Suspension H&R Sway Bar Kit
#76
02-05-2019, 06:24 AM
I will give the middle setting a try. I also considered the NM sway bar end links as those can be shortened- possibly reduce preload. Just based on numbers it seems like the HR (or possibly NM 25mm) on the loose setting would be what I'm looking for. I had tried an upgraded (rear only) sway bar and even disconnecting the front bar on a Neon RT I had, while it did induce oversteer the car felt lousy and unbalanced the 99% of the time. Apparently the track folks liked it this way.
As for not having a front sway bar or a small front bar with a large rear bar, that’s not what LAP motors did on their Gen III race MINIs that won the IMISA manufacture’s championship last year. They run a big front and rear bar. Not having a front swaybar that matches the rear never worked for me on the track. And, just having a large rear bar would cause unacceptable oversteer at inappropriate times.
#78
02-05-2019, 08:23 AM
Thanks Eddie. As you may have noticed there seems to be a consensus to only upgrade the rear bar so I pro actively tried to squash that, you did a better job tho.
By preload I mean when I set the rear Eibach bar to the stiffer (shorter) setting the bar is no longer horizontal to the ground. i.e. the bar ends are angled upwards.
It is a bit better with a full tank of gas.
Do you know what ratio bars are used at IMISA? Upstate NY, I've been there (buddy lives in East Meredith) lots of room to use cruise control but yes some tough roads.
By preload I mean when I set the rear Eibach bar to the stiffer (shorter) setting the bar is no longer horizontal to the ground. i.e. the bar ends are angled upwards.
It is a bit better with a full tank of gas.
Do you know what ratio bars are used at IMISA? Upstate NY, I've been there (buddy lives in East Meredith) lots of room to use cruise control but yes some tough roads.
Last edited by MikeMJCW; 02-05-2019 at 10:07 AM.
#79
02-05-2019, 10:40 AM
I think you're using "preload" wrong. Preload is when the bar is twisted when car is sitting still- one side is pushing up and the other down. Usually caused by a crooked bar, which adjustable end-links will let you compensate for.
The bar being level to the ground- right, that is desirable, but in these cars clearance is so tight that it's more about the bar not hitting anything. Especially once lowered and everything has moved a bit, you probably need shorter links to compensate. I don't think this slight change in angle is something you could feel or measure though. Actually I tried changing end-link lengths at one point just for this reason, and couldn't tell a difference. Whereas moving holes makes an obvious difference.
The bar being level to the ground- right, that is desirable, but in these cars clearance is so tight that it's more about the bar not hitting anything. Especially once lowered and everything has moved a bit, you probably need shorter links to compensate. I don't think this slight change in angle is something you could feel or measure though. Actually I tried changing end-link lengths at one point just for this reason, and couldn't tell a difference. Whereas moving holes makes an obvious difference.
#80
02-05-2019, 02:57 PM
Thanks Eddie. As you may have noticed there seems to be a consensus to only upgrade the rear bar so I pro actively tried to squash that, you did a better job tho.
By preload I mean when I set the rear Eibach bar to the stiffer (shorter) setting the bar is no longer horizontal to the ground. i.e. the bar ends are angled upwards.
It is a bit better with a full tank of gas.
Do you know what ratio bars are used at IMISA? Upstate NY, I've been there (buddy lives in East Meredith) lots of room to use cruise control but yes some tough roads.
By preload I mean when I set the rear Eibach bar to the stiffer (shorter) setting the bar is no longer horizontal to the ground. i.e. the bar ends are angled upwards.
It is a bit better with a full tank of gas.
Do you know what ratio bars are used at IMISA? Upstate NY, I've been there (buddy lives in East Meredith) lots of room to use cruise control but yes some tough roads.
That all said, I follow another thread of a person who also takes their MINI to the track and he didn’t like the stiffer front sway bar. It takes away some of the independent nature of the suspension and it bounce the car too much for his liking when he would go over corner curbing. His solution to balance his RSB was to put stiffer springs in up front. There are pros and cons to each of these setups and it depends on what you want to compromise to achieve the handling you want.
I saw the LAP cars at Lime Rock Park a few years ago, without the front wheels on. But, I didn’t get to talk to the LAP Motors guys about their setup. I have a 27 mm front sway bar and their front bar looked to be larger than that. Sorry I don’t have more than that.
Yes, we do have some very fun roads to run a MINI on, including some great ones a bit south of your friend’s place. Sounds like you got to enjoy some of them.
