Longtime lurker, and I could use some advice.

3 days ago, I started experiencing some problems with my 2009 Cooper S JCW is currently at 31k miles. Mainly rough idle, reduced power, and surging power (apparent when using cruise control). There had been several start/stop cycles of the car with the problem and no check engine light, so one of the things I did was get some techron additive, and try to do some relatively spirited driving in the hills in the area (an Italian tune up of sorts). After running a few errands, I head home.

The next morning on my commute to work, the check engine light turns on. Since the closest dealer is 85 miles away, I try using MINI Roadside Assistance for the first time, and they send a tow truck to take the car to the dealer.

Just now, the dealer has called me back saying that they were having issues diagnosing the problem, so they had to open a PUMA case, which found that I had over revved the car 24 miles ago (7,080 rpm in 2nd). I'm pretty positive that I didn't mechanically over rev the car during the drive, but I know I brushed up against the limiter for a second or two. Because of the stored over rev, they're denying warranty claims, claiming a possibility of bent valves, and said I'm looking at potentially $5k in work. I had them stop work, but they'd like to charge me for the time that they already spent on it (~$180).

Any ideas on how I should proceed? I questioned the over rev because of the rev limiter, and she said that I should be looking at the tachometer, and not head into the red area on it since the car won't prevent that from happening. I'm a bit flustered and could use some advice.

 

Update on this. A call to 866-ASK-MINI has them siding with the dealer.

The SA left me a message saying that I was 2 quarts (!!) of oil low. My car was in for its 2nd year service 10 days ago, and there are no signs of oil leakage at home, or at my parking sport at work. No low oil warnings were present on the car before it headed to the dealer.

 

I would try a different stealership if you can.... Saying the closest one is 85 miles makes it sound like that dealership is your only choice. I would ask them to show me in the warranty backing up what they are saying. Sounds like bogus to me...

Best of luck

 

This particular dealership would never have been the choice to go to if it were up to me. I've been there twice before, and it was obvious that those who didn't purchase from them were 2nd class citizens. The SA asked me, "So who were you racing?" before informing me about the overrev code and warranty denial.

My preferred dealer for service and maintenance (that I did not buy my car from) is actually 160 miles away (whom I found when calling around for quotes on the JCW engine kit install, during which they actually reduced the install fees since they were able to get it done under the time allotted), and is much more friendly and customer service oriented.

I'm going to see what I can do about getting this escalated, since the whole situation seems drastic from a 500rpm overrev code, regardless of whether or not it was my fault. Are there any alternatives/options besides calling 866-ASK-MINI?

If all else fails, I'll get it towed back home and looked at an (awesome) independent shop in town. They have plenty of certified techs, and I use them for fluid changes between the MINI standard maintenance intervals. Interesting tidbit they told me the last time I was visiting was that they're working on their own solution to timing chain tensioner woes.

 

Maybe there Tech overreved it 10 days ago and if they just did your oil they screwed up on that to thats what I would go with

 

I would just pay for it and tell them that you will see them in court.....I guess the "bas gas" pointing game wasn't working for them......

 

If the dealer just changed your oil ten days ago, then barring any signs of a leak in the engine, I think you have a good case for claiming that they under-filled the crankcase. You're not going to consume two quarts in ten days regardless of how you drive the car.

Since you live so far from the dealer and the over-rev was only 24 miles before the flatbed trip back to the dealer, you can't pin the over-rev on them, but don't let them use the over-rev as an excuse not to actually diagnose the problem you're having. Over-revving the engine can only produce certain types of damage, and you may find out that whatever is causing your problem couldn't have resulted directly from a 500 RPM over-rev.

 

My engine lite came on last week&inspect sticker xspired July!Took car2dealership&was told that intake seal is LEAKING but is covered under warranty.I have27k on 2nd hand07 MCs.I was told that car is 2qt low on oil even after checking it3days ago!I don't know where oil went in3days!

 

it appears that more and more dealers are using the 'over rev' excuse to deny your warranty. not too long ago, there was another member with a jcw who were having similar problem with another dealer.

 

Curious. Does the JCW have a higher red line than the MCS?

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but...

Unless the car has been modified using an aftermarket tune (which was part of the issue with the forum member to whom "cccplus" was referring), I don't see how they can legally deny warranty work because of an over-rev event (if one actually exists -- I'd demand to see the data).

If you have (and have always had) the factory software in the vehicle, and it allowed an over-rev event, then MINI's rev limiter failed to perform its function properly and that's MINI's problem, not yours; they need to fix their rev limiter software -- and your engine.

Being an engineer myself, I can tell you with some authority that any operating limit that is set (in this case, engine speed) is not the value at which total (or even partial) failure will result. There is always a margin of safety involved, and in this case, you should be able to operate the engine within that small window beyond the indicated operating limit (7,000 RPM) without any damage. And the factory rev limiter software is there to ensure that you stay within that narrow window.

I don't believe so; I think 7,000 RPM is standard across the board, but I'm not looking at my tachometer at the moment to see where the red markings are.

In any case, page 48 of my 2009 Owner's Manual states the following (referring to the tachometer):

That implies to me that their software is a fail-safe, in case you carelessly bump up against the engine red line. If you want to get really legalistic with them, you could point out that nowhere in their Owner's Manual does it warn that engine damage could or will result if the rev limiter (i.e., this fuel-interruption scheme) is invoked. In fact, it implies the opposite...

Hope this helps! Good luck!

 

It sounds like MINI can reverse its position if another dealership sees this whole situation differently. Can anyone recommend a friendly dealer in the Los Angeles area?

