lbs. The car will more than likely be loose as hell thru the entire long sweeper and might not have the leverage to turn thru the short closing radius turn. So, you'll probably end up with a car that is teetering on oversteer thru the highspeed section, a no no, and one that understeers thru the short closing radius, a no no. Want a fast predictable car? Build in controllable slow speed oversteer and highspeed understeer. You do this, relative to where you are driving, and you'll feel like god in your car. Yes there are a whole bunch of other variables to consider; camber, corner weighting, ride height power to weight ratio, FWD vs RWD.

I'm trying to help, not show off???

 

Ok my head hurts, so it is rocket science. i need more coffee.. LOL

I love learning new stuff here. Thx.

 

Uhm, listen, coffee always makes things better, so long as it's 93 Octane or better.

This is not rocket science and I refuse to make it such - in my posts anyway. I'm trying, thru feel and analogy, to help. I don't always posses the words or time, however...sounds like a love story.

If you can, take your car to a track. Have at your disposal, rear linear rate springs that are 100-200lbs heavier than stock front springs. also, bring along a 25mm rear bar. Place the 25mm on the with the stock rear springs and run the course. Then, install the heavier springs with the 25mm bar and run the course. Then, re-install the stock bar with the heavier springs and run the course. Drink plenty of coffee between each run. Call me when you're done.

I can tell you this, the handling differences between stock rear springs/25mm bar and the heavier rear springs with the stock bar will very different. This doesn't mean you can'y or shouldn't keep you stock rear springs while adding a 25mm bar. Just be prepared for the backend to be a little quicker than you on occasion...entertaining, but not the fastest way thru a turn.

Forgot; ride height also plays a significant role in handling. No matter what you do with springs and dampers, you must establish a ride height that allows the stock suspension to work. Macpherson Struts are very different from double wishbone designs. We have the former. There is some amount of camber compensation built into our cars. And as we have read, camber is affected by ride height as is toe and caster. There is a relationship between all of these that must be maintained if you want a predictable handling car. Or else, you'll need to re-locate suspension pick-up points, steering racks and such. Too low also causes bump-steer problems, very nasty.

My advice, if you don't want to worry about anything in the last paragraph, do not lower your car beyond 1.5 inches...1" is probably sufficient.

No, I haven't performed any modifications to my Mini yet. I don't even know what the spring rates are. My comments come from learning from a lot of mistakes over the past 24 years, both on and off the track...some were very costly.

 

Another technique, not unique to me, that I employeed AFTER selecting my spring and damping rates was to keep the rear sway attached via somewhat loose hime joints. So, the bar was just along for the ride in the straight ahead. This also meant that the bar did not generate little tiny forces when encountering bumps in the raod whilst traveling straight ahead. The bar simply worked when bending into a turn, and it was very very progressive. you could feel the bar actually working, like throttling your car. That to me is peace of mind...the car never did anything stupid, that was my job.

If you set up your rear bar in like fashion, just be prepared for lots of noise from the hime joints. This was an adjustable GroundControl 25mm bar - solid, heavy and inexpensive - but it worked.

 

Guess I'll be getting the H-Sport Comp bar!

 

I ran into snap oversteer at an autocross, second turn or so, cold day, R-compund tires still cold. Frankly, unless you are team driving, running consecutive laps, or the ambient is above 60, your tires are a major factor that will change considerably from start to finsh of a 50 sec run.


Of coursr on the track, you get a lap to warm them up.

 

I say it all depends on your driving style, tires and your suspension, too... For example: I've got H&R springs and the 19mm rear H&R swaybar set on full stiff, running Falken Azenis and it's perfectly balanced for track and autocrossing. My buddy runs H&R springs, camber plates up front, Falken Azenis and a 22mm Madness rear bar and sets it to full stiff for autocross and full soft for track days. So, YMMV!

The only right setup is the setup that works for you... some people like a looser car and some like a hint of understeer for safety. You might have to play with it a bit to get it setup to your liking. Some people have provided good starting points, though.