Suspension Madness lower stress bar
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2nd Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
From: Pasadena, CA
Madness lower stress bar
I installed the Mini Madness lower stress bar on my coupe and am amazed at the difference I could feel. The front end now feels like it is carved from granite. I never noticed any problem before I put it on but can clearly feel its effect now. There is a minimal amount of NVH added to the car but the car can put down its power better and has much less affect from any left to right deflection. I haven't even taken it to the track yet and do not drive hard on the street. I highly recommend this product. I can only imagine the effect it would have on a Cabrio.
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 918
Likes: 27
From: Pulaski,NY
rlfletch
I assume that you are talking about the trapazoid brace. If you would like to see an additional and equal improvement add the Mid Brace from GTT. They work great together.
Steve
I assume that you are talking about the trapazoid brace. If you would like to see an additional and equal improvement add the Mid Brace from GTT. They work great together.
Steve
I installed the Mini Madness lower stress bar on my coupe and am amazed at the difference I could feel. The front end now feels like it is carved from granite. I never noticed any problem before I put it on but can clearly feel its effect now. There is a minimal amount of NVH added to the car but the car can put down its power better and has much less affect from any left to right deflection. I haven't even taken it to the track yet and do not drive hard on the street. I highly recommend this product. I can only imagine the effect it would have on a Cabrio.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
Madness lower brace or OMP lower brace?
I cannot see how the Madness lower brace physically attaches via the two rear bolts. Is this brace fastened to the rear LCA bracket bolt? The two bolts toward the front are easy to see.
I cannot find the mid brace fomr GTT on the web...
I cannot see how the Madness lower brace physically attaches via the two rear bolts. Is this brace fastened to the rear LCA bracket bolt? The two bolts toward the front are easy to see.
I cannot find the mid brace fomr GTT on the web...
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,233
Likes: 128
From: San Francisco
Sold here: http://www.gtt.uk.com/brakes.asp
MINI2 thread: http://www.mini2.com/forum/gt-tuning...-1st-pics.html
OldRick's review: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...uct/360/cat/73
MINI2 thread: http://www.mini2.com/forum/gt-tuning...-1st-pics.html
OldRick's review: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...uct/360/cat/73
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 918
Likes: 27
From: Pulaski,NY
meb
Yes both of these braces attach via the LCA bracket bolt. The trapizoid brace goes one step further by also attaching to the sub frame.
I wasn't expecting as much of a change that the GTT Mid Brace made. By attaching using four bolts it really stiffens the frount sub frame nicely.
IMHO try it I think you will be impressed.
Steve
Yes both of these braces attach via the LCA bracket bolt. The trapizoid brace goes one step further by also attaching to the sub frame.
I wasn't expecting as much of a change that the GTT Mid Brace made. By attaching using four bolts it really stiffens the frount sub frame nicely.
IMHO try it I think you will be impressed.
Steve
Madness lower brace or OMP lower brace?
I cannot see how the Madness lower brace physically attaches via the two rear bolts. Is this brace fastened to the rear LCA bracket bolt? The two bolts toward the front are easy to see.
I cannot find the mid brace fomr GTT on the web...
I cannot see how the Madness lower brace physically attaches via the two rear bolts. Is this brace fastened to the rear LCA bracket bolt? The two bolts toward the front are easy to see.
I cannot find the mid brace fomr GTT on the web...
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
...so the GTT mid brace and the Madness trapezoid brace is the way to go?
I have the H-Sport upper strut bar and it does make a subtle difference with the miles on my car...all three should bring the 'feeling' back.
OldRick installed Cabrio braces and I may look into those.
I have the H-Sport upper strut bar and it does make a subtle difference with the miles on my car...all three should bring the 'feeling' back.
OldRick installed Cabrio braces and I may look into those.
