Must Read for anyone thinking about modifying their car to i
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Coordinator :: Alabama Motoring Society & South East
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Burning-Ham Alabama
I have been modifying cars for about 12 years now, and it has taken that much time for me to learn everything I now know about this subject. In that time, I have learned that a very well-balanced moderately modified vehicle is superior to the extremely modified vehicle in the vast majority of situations.
Last night, I was in my local bookstore and came across a new book called "High Performance Handling Handbook" by Don Alexander. Despite the fact that it has a Honda on the cover, I bought it after looking at just a few pages.
In one evening of casually looking through this fine book, I have finally understood so many important things abut vehicle physics and dynamics that would take me another lifetime to learn through my own experience.
This book covers all aspects of modifications to improve performance and actually explains the benefits and losses involved with each new mod in a way that a science nerd like me enjoys in a simple, straightforward and honest approach.
The author details project vehicles ranging from Hondas and Subarus to Audi's and VW's.
Easily the best $14 I ever spent, and this should be required reading for anyone who is actually interested in understanding what their mods are going to do before blowing huge amounts of money on coil-overs, exhaust, huge 18" wheels, cold air intakes, etc. Might save a mod-happy guy a LOT of money if he actually understands what he is doing rather than just buying what everyone else seems to be buying and saying such great things about.
Anyway, check it out here: Amazon.com
If I had this book 10 years ago, I would have ended up with higher performance cars as well as saved a TON of money in the process by doing the mods that my cars needed rather than the ones that everyone else seemed to be doing. This book is easily worth many thousands of dollars to anyone serious about performance.
_________________
~Yucca Patrol~
2003 MCS, BRG/W on the truck to my dealer!
"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."
Last night, I was in my local bookstore and came across a new book called "High Performance Handling Handbook" by Don Alexander. Despite the fact that it has a Honda on the cover, I bought it after looking at just a few pages.
In one evening of casually looking through this fine book, I have finally understood so many important things abut vehicle physics and dynamics that would take me another lifetime to learn through my own experience.
This book covers all aspects of modifications to improve performance and actually explains the benefits and losses involved with each new mod in a way that a science nerd like me enjoys in a simple, straightforward and honest approach.
The author details project vehicles ranging from Hondas and Subarus to Audi's and VW's.
Easily the best $14 I ever spent, and this should be required reading for anyone who is actually interested in understanding what their mods are going to do before blowing huge amounts of money on coil-overs, exhaust, huge 18" wheels, cold air intakes, etc. Might save a mod-happy guy a LOT of money if he actually understands what he is doing rather than just buying what everyone else seems to be buying and saying such great things about.
Anyway, check it out here: Amazon.com
If I had this book 10 years ago, I would have ended up with higher performance cars as well as saved a TON of money in the process by doing the mods that my cars needed rather than the ones that everyone else seemed to be doing. This book is easily worth many thousands of dollars to anyone serious about performance.
_________________
~Yucca Patrol~
2003 MCS, BRG/W on the truck to my dealer!
"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 191
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From: Chicago, IL USA
I have read pretty much every mod forum on MCO. However, I cannot remember anyone giving a defintive answer on whether these mods put your warranty at risk.
If no risk is posed, I am defintiely going to look into the JCW upgrade (if workable on the Mini S) once I get my Mini. An extra 37 horses would be nice under the hood......very nice.
If no risk is posed, I am defintiely going to look into the JCW upgrade (if workable on the Mini S) once I get my Mini. An extra 37 horses would be nice under the hood......very nice.
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Coordinator :: Alabama Motoring Society & South East
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 10,170
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From: Burning-Ham Alabama
The MCS is the only car I have ever had a test-drive in that I did not immediatly want to modify. In my case, this is going to be a business vehicle rather than my personal race-car, so I am keeping it stock for now.
I have heard rumors of factory performance upgrades in the near future, and am not going to waste my money voiding my factory warranty if there is a strong chance that BMW will offer upgrades that are designed by real BMW engineers and are fully supported by the dealer.
The only thing that I think a MCS needs is another 35 hp so that the handling of the car matches the power of the engine. Road and Track's slalom course proved that the base model MINI is one of the best handling cars EVER, and so little is really needed to improve upon something almost perfect as is. If a non-supercharged MINI beat all but 4 cars ever on this test track, the MCS is certain to top it when tested in the future. . . .
