The intent of camber plates is to provide more negative camber in the front, which provides more traction when cornering because the tire sits flatter on the ground during the turn. With negative camber the tire sits more on the inside edge when going straight but rolls over flat when cornering. Stock the front camber on your car is not adjustable.

There are adjustable camber plates such as the Hotchis or TSW plates or plates that come with coil-over setups. These allow the camber to be adjusted, provide better support to the strut tower, and replace the failure prone top rubber strut bearing. However, these adjustable camber plates are expensive.

There is a cheaper alternative ($180) to the adjustable plates which is the fixed camber plate sold by Ireland Engineering. It adds 1.25 degrees of negative camber to whatever camber your car has stock (usually around 0.2-0.5 degrees of negative camber). Thus, with the fixed camber plate you get about -1.5 to -1.75 negative camber which is great for handling. However, it is not adjustable. The fixed camber plate is also beefier than the stock plate. The fixed camber plate fits your budget.

I agree that a larger rear sway bar is a great mod and you will not be dissatisified. I am just suggesting that with your limited budget you might see a bigger benefit with more negative front camber than the larger rear bar. Even if you add the fixed camber plates first, you will probably still want to add a larger rear bar when you have the money. So it does not matter much because you will want both mods.

The alignment shop might not know how to adjust to 1/16" because their machine will probably measure camber in degrees. You also have to be specific on the amount of toe per side verse total toe (right side + left side).
For the front about -0.7 degrees per side and -0.14 to -0.15 degress total toe should work good. The OEM spec is for toe-in instead of toe-out. Be clear that you want toe-out which is negative degrees (positive degrees is toe-in). They will probably not want to adjust the rear toe so make sure they agree to adjust the rear. It took a couple hours for the shop to adjust my rear toe so they lost money on my alignment.

 

As people have suggested maybe your shocks are worn-out. How do your shocks feel? Bounch the car at each corner (one corner at a time) and release the car. Does the car keep bounching or does it stop quickly (within one or two up/down cycles)? Does one corner or end seem different than the others?

 

Thanks for the tips I have no idea about this. One question I have to ask, if they are not adjustable then how do they adjust it?

Anyway why would the OEM be toe in when toe out is better? You have to remember I have no clue with suspension and am very interested in learning.

Also I am assuming if they do work on the rear I would want 0.7 on each side resulting in 0.14-0.15 total and make sure they know I want toe in?

I will check my shocks in that manner, thanks for the tip because I don't know how to check if things are busted. From what I remember it is actually quite tight. The owner before me that put 24,000 of the 40,000 on it used it to take her cello to rehearsal... so I am assuming it hasn't seen real hard times before me. And I baby it as best I can.

 

The fixed camber plates from Irelang Engineering are not adjustable but they relocate the top strut mount (where you see the top of the shock come through into the engine compartment) to add a predefined amount (-1.25 degrees) of negative camber to the front suspension. Many people on NAM have good comments about these fixed camber plates. If you do not need to adjust your camber such as adjusting to -3.0 deg for auto-x and then adjusting back to -1.5 deg for street, then these are a less expensive way to get more negative camber (the camber just can not be changed from the amount of negative camber the plates provide when installed). A disadvantage with not being adjustable is if your stock camber is way off (when the car was manufactured) is that the fixed camber plates can not adjust to make up for the improper stock camber. However this is usually not a problem. I use adjustable camber plates because they add support against strut tower mushrooming, replace the weak stock strut bearings, can correct for my unever stock camber, and I can adjust to -2 degrees (more than the fixed plates would provide). Here is a link to the vendor's web page:
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/St...unt2=210944771

Front toe-in is more stable. Front toe-out makes for quicker turn-in response which feels a little dartier. However, the suggested small amount of toe-out is not an issue. Less toe, whether in or out) also helps tires last longer because they do not scrub along the road surface.

For the rear, I would suggest 0 toe or as close to zero as they can get. A little toe-in is fine at the rear. As I said the rear toe adjustment is a pain (much trial and error) so they will probably only get close to zero.

My 2003 MCS stocks were very worn by 45k miles but I had H&R lowering springs which tend to wear out stock length shocks faster.

 

Just throwing some more info in the ring.......

http://webbmotorsports.com/index.php...d=13&Itemid=31

 

This is a driver preference note - not meant to disagree with other advice.

I like a little tow in in the rear. This helps the rear tires to begin to build slip angles in sync with the front. For me, this is very important because I want the back end planted and stable as it enters a turn. This is not great advice if you AutoX.

I've always been a little nervous about zero toe front or rear and this is a theoretical note. If there were no deflection in any of the suspension - all hard points and no bushings, and we had no SAI/king pin, zero tow might actual cause a car to feel numb and nervous. As an extreme, center point steering and zero tow might produce a car that is really scary to drive because those subtle distortions at the contact patch may be reduce by so much that we have no signals about slip and slide and traction. Obviously if we have the stock mini LCA bushing installed, and a couple mm tow out, the wheel will more than likely tow in under acceleration...but if you have the Alta unit or the Powerflex unit installed, deflection is nearl nothing.