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5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 918
Likes: 27
From: Pulaski,NY
meb
Along with the Trapizoid brace and Mid brace I also have a GTT upper brace and the Cabrio braces installed. I am using Ireland fixed camber plates along with the stock JCW suspension and a Tarrrett rear bar on my GP. I use this car for primarily street fun. I am very happy with the way this package is working together. It seems each of these braces has made the NVH better than it was before. The car feels extreemly tight and planted right now with excellent steering imput. I believe the bracing has given the struts the ability to do the job they were designed to do. It's attitude to soak up the bumps and still want to go in a straight line is drastically improved. One of the most annoying glitch's the stock suspension had was when passing, on a road that had a severe crown, the car had a tendancy to want to dart violently as the suspension negotiated the uneven surface. This bracing has eliminated that problem and the steering feel is much more precise.
IMHO there is a huge difference between a good track suspension and a good street suspension and we should all evaluate just what we want our MINI's to be.
I am sure that their are a lot of opinions out there of what people think is the best street suspension but for me this is working out quite well.
Steve
Along with the Trapizoid brace and Mid brace I also have a GTT upper brace and the Cabrio braces installed. I am using Ireland fixed camber plates along with the stock JCW suspension and a Tarrrett rear bar on my GP. I use this car for primarily street fun. I am very happy with the way this package is working together. It seems each of these braces has made the NVH better than it was before. The car feels extreemly tight and planted right now with excellent steering imput. I believe the bracing has given the struts the ability to do the job they were designed to do. It's attitude to soak up the bumps and still want to go in a straight line is drastically improved. One of the most annoying glitch's the stock suspension had was when passing, on a road that had a severe crown, the car had a tendancy to want to dart violently as the suspension negotiated the uneven surface. This bracing has eliminated that problem and the steering feel is much more precise.
IMHO there is a huge difference between a good track suspension and a good street suspension and we should all evaluate just what we want our MINI's to be.
I am sure that their are a lot of opinions out there of what people think is the best street suspension but for me this is working out quite well.
Steve
Last edited by THE ITCH; May 1, 2009 at 08:32 AM.
Agreed - for twisties joy, the combination of these four types of braces makes a HUGE improvement in the pointability and precision of the car.
I now have IE STB, Cabrio diagonal, M-M trapezoidal lower, and GTT lower-mid-braces, and the car feels like it's carved from a single billet. The feel in the wheel, and the line you take is much less sensitive to road condition and crowning, and the car just goes where you point it, without any argument.
Along with various urethane bushings, it's a real pleasure to play with now. IMHO, the M-M trapezoid and the GTT mic-braces together work at least as well as the TSW X-brace, and for less money.
I now have IE STB, Cabrio diagonal, M-M trapezoidal lower, and GTT lower-mid-braces, and the car feels like it's carved from a single billet. The feel in the wheel, and the line you take is much less sensitive to road condition and crowning, and the car just goes where you point it, without any argument.
Along with various urethane bushings, it's a real pleasure to play with now. IMHO, the M-M trapezoid and the GTT mic-braces together work at least as well as the TSW X-brace, and for less money.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,705
Likes: 3
From: Chattanooga, TN
OldRick
Would you recommend swap of OMP lower brace for a MM?
I have the OMP and like it but if the MM is a lot better I have some buying to do.
Thanks
Would you recommend swap of OMP lower brace for a MM?
I have the OMP and like it but if the MM is a lot better I have some buying to do.
Thanks
Agreed - for twisties joy, the combination of these four types of braces makes a HUGE improvement in the pointability and precision of the car.
I now have IE STB, Cabrio diagonal, M-M trapezoidal lower, and GTT lower-mid-braces, and the car feels like it's carved from a single billet. The feel in the wheel, and the line you take is much less sensitive to road condition and crowning, and the car just goes where you point it, without any argument.
Along with various urethane bushings, it's a real pleasure to play with now. IMHO, the M-M trapezoid and the GTT mic-braces together work at least as well as the TSW X-brace, and for less money.
I now have IE STB, Cabrio diagonal, M-M trapezoidal lower, and GTT lower-mid-braces, and the car feels like it's carved from a single billet. The feel in the wheel, and the line you take is much less sensitive to road condition and crowning, and the car just goes where you point it, without any argument.