Of course, when I build a race-car version in a year or so, I will not be so hesitant to go a bit more extreme, but only because the vehicle will be a dedicated track car and not a daily driver, so I will be able to live with some bad manners in exchange for better lap times. . .
_________________
~Yucca Patrol~
2003 MCS, BRG/W on the truck to my dealer!
"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."
I have heard rumors of factory performance upgrades in the near future, and am not going to waste my money voiding my factory warranty if there is a strong chance that BMW will offer upgrades that are designed by real BMW engineers and are fully supported by the dealer.
The only thing that I think a MCS needs is another 35 hp so that the handling of the car matches the power of the engine. Road and Track's slalom course proved that the base model MINI is one of the best handling cars EVER, and so little is really needed to improve upon something almost perfect as is. If a non-supercharged MINI beat all but 4 cars ever on this test track, the MCS is certain to top it when tested in the future. . . .
Of course, when I build a race-car version in a year or so, I will not be so hesitant to go a bit more extreme, but only because the vehicle will be a dedicated track car and not a daily driver, so I will be able to live with some bad manners in exchange for better lap times. . .
_________________
~Yucca Patrol~
2003 MCS, BRG/W on the truck to my dealer!
"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,247
Likes: 6
From: British Columbia-Canada
>>I have read pretty much every mod forum on MCO. However, I cannot remember anyone giving a defintive answer on whether these mods put your warranty at risk.
>>
>>If no risk is posed, I am defintiely going to look into the JCW upgrade (if workable on the Mini S) once I get my Mini. An extra 37 horses would be nice under the hood......very nice.
A definite answer to your warranty inquiry would be that the dealer needs to have proof that the mod you added is the sourse of whatever is wrong with the car. Now some dealers will be sneaky and do whatever it takes to make you pay for it, if you don't know some basic auto mechanical knowledge. They'll try to snow you over. Than the higher up from the manufacturer will shut you out, from what word was given to them by the dealer. Ask your dealer what their take is on modding out a car before hand. Or find a mod-friendly dealer near you.
As for the JCW, no need to worry about risks involved. It'll be covered under the BMW warranty, being that JCW has been into racing/modding Mini's just after they came out with the original. Therer's a bond between the 2, and we get to take advantage of that with a backed up no-worries performance kit. But get ready to pay through the nose for the extra peace of mind with having your warranty in tact. The kit for the Cooper'S' is said to be available sometime after the new year, possibly in Jan. or Feb. '03.
Cheers,
>>
>>If no risk is posed, I am defintiely going to look into the JCW upgrade (if workable on the Mini S) once I get my Mini. An extra 37 horses would be nice under the hood......very nice.
A definite answer to your warranty inquiry would be that the dealer needs to have proof that the mod you added is the sourse of whatever is wrong with the car. Now some dealers will be sneaky and do whatever it takes to make you pay for it, if you don't know some basic auto mechanical knowledge. They'll try to snow you over. Than the higher up from the manufacturer will shut you out, from what word was given to them by the dealer. Ask your dealer what their take is on modding out a car before hand. Or find a mod-friendly dealer near you.
As for the JCW, no need to worry about risks involved. It'll be covered under the BMW warranty, being that JCW has been into racing/modding Mini's just after they came out with the original. Therer's a bond between the 2, and we get to take advantage of that with a backed up no-worries performance kit. But get ready to pay through the nose for the extra peace of mind with having your warranty in tact. The kit for the Cooper'S' is said to be available sometime after the new year, possibly in Jan. or Feb. '03.
Cheers,
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,247
Likes: 6
From: British Columbia-Canada
Thanx Yucca. I'll have to check into that book myself. Might make some interesting reading. But then again, the opinions expressed in that book just like any other, will be that of the author. Too many people I've seen buy a book and do what the author tells them to. Whether it be a health book, etc. Doesn't mean the author knows everything. Just be careful out there. I intend to search through and match up what he says with what knowledge I have as well as what other mechanic friends of mine say about it all.
But I totally agree with not thowing money around trying to get every mod out there. I have buddies who have their import hotrods, always being modded out, just for the sake of saying they added something new. Come dyno time, they usually get screwed. Some mods will not only NOT provide extra power, but actually will rob some from the car. Money thrown out the window.
Should be interesting to see what this author has to say.