And there is a race track not too far from there.
#81
02-05-2019, 02:59 PM
I think you're using "preload" wrong. Preload is when the bar is twisted when car is sitting still- one side is pushing up and the other down. Usually caused by a crooked bar, which adjustable end-links will let you compensate for.
The bar being level to the ground- right, that is desirable, but in these cars clearance is so tight that it's more about the bar not hitting anything. Especially once lowered and everything has moved a bit, you probably need shorter links to compensate. I don't think this slight change in angle is something you could feel or measure though. Actually I tried changing end-link lengths at one point just for this reason, and couldn't tell a difference. Whereas moving holes makes an obvious difference.
The bar being level to the ground- right, that is desirable, but in these cars clearance is so tight that it's more about the bar not hitting anything. Especially once lowered and everything has moved a bit, you probably need shorter links to compensate. I don't think this slight change in angle is something you could feel or measure though. Actually I tried changing end-link lengths at one point just for this reason, and couldn't tell a difference. Whereas moving holes makes an obvious difference.
#82
02-05-2019, 03:10 PM
Thanks, you're correct, glad you understood what I mean and you saved me $120 on end links. Actually something I really enjoy about this car is no brake dive (my 2014 SS Camaro rear wheels would come off the ground Lol).
I love my front bar, turn in is instant now. I'm thinking about trying the NM 25mm rear bar along with the 28mm front Eibach and both my bars can be hollow too!
I love my front bar, turn in is instant now. I'm thinking about trying the NM 25mm rear bar along with the 28mm front Eibach and both my bars can be hollow too!
#83
02-11-2019, 12:45 PM
What'd ya guys think about KW Clubsports, are they to much for the street?(I have JCW Pro coilovers)
Every Alfa I drove in Italy was neutral and could accelerate in turns. I also had a Fiesta that had factory oversteer. (Yes I test drove the new Giulia not enough HP and still no stick)
Seems like I struggle in the states for a car that has no lean/roll at all.
Every Alfa I drove in Italy was neutral and could accelerate in turns. I also had a Fiesta that had factory oversteer. (Yes I test drove the new Giulia not enough HP and still no stick)
Seems like I struggle in the states for a car that has no lean/roll at all.
Last edited by MikeMJCW; 02-16-2019 at 01:54 PM.
#85
02-16-2019, 02:55 PM
Sorry, if this sounds dense of me, but what do you mean by “bounced”? I have stiff sway bars front and rear, but they don’t cause the car to do what I would call “bounce”. The do make the whole suspension very stiff, so bumps can seem jarring but that would be it.
#86
02-16-2019, 03:04 PM
#87
02-16-2019, 03:06 PM
Because any bump taken on one side transfers more to the opposite side with a stiffer bar. Causing both sides to "bounce"
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#88
02-16-2019, 06:08 PM
Just seconding TV's point- be sure to check that your bars are rotating freely and not binding in the bushings. Binding will for sure cause excessive bounce / harshness. See the video in my post above (#55). I don't know how the Eibach bushings fit, but there's a good chance you need to add a washer or two.
But if binding is not a problem, you might be finding what I found- there is a tradeoff between ride comfort and flat cornering with sway bars. Someone explained it this way, and it makes sense to me- we know what stiffer springs will do- equal amount of less body roll in corners, and harsher ride over bumps. On the other hand, the sway bar gives 100% of its stiffness in the corners, and only 50% when a wheel hits a bump. Both sides of the suspension being active vs. one side. But still, 50% of a really stiff bar is still really stiff. For me, H&R was too stiff.
But if binding is not a problem, you might be finding what I found- there is a tradeoff between ride comfort and flat cornering with sway bars. Someone explained it this way, and it makes sense to me- we know what stiffer springs will do- equal amount of less body roll in corners, and harsher ride over bumps. On the other hand, the sway bar gives 100% of its stiffness in the corners, and only 50% when a wheel hits a bump. Both sides of the suspension being active vs. one side. But still, 50% of a really stiff bar is still really stiff. For me, H&R was too stiff.
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#89
02-17-2019, 03:53 AM
I informed the installer (dealer) to be sure they rotated freely but haven't confirmed it for myself. The bar feels fine in the softer setting tho. I may be getting used to the car and pushing the limits more? That's why I've been looking at KW Clubsports.
This car is very easy to drive hard, unlike my previous muscle cars.