Along with various urethane bushings, it's a real pleasure to play with now. IMHO, the M-M trapezoid and the GTT mic-braces together work at least as well as the TSW X-brace, and for less money.
I swapped mainly because I hit a medium rock with the OMP brace, and put a crimp in it - gave me an excuse to change to the trapezoidal version, which does indeed work a bit better.
Worth spending another couple hundred if you don't have a ready buyer for the OMP and don't get a price break on the replacement?
Well, maybe if you have a large rock handy to go out and drive over....
Worth spending another couple hundred if you don't have a ready buyer for the OMP and don't get a price break on the replacement?
Well, maybe if you have a large rock handy to go out and drive over....
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 918
Likes: 27
From: Pulaski,NY
rifletch
This is the same thought that Rick and I had. It is definately doable but after adding up all the cost it really wasn't worth it to me. One of these days one of the US vendors will see the light and make one to retail for under $100.
I have purchased several items from GTT and they have excellent quality.
Steve
This is the same thought that Rick and I had. It is definately doable but after adding up all the cost it really wasn't worth it to me. One of these days one of the US vendors will see the light and make one to retail for under $100.
I have purchased several items from GTT and they have excellent quality.
Steve
anybody try this ebay brace? it's half the price of the madness.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mini-...Q5fAccessories
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mini-...Q5fAccessories
It's hard to tell where it attaches from the image, but does not appear to be the same hardpoints where the lower control arms bolt to the frame.
Also, it is flat aluminum stock instead of steel tubing, so is unlikely to resist compression, which is half the utility of a lower strut brace.
Ya get what ya pay for. I'd suggest the OMP brace, if your budget is restricted to under $100.
Also, it is flat aluminum stock instead of steel tubing, so is unlikely to resist compression, which is half the utility of a lower strut brace.
Ya get what ya pay for. I'd suggest the OMP brace, if your budget is restricted to under $100.
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 918
Likes: 27
From: Pulaski,NY
I agree with Oldrick on the flat alluminum trapazoid brace. I do not think that it would be nearly as ridgid.
This style brace is available from three vendors that I know of.
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=309
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/St...t/default.asp?
CS=ireland&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=28270900&Count2=9 45411324&CategoryID=52&Target=products.asp
http://www.masonengineering.net/Subp...iCooperR53.htm
Mason is the mfg for the Madness one and I would not be totally surprised if the also did the one for Ireland.
Steve
This style brace is available from three vendors that I know of.
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=309
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/St...t/default.asp?
CS=ireland&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=28270900&Count2=9 45411324&CategoryID=52&Target=products.asp
http://www.masonengineering.net/Subp...iCooperR53.htm
Mason is the mfg for the Madness one and I would not be totally surprised if the also did the one for Ireland.
Steve
i contacted mason to find out weight difference between the steel and aluminum. It's 4 vs 2 lbs.
i'm feeling to go steel since it's a tad cheaper and wouldn't bend as easily if an accident occurred.
http://www.masonengineering.net/Subp...iCooperR53.htm
Mason is the mfg for the Madness one and I would not be totally surprised if the also did the one for Ireland.
Steve
i'm feeling to go steel since it's a tad cheaper and wouldn't bend as easily if an accident occurred.
http://www.masonengineering.net/Subp...iCooperR53.htm
Mason is the mfg for the Madness one and I would not be totally surprised if the also did the one for Ireland.
Steve
Now the tough choice - black or red?
I've got the same setup as The Itch, except for FSD's on stock S springs, 20mm rear bar (on soft) and urethane LCA bushings front and rear. The car is a delight in our local mountain curvies - very predictable, very controllable.
I've got the same setup as The Itch, except for FSD's on stock S springs, 20mm rear bar (on soft) and urethane LCA bushings front and rear. The car is a delight in our local mountain curvies - very predictable, very controllable.
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
It's hard to tell where it attaches from the image, but does not appear to be the same hardpoints where the lower control arms bolt to the frame.
Also, it is flat aluminum stock instead of steel tubing, so is unlikely to resist compression, which is half the utility of a lower strut brace.