Cheers,
But I totally agree with not thowing money around trying to get every mod out there. I have buddies who have their import hotrods, always being modded out, just for the sake of saying they added something new. Come dyno time, they usually get screwed. Some mods will not only NOT provide extra power, but actually will rob some from the car. Money thrown out the window.
Should be interesting to see what this author has to say.
Cheers,
Thread Starter
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Coordinator :: Alabama Motoring Society & South East
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 10,170
Likes: 2
From: Burning-Ham Alabama
Actually, what I thought was great about the book was that it was not really a recipe book for modifying cars according to one particular chef. Instead, it explained how a particular system like a suspension really works under different conditions so that one could choose the right mod for the particular job rather than just assuming that 18" wheels and super hard coil-overs slammed to the ground is the ideal set-up for every modified sportscar in the world.
Depending on your vehicle's performance for a specific purpose, one needs to balance the performance of various systems rather than simply taking them to the most extreme.
Anyway, it is at least a very good primer of quality information backed up with real physical data to help one understand the effect of the mods they do to their cars, and it is a new book so is up to date with modern vehicle systems rather than the books written by race-car drivers in the 70's and 80's. . . .
_________________
~Yucca Patrol~
2003 MCS, BRG/W on the truck to my dealer!
"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."
Depending on your vehicle's performance for a specific purpose, one needs to balance the performance of various systems rather than simply taking them to the most extreme.
Anyway, it is at least a very good primer of quality information backed up with real physical data to help one understand the effect of the mods they do to their cars, and it is a new book so is up to date with modern vehicle systems rather than the books written by race-car drivers in the 70's and 80's. . . .
_________________
~Yucca Patrol~
2003 MCS, BRG/W on the truck to my dealer!
"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."
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Banned
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 164
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From: California
Everybody who has warranty concerns, please read the following MCO warranty info. post which coversThe Magnuson-Moss Act.
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Diamond Mini
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Diamond Mini
3rd Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 290
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From: saratoga ny
Thanks Yucca for the Heads-up.
I do not plan to do much in the way of performance mods but it sounds like the book is a good read for just a person like me. Everyones opinion is welllll like everyones opinion but an informed consumer has the best opportunity to maximize his buying dollar.
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cb
Greta...DS "S", premium, cold, 17s on all seasons, DSC, fogs, lapis blue leather, chrome mirrors
I do not plan to do much in the way of performance mods but it sounds like the book is a good read for just a person like me. Everyones opinion is welllll like everyones opinion but an informed consumer has the best opportunity to maximize his buying dollar.
_________________
cb
Greta...DS "S", premium, cold, 17s on all seasons, DSC, fogs, lapis blue leather, chrome mirrors
pug poo picker-upper
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: California
Originally posted by diamini:
Everybody who has warranty concerns, please read the following MCO warranty info. post which coversThe Magnuson-Moss Act.
Everybody who has warranty concerns, please read the following MCO warranty info. post which coversThe Magnuson-Moss Act.
Originally posted by DiD:
Sorry I gotta disagree. It's not nearly that simple. That's the way the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act should work, but in practice, it just isn't so.
If a dealership decides not to cover a warrenty repair because you modded the car, then as the customer you will be in the right to claim Magnuson-Moss protects you. Being in the right doesn't pay the bills on it's own though. You have to be willing to go the distance to protect your rights as a customer. So, if you want your repair covered after the dealership denies to cover it because of a mod you would have to do one of the following:
(1) hope the dealership rolls over at the mention of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (not likely)
(2) you prove to the dealership via the courts that Magnuson-Moss applies to your particular case and that the modification was not to blame.
Sorry I gotta disagree. It's not nearly that simple. That's the way the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act should work, but in practice, it just isn't so.
If a dealership decides not to cover a warrenty repair because you modded the car, then as the customer you will be in the right to claim Magnuson-Moss protects you. Being in the right doesn't pay the bills on it's own though. You have to be willing to go the distance to protect your rights as a customer. So, if you want your repair covered after the dealership denies to cover it because of a mod you would have to do one of the following:
(1) hope the dealership rolls over at the mention of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (not likely)
(2) you prove to the dealership via the courts that Magnuson-Moss applies to your particular case and that the modification was not to blame.
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 289
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From: Northern VA
If i'm not mistaken, the waranties are usually *limited* warantees. Meaning they usually have the no-performance-mod clause built right into 'em as a way around the act. Oh well. I know BMW does this. It essentially comes down to how cool your dealer is.