This car is very easy to drive hard, unlike my previous muscle cars.
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Clutch Wotan (04-04-2019)
#91
02-17-2019, 09:07 AM
Just seconding TV's point- be sure to check that your bars are rotating freely and not binding in the bushings. Binding will for sure cause excessive bounce / harshness. See the video in my post above (#55). I don't know how the Eibach bushings fit, but there's a good chance you need to add a washer or two.
But if binding is not a problem, you might be finding what I found- there is a tradeoff between ride comfort and flat cornering with sway bars. Someone explained it this way, and it makes sense to me- we know what stiffer springs will do- equal amount of less body roll in corners, and harsher ride over bumps. On the other hand, the sway bar gives 100% of its stiffness in the corners, and only 50% when a wheel hits a bump. Both sides of the suspension being active vs. one side. But still, 50% of a really stiff bar is still really stiff. For me, H&R was too stiff.
But if binding is not a problem, you might be finding what I found- there is a tradeoff between ride comfort and flat cornering with sway bars. Someone explained it this way, and it makes sense to me- we know what stiffer springs will do- equal amount of less body roll in corners, and harsher ride over bumps. On the other hand, the sway bar gives 100% of its stiffness in the corners, and only 50% when a wheel hits a bump. Both sides of the suspension being active vs. one side. But still, 50% of a really stiff bar is still really stiff. For me, H&R was too stiff.
The independence from side to side comes into play with personal preference. Personally, I don’t mind how the larger sway bar’s effect on that part of the suspension. Others, very much do mind that affect and they opt for stiffer springs, instead, to achieve higher roll stiffness and are willing to accept the stiffer ride in order to maintain the side to side independence. Then there is the affect the shocks have on the whole thing, which can be used to fine tune the whole thing.
I know this is a Gen III thread and I have a Gen II, but the cars are still quite similar, although the Gen III is slightly heavier. With that, the sway bars are going to be similar as well. A reason I might not be seeing that “bounce” is that a 25mm solid RSB is about 1.7 times stiffer than my 25mm hollow bar, and my bar is on the softest setting. My shocks may also play iinto how my sway bars interact with the rest of suspension. Adjustable shocks can be used to achieve a result in overall suspension performance that is desireable but is in between sway bar settings or between sway bar sizes or spring stiffnesses.
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MikeMJCW (02-18-2019)
#92
02-17-2019, 09:10 AM
#93
04-04-2019, 10:47 AM
OVERDRIVE
Just for fun and torture every few months I call another shop to inquire about getting a sway bar installed. Even the most hole in the wall shops all look up Alldata or similar and come back at me with $400+ install charges for this job.
I remember the VIP Custom people telling me the shop they use in AZ does them for a flat rate of $125.
I want to scream!
I remember the VIP Custom people telling me the shop they use in AZ does them for a flat rate of $125.
I want to scream!
#94
04-04-2019, 11:44 PM
5th Gear
Just seconding TV's point- be sure to check that your bars are rotating freely and not binding in the bushings. Binding will for sure cause excessive bounce / harshness. See the video in my post above (#55). I don't know how the Eibach bushings fit, but there's a good chance you need to add a washer or two.
But if binding is not a problem, you might be finding what I found- there is a tradeoff between ride comfort and flat cornering with sway bars. Someone explained it this way, and it makes sense to me- we know what stiffer springs will do- equal amount of less body roll in corners, and harsher ride over bumps. On the other hand, the sway bar gives 100% of its stiffness in the corners, and only 50% when a wheel hits a bump. Both sides of the suspension being active vs. one side. But still, 50% of a really stiff bar is still really stiff. For me, H&R was too stiff.
But if binding is not a problem, you might be finding what I found- there is a tradeoff between ride comfort and flat cornering with sway bars. Someone explained it this way, and it makes sense to me- we know what stiffer springs will do- equal amount of less body roll in corners, and harsher ride over bumps. On the other hand, the sway bar gives 100% of its stiffness in the corners, and only 50% when a wheel hits a bump. Both sides of the suspension being active vs. one side. But still, 50% of a really stiff bar is still really stiff. For me, H&R was too stiff.
#95
04-06-2019, 12:51 PM
My F56 with H&R springs and sway bars is my daily driver.
Its a matter of what you define too harsh.
No offense to J_L !!!
FIY
I am now in contact with H&R Germany.
They claim no one has complained about the bushing issues, but are engineering new ones based on my
observations.
My response was, how many people have actually
purchased F56 bars.