Ya get what ya pay for. I'd suggest the OMP brace, if your budget is restricted to under $100.
Also, it is flat aluminum stock instead of steel tubing, so is unlikely to resist compression, which is half the utility of a lower strut brace.
Ya get what ya pay for. I'd suggest the OMP brace, if your budget is restricted to under $100.
Has anyone every tried these flat aluminum trapezoid bars from eBay? In the abstract, it seems steel tubing is stiffer, but who knows. If you look at the Trapezoid design on the M7, it's aluminum too, and also flat, and people seemed to think the m7 underbrace does a good job.
Last edited by alx873; Sep 2, 2009 at 12:27 AM.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
From: Raleigh, NC
We'll I wanted to chime is once I got a day or two running after installing the MM lower brace and the GTT mid brace. My suspension is dead stock but is being upgraded. I have all of the parts but wanted to put these one before I did the rest.
As others have said the car tightens right up. I, myself, got no extra NVH and actually lost some. The biggest area it seems to be noticed is right under your but forward. That part of the car is, as already described, like a solid piece. The car ride a little smoother and no longer wanders. Even with just the stock struts and coils the entire suspension seems to have woke up. cornering is much improved and seems to have cut back on oversteer a bit.
The squeaks I have in my interior (from my CF downtubes that I have not put felt tape on yet) has gone down quite a bit. I have a steep curb when I back out of my driveway that I have to take at an angle to not scrape. I still hear a creak when three wheels are up and one down but not nearly as much as before. One funny thing I noticed is I used to get a faint vibration in my rearview mirror on the highway that made everything look a little blurry and that is now gone.
I am about to have JCW springs and FSD's installed along with a Minspeed 19mm rear swaybar and Ireland fixed camber plates. Figure that should give me an excellent cross between ride and handling. I am looking at poly bushings but want to make sure not to add NVH back into the car with addressing a couple of areas the bushing fail overtime. My car has 28K on it right now.
As others have said the car tightens right up. I, myself, got no extra NVH and actually lost some. The biggest area it seems to be noticed is right under your but forward. That part of the car is, as already described, like a solid piece. The car ride a little smoother and no longer wanders. Even with just the stock struts and coils the entire suspension seems to have woke up. cornering is much improved and seems to have cut back on oversteer a bit.
The squeaks I have in my interior (from my CF downtubes that I have not put felt tape on yet) has gone down quite a bit. I have a steep curb when I back out of my driveway that I have to take at an angle to not scrape. I still hear a creak when three wheels are up and one down but not nearly as much as before. One funny thing I noticed is I used to get a faint vibration in my rearview mirror on the highway that made everything look a little blurry and that is now gone.
I am about to have JCW springs and FSD's installed along with a Minspeed 19mm rear swaybar and Ireland fixed camber plates. Figure that should give me an excellent cross between ride and handling. I am looking at poly bushings but want to make sure not to add NVH back into the car with addressing a couple of areas the bushing fail overtime. My car has 28K on it right now.
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 918
Likes: 27
From: Pulaski,NY
hunter99
I think your plan is on the right track for a great street ride. This seems to be one of the best kept secrets that a few of us are enjoying. I have only ridden in Mini's with the "X" brace and I think the lower and mid brace do a better job. Old Rick is the only one I know who has had all the different setups on the same car. At some point I hope an American mfg. will copy the mid brace and offer it at a reasonable price.
Once you get the fixed plates and rear bar it will complete your package. Expect to notice a slightly smoother ride when you get the Irelands installed as a side benefit.
As for the poly bushings I have only done the lower motor mount. I can only notice a hint of vibration at idle with the air on. If the air is off I cannot tell that the poly is there. The lower mount worked so well that I removed the TSW damper. I have not changed the transmission mounts to poly at this point and don't know if I will.
Good luck on the rest of your install.
Steve
P.S. Don't forget the Cabrio braces. Cheap money for a little extra stiffnes.