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Coordinator :: Alabama Motoring Society & South East
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 10,170
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From: Burning-Ham Alabama
I have heard that Magnuson-Moss warranty act, and although it appears to protect mod-happy car owners, it really does very little other than give you some peace of mind until you have a problem.
Paying an attorney to actually do anything to enforce your rights here is way too expensive, and the car dealers know that. All your local dealership has to do is refuse to work on your vehicle for any reason whatsoever and then you are basically out of luck, period.
This piece of legislation is about as useless as a restraining order in the hands of a crazed fatal-attraction type lover. It is just a useless piece of paper.
Paying an attorney to actually do anything to enforce your rights here is way too expensive, and the car dealers know that. All your local dealership has to do is refuse to work on your vehicle for any reason whatsoever and then you are basically out of luck, period.
This piece of legislation is about as useless as a restraining order in the hands of a crazed fatal-attraction type lover. It is just a useless piece of paper.
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 71
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>>Everybody who has warranty concerns, please read the following MCO warranty info. post which coversThe Magnuson-Moss Act.
>>
>>
>>
>>_________________
>>Diamond Mini
1. In many states (i.e. Florida) the warranty repair pays the dealer exactly the same as retail (Option A) and there is little incentive for the dealer to cheat a customer. Most often, the dealer wants to retain the customer's goodwill and will try to get warranty or goodwill coverage from the Manuf.
2. What the Magnuson-Moss act was written to do was eliminate 'hidden' warranties in which some customers (squeaky wheels in car lingo) would get repairs paid for under warranty that other customers did not. Now it is much harder to get coverage on 'dealer discression' items.
3. The act has created the 'limited' warranty provision you now see in all Manuf. warranties. If you read the act you will see that what actually happened as a result of this 'consumer' legislation is that unless an item is specifically covered under the warranty, the warranty does not apply.
4. The dealer can claim that a modified vehicle is not being used in the manner that was intented by the manufacturer and that as a result of this uncontemplated use, the warranty is no longer valid.
HOW DO I KNOW THIS? you might ask.....As a former new car dealer for over 30 years I have plenty of experience in this. I now testify (both for consumers and manufacturer/dealers) as an expert witness (I charge a lot!) in many matters of this nature. I post here my observations based on the cases I've been personally involved in either as a litigant or defendant.
Motor On
>>
>>
>>
>>_________________
>>Diamond Mini
1. In many states (i.e. Florida) the warranty repair pays the dealer exactly the same as retail (Option A) and there is little incentive for the dealer to cheat a customer. Most often, the dealer wants to retain the customer's goodwill and will try to get warranty or goodwill coverage from the Manuf.
2. What the Magnuson-Moss act was written to do was eliminate 'hidden' warranties in which some customers (squeaky wheels in car lingo) would get repairs paid for under warranty that other customers did not. Now it is much harder to get coverage on 'dealer discression' items.
3. The act has created the 'limited' warranty provision you now see in all Manuf. warranties. If you read the act you will see that what actually happened as a result of this 'consumer' legislation is that unless an item is specifically covered under the warranty, the warranty does not apply.
4. The dealer can claim that a modified vehicle is not being used in the manner that was intented by the manufacturer and that as a result of this uncontemplated use, the warranty is no longer valid.
HOW DO I KNOW THIS? you might ask.....As a former new car dealer for over 30 years I have plenty of experience in this. I now testify (both for consumers and manufacturer/dealers) as an expert witness (I charge a lot!) in many matters of this nature. I post here my observations based on the cases I've been personally involved in either as a litigant or defendant.
Motor On
4th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 495
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From: South Bend, Indiana
I agree that many have followed the crowd when it comes to performance mods. The most important thing to understand is how you intend use and drive the car, not how you wish you can drive, or want others to believe you can drive.
Every modification has a compromise. Balance is the key.
An analogy would be setting up a stereo system. What kind of music will you listen to? How loud? How big is the room?. Why spend big bucks on huge inefficient speakers when all you have is a cheezy amplifier. The same goes for auto performance mods. That is the entire concept behind the MINI's engineering. Small, tight, balanced, with a suspension for the power level. If you do make changes, make incremental changes and note the results. You will save money and be happier with the results.
