That is not true, a rear bar is not there to reduce rear grip. The bigger rear bar increases the weight transfer to the outside rear tire (also increases load on the INSIDE front tire) , reducing weight transfer to the outside front tire (and INSIDE rear tire). You are essentially taking some of the work off of the over worked outside front tire and asking the outside rear tire to do more work. This increases total cornering grip by more equally distributing the load.

Jason

 

From someone with a signature like yours, people should take your advice seriously. Thanks for the post!

 

Well said!

 

Didn't Grassroots Motorsports magazine do a full story on sway bars and suspension setup of the R53 for Autox? I remember reading 2 or 3 articles on the subject in their magazine. I believe the author of that article has won quite a few regional championships and possibly the national.

 

I've got the Madness 22mm and I love it. I will say that the concerns/warnings of Oversteer are real. I had the bar set in the middle position for a couple months and then 'moved it up' to the highest/tightest setting. Recently on a VERY spirited drive, the rear end DID come around on me BUT not at all uncontrollably. I was sort of anticipating it to be honest. Still, I'm moving it back to the center position for the Highway and putting it back to the tight setting when I go back to the track...IMO, thats why its there. My advice: if you like driving to the MINI's capabilities, you MUST get a stiffer RSB (any of them). You'll be glad you did.

 

Jason,

Hopefully you don't mind my contribution...meant for others, since your knowledge is pretty steep here.

It is true that during cornering, the inside rear tire may leave the ground. At that point the swaybar will not - essentially - add to more roll stiffness or weight transfer...weight transfer may infact fall off a little - a leap of faith judgment on my part. But, a properly setup and driven mini may still have a lot of grip in this orientation.

I tend to look at swaybars as devices that enhance balance and therefore driver control. Grip may be enhanced up to a point...may even be diminished, but the key for me is giving me more control. I understand grip, with respect to the mini's architecture, as a primary function of tire design/compound. A swaybar and perhaps better camber strength may add to grip in subtle ways.

 

asking the outside rear tire to do more work is taking grip away the good thing about the sway is it does somewhat put weight transfer towards one of the front inner tires increasing front grip but not by much on a stock set-up. there are better ways such as camber to have this effect.

oh ya, and I know its not there to take grip away, but with JUST a rear sway bar thats what you are doing to achieve what I think is unfavorable oversteer.

 

Except, if you register cornering force in G's, you may well find that a front drive architecture like the mini have more potential grip on three wheels than four...so the idea that grip is removed simply because one whell is 'off-line' momentarily is not necessarily true.

You have to separate grip and control. From a setup perspective increasing grip and increasing control may be mutually exclusive goals. Camber, especially up front, can aid grip up to a point only. That this extra grip removes a little understeer is to my way of thinking, secondary but useful.

I would suggest that snap oversteer is the result of either a rear bar that is too large for the driving venue, all other things being equal, or over-zealous driver input.

 

Remember also that cars come from the factory with understeer engineered into them. This is suppose to be safer for the dumb masses of us car buyers out there....so by increasing the rear bar slightly you will be getting closer to neutral handling.

 

this is very true, but it takes a very very small amount of extra rear sway. a rear sway isnt a bad thing so long as its not overdone. and thats what I see way to many people doing

meb put it pretty well.

if it were me looking for sway bars on a nearly stock, or close to stock mini. I would find the smallest sway bar offered and run it on its softest setting. reducing understeer isnt bad, but trying to mock oversteer from a sway is just... wrong

 

I think the main goal of a sway bar as ivan discussed with me. is to lose as much weight transfer as possible (naturally its good to have alittle). the sway bar should help corner exit by planting the tire more offering more grip then.

as far as the tire being off the ground, you are right. I just personally dont see it favorable, exp. when it has happend to me. it makes a skipping feeling if there is any kind of uneven surface where the limit is more sparatic. For what a sway bar is intended for I just think you should do both a front and rear if you go that route and dial out most of the understeer using other methods. while using the sways as fine tuning more so with corner exit. but, thats just me

 

I agree, a swaybar should be used as a fine tune component...but fine tune applied to a street car and a race car is different. In theory, springs first, dampers/shocks second, swaybar third - in that order of decision making. Now, we all know setup is a forward and backward process but we should be thinking in this direction. Adjustable bars make this work a little easier...more adaptable to other changes I should write.

justintime, if your car is skipping, that is one indication that endlinks are binding...if you have rod end links up front and you are driving hard on the track I might have a look at those...Powergrid up front at least

 

yes, they indeed bind. thanks for the infor on the powergrid as I didnt know they were any different than the alta endlinks. I will look into this :tu:

 

If you are having any issues with the ALTA endlinks binding on the front, they may be mis-adjusted or REALLY old, or both. Let me know (PM might bebest or e-mail) and me or my tech dept. can give you details on how to properly adjust them.