I know of only 2 in the US!!
Its a matter of what you define too harsh.
No offense to J_L !!!
FIY
I am now in contact with H&R Germany.
They claim no one has complained about the bushing issues, but are engineering new ones based on my
observations.
My response was, how many people have actually
purchased F56 bars.
I know of only 2 in the US!!
#97
04-07-2019, 07:30 AM
Very well put. Reading on NAM about people’s opinion of the ride of a MINI, it does run the full spectrum from the people with base Coopers with Koni FSD installed thinking that they are way to harsh, to people like us (I have the big front and rear sway bars and Bilstein B8s) who like the tight ride these setups give.
#98
04-08-2019, 04:17 PM
Yes, for me, too stiff on the street, but I can't say that it's totally right for the track either. I didn't like the ride with the bars. It's like one bump affects the entire car. The left and right are too tied together. I'd say track only, mostly just personal opinion. But not entirely based on my butt-feel - try braking over bad pavement or a bump / dip. I noticed the anti-lock braking kicking in a few times in those cases with the H&R bars on.
I'd also say that I noticed the biggest increase in flat handling when I put in ST-X coilovers (same as KW v1). The bars made the car feel only somewhat flatter, but quite a bit more harsh. The tradeoff didn't seem balanced. I tired to make the ride better by changing coilovers, but keeping the H&R bars. Went to KW Street Comfort coilovers (set near full stiff), and they are indeed well-composed over bumps, but unfortunately also a bit soft upon initial turn-in. Good tradeoff for me, though.
So now I'm on OEM Sports Suspension front bar, and VIP rear bar. Sometimes I feel... yeah I miss the flatness =) But most of the time, I'm happy how it rides.
If I do get the itch to try something new... I would like to try the Way 25mm hollow rear bar (NM would be great as well, just kinda expensive). If there was a front bar that was just a *little* stiffer, I'd try that. I'd also like to try KW v2, or ST-XA.
I took a quick ride in TV's car, and yes it does corner super flat. With H&R springs on the adjustable OEM shocks, he has a pretty great system there. Assuming he is ok with the harsh ride =)
I'd also say that I noticed the biggest increase in flat handling when I put in ST-X coilovers (same as KW v1). The bars made the car feel only somewhat flatter, but quite a bit more harsh. The tradeoff didn't seem balanced. I tired to make the ride better by changing coilovers, but keeping the H&R bars. Went to KW Street Comfort coilovers (set near full stiff), and they are indeed well-composed over bumps, but unfortunately also a bit soft upon initial turn-in. Good tradeoff for me, though.
So now I'm on OEM Sports Suspension front bar, and VIP rear bar. Sometimes I feel... yeah I miss the flatness =) But most of the time, I'm happy how it rides.
If I do get the itch to try something new... I would like to try the Way 25mm hollow rear bar (NM would be great as well, just kinda expensive). If there was a front bar that was just a *little* stiffer, I'd try that. I'd also like to try KW v2, or ST-XA.
I took a quick ride in TV's car, and yes it does corner super flat. With H&R springs on the adjustable OEM shocks, he has a pretty great system there. Assuming he is ok with the harsh ride =)
#99
04-09-2019, 07:36 AM
Yes, for me, too stiff on the street, but I can't say that it's totally right for the track either. I didn't like the ride with the bars. It's like one bump affects the entire car. The left and right are too tied together. I'd say track only, mostly just personal opinion. But not entirely based on my butt-feel - try braking over bad pavement or a bump / dip. I noticed the anti-lock braking kicking in a few times in those cases with the H&R bars on.
I'd also say that I noticed the biggest increase in flat handling when I put in ST-X coilovers (same as KW v1). The bars made the car feel only somewhat flatter, but quite a bit more harsh. The tradeoff didn't seem balanced. I tired to make the ride better by changing coilovers, but keeping the H&R bars. Went to KW Street Comfort coilovers (set near full stiff), and they are indeed well-composed over bumps, but unfortunately also a bit soft upon initial turn-in. Good tradeoff for me, though.
So now I'm on OEM Sports Suspension front bar, and VIP rear bar. Sometimes I feel... yeah I miss the flatness =) But most of the time, I'm happy how it rides.
If I do get the itch to try something new... I would like to try the Way 25mm hollow rear bar (NM would be great as well, just kinda expensive). If there was a front bar that was just a *little* stiffer, I'd try that. I'd also like to try KW v2, or ST-XA.