My $.02
Every modification has a compromise. Balance is the key.
An analogy would be setting up a stereo system. What kind of music will you listen to? How loud? How big is the room?. Why spend big bucks on huge inefficient speakers when all you have is a cheezy amplifier. The same goes for auto performance mods. That is the entire concept behind the MINI's engineering. Small, tight, balanced, with a suspension for the power level. If you do make changes, make incremental changes and note the results. You will save money and be happier with the results.
My $.02
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,265
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From: Dunedin, FL, USA
Looked at the handling book, and it gives lots of great info, but better was the "best sports car under $20,000" shoot-out in the latest Grassroots Motorsports magazine. They give 3 great tips on mods they'd do to the Mini:
Mods suggested by GRMS:
1. 15" tires (they complain that the 17s are way too heavy)
I think I'll stick with my stock 16s
2. Intercooler sprayer (they heat-soaked the MCS's intercooler pretty quick and since there's no room for a front mounted one that would catch more air, water spraying the intercooler is a workaround)
I know lots of WRX owners do this and I'm going to look into building a custom system for the MCS.
3. Limited slip differential (keeps the tires locked up a lot better, especially coming out of corners)
I'd love to install the one minimania is selling, but it's too pricey right now.
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[img]albums/album25/aln.gif[/img] see my MCS at VinceAndJessica.com
Alta 15% pulley, Stebro exhaust, Pipercross intake, Progress 22mm rear anti-sway bar.
Mods suggested by GRMS:
1. 15" tires (they complain that the 17s are way too heavy)
I think I'll stick with my stock 16s
2. Intercooler sprayer (they heat-soaked the MCS's intercooler pretty quick and since there's no room for a front mounted one that would catch more air, water spraying the intercooler is a workaround)
I know lots of WRX owners do this and I'm going to look into building a custom system for the MCS.
3. Limited slip differential (keeps the tires locked up a lot better, especially coming out of corners)
I'd love to install the one minimania is selling, but it's too pricey right now.
_________________
[img]albums/album25/aln.gif[/img] see my MCS at VinceAndJessica.com
Alta 15% pulley, Stebro exhaust, Pipercross intake, Progress 22mm rear anti-sway bar.
Thread Starter
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Coordinator :: Alabama Motoring Society & South East
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 10,170
Likes: 2
From: Burning-Ham Alabama
I think there is a quaife limited slip either already out or nearly ready for release. Would probably be half the price of the previously mentioned one at MM, and a name brand that I known for top notch gear.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,258
Likes: 0
From: Portland OR
>>2. Intercooler sprayer (they heat-soaked the MCS's intercooler pretty quick and since there's no room for a front mounted one that would catch more air, water spraying the intercooler is a workaround)
>>I know lots of WRX owners do this and I'm going to look into building a custom system for the MCS.
Shoot an email to Adam at http://www.altaminiperformance.com . He's finishing up details on a water sprayer for the intercooler. In a recent email he said:
I know I'll be looking into this come the first of the year!!!!
R
>>I know lots of WRX owners do this and I'm going to look into building a custom system for the MCS.
Shoot an email to Adam at http://www.altaminiperformance.com . He's finishing up details on a water sprayer for the intercooler. In a recent email he said:
The kits is nearly finished. We also manufacturer parts for the WRX (www.perrinperformance.com) and we got the idea from parts for it. The kit comes in two parts. One item is a i/c divertor with powder coated finish. The other is a sperate kit that adds an i/c spray tube to the divertor, pump, etc. Estimated MSRP for both items will be $199.99 +-.
R
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,265
Likes: 0
From: Dunedin, FL, USA
>>I think there is a quaife limited slip either already out or nearly ready for release. Would probably be half the price of the previously mentioned one at MM, and a name brand that I known for top notch gear.
Thanks for the tip YuccaPatrol. I'll keep my eye on the Quaife lim slip. GRMS mag mentioned that Quaife was working on one. Seems like the GRMS guys feel the same about Quaife stuff (top notch).
And thanks, Davbret, for the intercooler sprayer info.
Vince
Thanks for the tip YuccaPatrol. I'll keep my eye on the Quaife lim slip. GRMS mag mentioned that Quaife was working on one. Seems like the GRMS guys feel the same about Quaife stuff (top notch).
And thanks, Davbret, for the intercooler sprayer info.
Vince
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