An answer to your question about factory tow settings...tow in causes the thrust angles of the two front tires to converge at some point in front of the car. These forces cancel each other out along a centerline - as long as tow is equal - and make driving straight ahead stable. Tow out does the opposite; the forces do not cancel each other out and each tire will grab and pull to is respective side depending on road conditions and throtle position - this is in straight ahead.

tow-out will aid initial turn-in confidence and grip, but may hurt powerful front driver exit speed. It's a compromise. Tow out will also reduce braking distances and brake feel - feel here from the tire contact patch, not the brakes themsleves. There will be a point where the compromise is biased too much, really poor braking for example.

As we all know, an AutoX setup is nothing like a road car setup and each in its perfect state will run poorly in the other's venue...and a dual purpase car is the hardest to setup and live with!

 

Mitch,

there are some things being said that I don't necessarily agree with (as in toe being adjusted in degree angle in stead of distance, never heard of that. My adjustments of toe have always been measured in fractions of inches). Personally you need to determine for yourself what you're wanting the car to do that it isn't doing. My first mod was the rear sway bar, yes it's popular and yes it's cheap and yes it brings the Mini (if it's adjustable) to a neutral feel. There are alot of things that can be done to accomplish a neutral feel, high tire pressure in the rear, adding front negative camber, reducing rear negative camber, larger rear sway bar, smaller front sway bar and I'm sure a few other things as well. All of these options but one has trade offs, the rear sway bar is the only mod that does NOT have a negative trade off (unless you autox in which the trade off is moving to the ST class) it just does what it is supposed to do which is reduce or eliminate understeer and/or induce oversteer. Just remember one thing if it's an adjustable modification chances are you can make adjustments to get the car to handle how you want it to.

 

Ok well I am taking the MINI in tomorrow to be aligned I do not want to end up with an autoX only car and it is more important to me that it is a great street car. Is the slights toe out in front and 0 toe in back still appropriate for me?

 

I agree with meb on the toe settings. I don't do much autox so toe out doesn't really give me any advantages for street and open track driving. I disliked how the car felt with zero toe up front on the 2 cars I tried it on and really disliked toe out. I mostly do fun street drives and HPDE track days. For a fun driving car, I generally use a bit of toe in up front. Usually 1/8" or 1/16" or .06 - .08.

I agree with a lot of the other items mentioned though and I believe that having more negative camber up front can be a better step than stiffening the rear of the car by installing a stiffer rear sway bar. Plus the sway bar can be installed w/o affecting alignment. The camber plates may affect alignment (can't remember this now) and require disassembly of the front suspension.

GotCurves - on a Hunter or similar machine, the toe measurements are indeed in degrees unless the alignment dude does the calcs manually.

Mitch - make sure the alignment shop can weight the car as per Mini's specs or at least with weight to mimic the suspension changes that happen when you are in the driver's seat. Mini says to put 150lbs of weight in each seat and ~100lbs of weight in the trunk to do the alignment. They specify this b/c camber and toe change with ride height (which is affected by the weight).

 

Mitch,

Disregard everything I previously said I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. Good luck with the car.

Penelope I was looking at the computer screen at the 5 different shops that I've had alignments done at (custom alignments) and everyone that I saw had readings in inches or MM, but then again the technicians never asked me how many degrees I wanted, they asked me how many 1/16ths did I want as the adjustment was done in 1/32" incraments. I didn't mean to mis lead anyone I will go back under the rock I came from you all can carry on.

 

GotCurves - Your input was great I thought. I don't think you misled anyone.

There are different ways to accomplish similar goals. If the suspension wasn't coming apart for shocks or springs, the rear sway bar would be a more logical first step as you stated. If the suspension is coming apart, then IMO the front camber plates would be more logical.

Some alignment shops do indeed work in inches and MM. Some don't. Its highly dependent on the shop, the equipment and the tech.

Mitch - one last comment - if you are indeed going to be changing the camber plates, shocks or bushings soon, wait until that work is done before getting the car aligned since it will likely need to be realigned afterwards. If you are not touching those parts, go ahead and have it aligned since it sounds like your alignment is totally off. This car is a biatch to align (especially rear toe) so do invest some time in finding a good place to do it that other Minis have used. Like many things in like, you often get what you pay for.

 

Well I am completely confused now. I am actually going to cancel my appointment tomorrow, and find some time to take it to the dealer. I was not planning on taking the whole front end apart I want something I can instal myself and create a noticeable difference. It does not sound like camber plates are something I want to do myself. I also really like how my MINI use to drive and how my father's drove when new so I feel the dealer must use good settings for my purpose. Tonight I will order the MINI-Madness sway bar because I know this isn't dependent on new shocks, camber plates and everything. Like I said before I mostly drive on the street and I like to go play at autoX. I really don't care what class I am in because I don't really know what my time means or really care how to improve it. I go to AutoX because I don't have to worry about getting pulled over by the police...