I took a quick ride in TV's car, and yes it does corner super flat. With H&R springs on the adjustable OEM shocks, he has a pretty great system there. Assuming he is ok with the harsh ride =)
I'd also say that I noticed the biggest increase in flat handling when I put in ST-X coilovers (same as KW v1). The bars made the car feel only somewhat flatter, but quite a bit more harsh. The tradeoff didn't seem balanced. I tired to make the ride better by changing coilovers, but keeping the H&R bars. Went to KW Street Comfort coilovers (set near full stiff), and they are indeed well-composed over bumps, but unfortunately also a bit soft upon initial turn-in. Good tradeoff for me, though.
So now I'm on OEM Sports Suspension front bar, and VIP rear bar. Sometimes I feel... yeah I miss the flatness =) But most of the time, I'm happy how it rides.
If I do get the itch to try something new... I would like to try the Way 25mm hollow rear bar (NM would be great as well, just kinda expensive). If there was a front bar that was just a *little* stiffer, I'd try that. I'd also like to try KW v2, or ST-XA.
I took a quick ride in TV's car, and yes it does corner super flat. With H&R springs on the adjustable OEM shocks, he has a pretty great system there. Assuming he is ok with the harsh ride =)
However, I have to disagree with your conclusion from what you said in your first paragraph to what you said in your following paragraphs. That is, (paraphrased) because everything was better with the ST coilovers then it must have been the H&R that caused the harshness. With the change to the ST coilovers, you make 3 changes to the suspension; 1 - new and far better shocks, 2 - You changed spring rates, 3 - you changed the sway bar (I think that is what I get from reading about your changes). A huge change you made was to change to a better shock. It is possible that, had you put in a better shock (eg Bilstein B6 or B8s; Koni Yellows, etc) with the H&R bars, then the ride might have been the same or better than what you have now with the ST shocks. My point is that, when you make multiple changes at a time, there is no way to draw a conclusion as to what was good or bad, or what fixed what.
Whenever there is a change to spring rates, which would include sway bars, then consideration needs to be given to the shock absorbers needing to be changed. If the spring rates change radically, then the shocks may not be properly match to the new rates and ride and handling will suffer. The other thing is, there are far better shocks out in the aftermarket world than what MINI puts on their cars. The chattering over bumps that people here are experiencing with the larger sway bars may be because of the need for better shocks to handle the higher spring rates as opposed to anything being wrong with the swaybars or its bushings. Also, the MINI shocks don’t have to be “bad” to not be able to handle the higher spring rates. It can be that they just don’t have the right dampening characteristics for the change you made.
Back to J_L’s post - Enjoy the Ride...
#100
04-09-2019, 08:47 AM
Hi Eddie- Yes I agree with all that. But to be clear, I had the coilovers for a while first, then added the bars. The coilovers alone were near my limit of harshness, and I didn't expect that the bars would affect the ride as much as they did. I think you're saying that those brands are better than ST? The ST are made by KW in the same factory, same specs. Same ride and quality.
As for the mix of various bars, springs, shocks... agree, it's all connected. It would be very cool if one tuner had a complete package, but I kinda don't think anyone does. Yes, H&R has the bars, and also springs, but then also coilovers. Is it the springs or coils that they designed the bars around? Eibach has their bars, and then springs... but which shocks would they have you run? And how much development and testing are they really doing, especially on our low-sales-volume minis? Are they just making thicker springs, checking fitment and getting them out the door? Or did they try many versions on both street and track? Honest questions, if anyone has talked to them.
As they say... there's a bit of black magic in suspension tuning. I think all we can do is hear others' recommendations (especially from a tuner who gets feedback from a lot of customers, like Way), and experiment.
Cheers
As for the mix of various bars, springs, shocks... agree, it's all connected. It would be very cool if one tuner had a complete package, but I kinda don't think anyone does. Yes, H&R has the bars, and also springs, but then also coilovers. Is it the springs or coils that they designed the bars around? Eibach has their bars, and then springs... but which shocks would they have you run? And how much development and testing are they really doing, especially on our low-sales-volume minis? Are they just making thicker springs, checking fitment and getting them out the door? Or did they try many versions on both street and track? Honest questions, if anyone has talked to them.
As they say... there's a bit of black magic in suspension tuning. I think all we can do is hear others' recommendations (especially from a tuner who gets feedback from a lot of customers, like Way), and experiment.
Cheers