Looking at MINI Roadside Assistance information, it seems that I could have picked another dealer within 50 miles of the nearest dealer. So if they're willing and able to move the car for me, it opens up a half dozen more options for me.

 

You're forgetting one thing - the rev limiter software isn't capable of (or designed to) protect from an over-rev **when the wheels are driving the engine, rather than vice-versa**. In other words, if you're cruising along at 80 MPH and then shift into second gear and dump the clutch, the ECU will record the over-rev, the engine will probably grenade itself, and there's not a darn thing the rev limiter can do about it. Sure, it'll cut fuel to the engine as it approaches redline, but it can't physically stop the engine RPM from continuing to increase.

 

I wasn't necessarily forgetting that, but the OP didn't really elaborate on how the alleged over-rev may have occurred; just that MINI is telling him that it was over-revved to 7,080 RPM within the last 24 miles. So I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't a scenario like you're describing.

But you're correct: doing those kinds of things would tend to override any protection afforded by the rev limiter, and would invite engine damage. However, for damage to occur by doing what you're describing (over-revving on a downshift), you'd still have to exceed the margin of safety designed into the engine, which I'm willing to bet is quite a bit higher than a ~1% over-rev (7,080 RPM for a 7,000 RPM red line).

Honestly, I don't know what MINI's margin on the engine speed is; but in engineering, 1% is a pretty thin tolerance... No manufacturer cuts things that closely in the consumer market... (Unless, perhaps, they want to wiggle out of a warranty claim...)

 

Oh, I agree with you totally that the over-rev probably isn't the source of his engine troubles. That's why I reminded him earlier not to let the dealer use the over-rev as an excuse to stop diagnosing the engine problems.

My main point is that trying to claim that an over-rev is the fault of a defective rev limiter is going to be a non-starter. All MINI has to do is say the the driver gooned up a downshift and that explains the over-rev without any of the car's software being faulty.

 

Well, that is true, I suppose. Unfortunately, one can't stop an unscrupulous service shop from dragging an owner caught up in this situation into a "he said-she said" argument over how a slight over-rev event may have occurred...

At best, only one side (the driver) knows the truth; the other side (the service provider) is engaging purely in speculation... But the argument goes 'round and 'round nonetheless...

 

I'm still trying to get a hold of the SA that's there today. I wanted to see if there was any sign of oil leak, and have them explain the loss of 2 quarts of oil within a 7 day span.

From my conversation with them yesterday, because they're invalidating my warranty, that any additional diagnostic/discovery would come at non-trivial costs to me. I'm still trying to figure out if they are any other dealers within the area willing to take a look at this.

 

The OP was having problems with the car way before the alleged overrev incident occurred. The things he described don't sound like a HPFP issue. If in fact the oil level was 2 qts. low and they had changed it only 10 days before I think that's good evidence of a dealer error. The "overrev" issue is blowing smoke. Error in downshift going from 6th to 2nd instead of 4th) would overrev much more than 80 rpm. I'd move the car to a different dealer if they persist in blaming you. Just my .02. (I assume it's a manual tranny)

 

Concur!

 

there's more complication when that dealer invalidated op's warranty. that mean now it's in mini computer system and other dealers will definitely see it.

 

Update on this: Spoke with the service manager where I had my last service, and it looks like they're going to step up and fix the problem. Nothing's final, and we're still trying to figure out how to get my car to their location, but things are starting to look a lot more positive. It sounded like they were surprised at Customer Relations stance on this issue, so they're making calls on their end to rectify the issue.

Still waiting to hear back on the final outcome. Knock on wood...

 

Absolutely, positively contact a lawyer if they give you any more s... They may normally be parasites but this is one case where they might actually be useful. Even a letter from a lawyer threatening legal action should get their asses in gear.

 

IMHO your first step if pondering this route (and it appears OP is actaully seeing progress so this is just an editorial comment) I recommend that your first step should be to get out your service and warranty book - which came with the car - and ensure that you are following or have followed the steps outlined therein for raising issues about warranty to MINI paying attention to special clauses for some states.

I'm no lawyer but I'd expect the first 'legal' reply to a complaint to be "if the buyer had followed the process as explained in . . . ."

And b4 that there is the factual, non-threatening letter outlining the FACTS (better if there is some supporting documentation) sent to the service manager and owner of the dealership - with proof of delivery documentation (registered mail) and registered copies to MINI corporate (you can get addresses in the book I mentioned). Your letter should clearly state what you seek as resolution and a desired reply date prior to your initiating any other action.

It has worked for me in the past . . . actually EVERY time I've taken the time to go this route I got everything I asked for and more - but this was not with MINI so ....

 

I don't have any good news to report. I received a call from the service manager that thought that they'd be able to help me out in this situation.

From his information gathering, it seems that the engineer that was sent to the dealership that the car currently is at, is able to pull additional information that the normal techs at dealerships aren't privy to. This information is what the engine warranty denial is based upon, and the service manager is basically saying that at this level of involvement, his hands are tied, and that there's really nothing further that he can do.

I'll be picking up the car tomorrow, and trying to get a copy of the diagnostics that were pulled from the car. The service manager was interested in seeing the contents of that report (as am I), and seeing if he could provide any helpful information based on that. If I had knowingly abused the car outside of the MINI specifications, then I wouldn't be upset and I'd accept responsibility for my actions. However this level of response to the symptoms I described doesn't seem balanced at all.

 

I dont know about that. If they wanted to give my more S, I might have to find out what color and options then roll with it.........lol