I really do appreciate everyones input and I value the time and knowledge that is put into responses. I just can not afford to take it to a shop and end up having to pay to have it changed again if I don't like it. Otherwise I would have had an alignment done a long time ago.

 

Sounds like a fine plan. An alignment and larger rear sway bar will be great.

 

I also did the test recommended on my shocks and I could hardly get the car to move. The little bit it did move it just came right up and did not bounce at all. So I feel confident my shocks are in pretty good shape.

 

...one can also reduce rear tire pressure to achieve 'more' oversteer. This technique will yield more warning about slip/saturation and is probably better suited to a road course - when compared to an AutoX course. Read another way, rotation is a little slower but since the kinetic energy built up on a road course is much higher than an autoX course the fore-warning is a great aid. On an autoX course I think you want faster rotation.

I too agree with the others here that a rear swaybar is the single most effective improvement you can make. How you dial it in depends on other adjustments like camber. And again - my opinion - my rear swaybar is dialed in to help traction out of turns with an eye on rotation in the first part of the turn. This is not an autoX mindset.


GOTCURVES - I drive a lot highway miles - 60K per year. So tow out isn't an option for me...I've spent way too much money replacing tires and finally gave up on the benfit. The same mileage on curvy roads, per my experience, will not wear the tires as aggressively. But these are aside comments...your tow specs in your #11 reply are ideal, I think...PenelopG3 was simply offering a look from a different vantage point. I use as little tow in as possible without tow being zero and the car runs fine on both street and track...but this is perhaps less than ideal.

Oh, some of those older Civics/Acuras running around with SLA setups - properly setup - have phenomenal capabilities. The steering is horrid - no feel - and the body does...did...flex a lot! But make no mistake, a properly setup and well driven civic (SLA) is not an easy car to to chase down. Every time I drive that car I like it...but when I step into the mini I hate it.

 

Didn't read the whole thread, but did notice that you are an R50 and are looking into a 22mm RSB. That may be a little large for an R50. I have an H-Sport 19mm RSB that I am selling that IMO is a great match for the R50. Let me know if you are interested...

 

My last alignment was on a Hunter machine. The units are degrees which caught me off guard, as the specs that I brought to the appointment were in fractions of an inch.

On front camber changes: by increasing front camber you will increase lateral grip by putting the outside tire in its happy place, but you hurt the car's ability to power out of slow tight turns, as a happy outside tire = a pi$$ed off inside tire with our McStrut front suspension. The camber plates and rear bar together probably compliment each other very well.

 

Increase the front track a little, and some neg camber - not a lot and then dial-in the rear swayber to a point where you have just enough initial - comfortable -rotation upon corner entry but can power out of the second half of the turn. The swaybar adjustment - to my way of thinking - should be absolutely limited to the amount of additional traction it provides to the inside front tire...hence, the amount of neg camber required will be less. And a wider front track will also give the front tires more mechanical leverage - by distributing a little more weight to the inside front tire. Cautionary note...since the front track is wider it adds to front roll stiffness and will therefore add more understeer, depite giving the front tires more grip...dial in a little more rear bar.

If you were to have only these three elements to change, change them in this order: wider front track then adjust camber and rear bar in a forward and backward analysis. Individual setups will vary depending upon spring and shock rates for example...oh and tire construction.

 

This stuff can get complicated to someone new to this topic. I thought I would share a link to Grassroots Motorsports magazine's tech articles. They have some excellent articles on Suspension tuning.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/art...category/tech/

Happy reading.

 

Ya at this point it is all over my head. I basically have no idea what everyone is talking about. I don't want my tires to ware to fast, I have a limited budget. So I am going to put my rear sway bar on when it gets here and have the dealership (which is actually very good and very helpful) do an alignment to spec. I liked it when it was aligned and I like my dad's 07 that is aligned so as long as it is like that I will be happy.

 

Factory alignment is poor. Horrible actually if you do any aggressive driving it actually will accelerate wear. The car NEEDS at least -1.25 degrees of camber on the front to keep wear somewhat even across the tire. I have -2 degrees and wear pretty evenly, even with mostly street driving.

Unless you are eating through tires like mad right now, save your money, do a little reading and research on Camber/Caster/Toe and set it the way YOU want it. The factory personalized the alignment for uber slow drivers, its crap.

Also, all they are adjusting is toe...you can have joe schmo do it for much cheaper ~ $59...thats the only thing adjustable from the factory, unless you have 05+ like me in which case you get a little rear camber adjustment too woo hoo!

 

What about one with an LSD?

 

You can also take a noticeable amount of slop out of the rear suspension inexpensively by installing urethane "helper" bushings in the rear trailing arms.
Like these

 

Doesn't matter in my opinion. A rear bar should be used to adjust front end grip - assuming we're discussing a FWD layout. An LSD is helpful in many ways, but if you are a smooth driver the benefit may not be as noticable as one would think...with the correct rear bar setting and a semi-compliant LCA bushing my car will point and squirt thru fairly tight turns - I can feel both tires working in sync with no LSD...not to be confused with LSD