I think your plan is on the right track for a great street ride. This seems to be one of the best kept secrets that a few of us are enjoying. I have only ridden in Mini's with the "X" brace and I think the lower and mid brace do a better job. Old Rick is the only one I know who has had all the different setups on the same car. At some point I hope an American mfg. will copy the mid brace and offer it at a reasonable price.
Once you get the fixed plates and rear bar it will complete your package. Expect to notice a slightly smoother ride when you get the Irelands installed as a side benefit.
As for the poly bushings I have only done the lower motor mount. I can only notice a hint of vibration at idle with the air on. If the air is off I cannot tell that the poly is there. The lower mount worked so well that I removed the TSW damper. I have not changed the transmission mounts to poly at this point and don't know if I will.
Good luck on the rest of your install.
Steve
P.S. Don't forget the Cabrio braces. Cheap money for a little extra stiffnes.
We'll I wanted to chime is once I got a day or two running after installing the MM lower brace and the GTT mid brace. My suspension is dead stock but is being upgraded. I have all of the parts but wanted to put these one before I did the rest.
As others have said the car tightens right up. I, myself, got no extra NVH and actually lost some. The biggest area it seems to be noticed is right under your but forward. That part of the car is, as already described, like a solid piece. The car ride a little smoother and no longer wanders. Even with just the stock struts and coils the entire suspension seems to have woke up. cornering is much improved and seems to have cut back on oversteer a bit.
The squeaks I have in my interior (from my CF downtubes that I have not put felt tape on yet) has gone down quite a bit. I have a steep curb when I back out of my driveway that I have to take at an angle to not scrape. I still hear a creak when three wheels are up and one down but not nearly as much as before. One funny thing I noticed is I used to get a faint vibration in my rearview mirror on the highway that made everything look a little blurry and that is now gone.
I am about to have JCW springs and FSD's installed along with a Minspeed 19mm rear swaybar and Ireland fixed camber plates. Figure that should give me an excellent cross between ride and handling. I am looking at poly bushings but want to make sure not to add NVH back into the car with addressing a couple of areas the bushing fail overtime. My car has 28K on it right now.
As others have said the car tightens right up. I, myself, got no extra NVH and actually lost some. The biggest area it seems to be noticed is right under your but forward. That part of the car is, as already described, like a solid piece. The car ride a little smoother and no longer wanders. Even with just the stock struts and coils the entire suspension seems to have woke up. cornering is much improved and seems to have cut back on oversteer a bit.
The squeaks I have in my interior (from my CF downtubes that I have not put felt tape on yet) has gone down quite a bit. I have a steep curb when I back out of my driveway that I have to take at an angle to not scrape. I still hear a creak when three wheels are up and one down but not nearly as much as before. One funny thing I noticed is I used to get a faint vibration in my rearview mirror on the highway that made everything look a little blurry and that is now gone.
I am about to have JCW springs and FSD's installed along with a Minspeed 19mm rear swaybar and Ireland fixed camber plates. Figure that should give me an excellent cross between ride and handling. I am looking at poly bushings but want to make sure not to add NVH back into the car with addressing a couple of areas the bushing fail overtime. My car has 28K on it right now.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
From: Raleigh, NC
Steve, Thanks for the reply. I actually got a little scared tonight as I went out and when coming back and hitting an odd bump in the road that twisted the car to the left then right at the bottom of a dip I heard a ding. Got home and checked everything out and nothing. Must have been something that hit the inside of the left rear wheel.
I have already put on the cabrio braces and noticed a small improvement at the time. As for the mid-brace it wasn't too terribly priced but if sold in teh US it would be cheaper. The lower poly mount sounds like a way to go. I have the VP Customs Damper and would like try those two together. Dan at Grassroots is out of town right now but when he gets back the rest will be installed. Will give an update once the entire setup is done.
I have already put on the cabrio braces and noticed a small improvement at the time. As for the mid-brace it wasn't too terribly priced but if sold in teh US it would be cheaper. The lower poly mount sounds like a way to go. I have the VP Customs Damper and would like try those two together. Dan at Grassroots is out of town right now but when he gets back the rest will be installed. Will give an update once the entire setup is done.