As always happy to help if we can! Thanks again!

 

I have an Alta 22mm bar. When I first got it, I set it at the softest setting until I got used to the change in handling. For all intents and purposes, that would be all most people need for street driving in various environments. This past summer, I had it set to the stiffest setting. On perfectly dry and flat roads, I loved it. In hard cornering (track), I felt there was still some understeer. But when the road gets rough or wet, I felt I definitely needed to slow down. When I put the snow tires on next week, I will be backing it down to either the medium or soft setting.

If you don't anticipating tracking or autoX'ing your car, I would think that a 19mm bar is more than adequate.

 

.....or more importantly, if you have or a planning to install camber plates then a 19 should be more than adequate.

 

I totally agree with the camber plate and bar size comment.
I had a 25.5mm hollow bar (about 23mm solid) with no front camber plates and it was good for street and track.
Once I added front camber plates and adjusted much negative front camber I thought that the 25.5 hollow bar too large. I would suggest 19 or 20mm bar if adding front camber plates.

 

My MINI has started to rotate lifting mid-corner w/ the stock suspension set-up(I wouldn't say it happened easily, but it wasn't something I was expecting when the car was stock). I just installed cross coil-overs 2 weeks ago, but my wheel bearing went out and I'm waiting for the new hub to come in... I've wanted to get the Hotchkis 25.4mm Solid bar ever since I saw it I planned to help balance it with a stiff front sway bar. speaking of front sway bars, it seems like they've been somewhat overlooked(no numbers or anything) in this thread (mostly b/c it's not necessary for street driving)... does anyone know of a stiffer front sway bar than the Hotchkis 27mm which only allows a 27% increase over stock stiffness for the front. Hotchkis had a "kit" with their 27mm front paired with their 25.5mm hollow bar, so I figured if I wanted the solid bar, a stiffer front bar would be handy
Note: my MINI is currently my daily driver but I'm planning to make it my designated track day car relatively soon (this is when I'll change the sway bars)
FEDEX truck just pulled up with my new HUB!!!!!!! finally, I can drive something that was made to turn, once again!

 

I’m all about street use, so some of the competition use questions are out of my league, but here are some random experiences. For Autocross in an MCS consider the smaller standard front Cooper bar. A very fast local lady reduced some of her wheel lift & tire spin by using the smaller bar; she also could stay in a less modified class as well. I’ve used a larger H&R front bar with a few different rate rear bars; it was fun, but a well rounded streetable outcome can be achieved addressing the struts. Even though my experience has been on the street, I don’t see how stiffer sway bars can improve upon track handling in any area that quality struts and appropriate springs can’t; if anything one might be trying less bar rather than stiffer, with better struts & springs. When I read the words “fine tune”, the very stiff bars are definitely overreaching any “fine” adjustment.

 

exactly except alittle bigger sway bar is good if it's not overdone. I finally found my stock sway bar in storage. It will be going back on as soon as I get some motivation

 

Grassroots Motorsports article on sway bars: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/lean-less/

 

Hello everyone,

I'm not sure if this was covered during this post, but in my reading I could not find if the topic was adressed. I just installed an H&R 19 mm rear sway bar on my cooper S.(PITA)!!! Anyway, would it be necessary to have a four wheel alignment after this modification?? From what I understane the bar is the same length as the 17mm OEM bar, just thicker. Any advice on the subject would be appreciated!!

 

A sway bar change does not require a re-alignment.

 

Thanks for asking! The alignment really shouldn't be needed. Assuming you get everything back to the way it was

You leave bolts out and you will need more than an alignment

Enjoy the new bar!

 

As a experiment,
This is a guessiment. the dimensions are not exact, bar was in car, no one to hole the dumb end of the tape, But the hole is exactly 1/2 further forward, So a % increase for free. 30 mins with a drill bit and rolox 80 grit disc, here is a link to a calculator that gave me the idea

http://www.buildafastercar.com/tech/...ate-Calculator