>>>>Ants, what about the new cars on the lot? Have you (or the other dealership folks) seen any negative customer reaction when they test drive an MCS in this 98 degree heat? I'm just thinking as I said above that this boggy performance and stumble must be a killer as far as MCS sales go. How do you MA's explain that?

 

Smarty pants question here...Do we switch forums again once we get to 6 pages?

I just did something I may regret later but at the moment see no downside to. I just made an appointment for this coming Tuesday to get my programming... erm...re-programmed.

As I say, hopefully no downside as I currently have no get up and go off the line.

Dealer tried all of the aforementioned excuses...Do I know how to shift properly, what gas am I running...etc...etc.

Wednesday is my birthday. I'd love to leave several feet of tire marks as a personal birthday gift to myself. Only way it's going to happen at the moment is to slam on the brakes.

Ken

 

I'm not so sure if the problem is really that temperature sensitive. I am in the Chicago area and I have had my car since 4/03. he car and I have been through the mid 90's temp the past few days and some cool nights earlier this year and I think it's the same. The only obvious thing is that any car will perform better with cooler air, right? But perfoming better and stumbling are two different things. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get the stumble on matter what, I just have to self compensate for the short coming.

BTW, I will go and test drive a dealer vehicle in the next day or so and see if it happens, I'm sure nobody test driving a new car expects to have such problems so I don't think many of us paid close attention, with or without the a/c on.


Peter

 

>>
>>In the past two weeks, my car has felt like a DIESEL (in terms of acceleration) at anything below 2500rpm. I have often found myself completely flooring the accelerator at these low rpms and I get a phhhhhhtttttttt pickup. But of course, once it gets over about 2500rpm and the supercharger kicks in, I fly.
>>

This is my car lately too. I feel like I need to give it way too much gas to get it going at all from a complete stop, then all of a sudden it kicks in and I'm burning rubber! (have I forgotten how to drive?!) It is a 10/02 build MCS (no mods, no software upgrade). It is slow to start...cranking a bit longer than I would hope on initial start-up. While it is warmer now, I never use AC when I'm starting up or anticipating a need for some power, so that's not the problem. I don't know how to define them, so I don't know if I have a stumble, a bog, or anything at all. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. Today it stalled right after starting and running for only a couple seconds. I'm afraid to take it to the dealer - I don't want it to get worse! For now I'm just driving with a lead foot on the gas.

 

McKinneyMini:

Instead of all of us jumping around to a half dozen forums searching for stumble discussions, why don't we combine them all into one? I nominate you (being the inside man that you are) to gather all of the other discussion folks into a single thread...

Cheers!

 

I'm all for efficiency in posting, but here's why I started another thread on this...

1) The previous thread was diving deeper into a discussion of the stumble specific portion of this problem, and frankly, while I have the stumble, I think that the low-end performance deficit is somewhat different and equally annoying as the stumble per se.

2) I had a feeling (and this has proven to be true) that the other thread in the Performance Modifications forum was being missed by folks who don't have an interest in modifications...and I think that this problem is actually one which is troublesome to those of us without modifications. I almost launched this thread in MINI Talk to garner the most attention. (or maybe it should have been Off Topic )

Now that we have everyone's attention -- at least for the moment -- I do think that some sort of combining would be nice...but I also don't think that's technically possible. Right Dave?

So somewhat unfortunately, we now have at least three threads (this one, the Stumble thread, and the Low-End Grunt thread) about this problem. Even more if we count the AC Sucks and DSC/Not DSC threads. If you read 'em...they're all related to this same issue.

 

I don't care how many threads we have as long as we get this damned thing fixed. I've checked all three threads 5 or more times today.

Now did I make a mistake by making the appt for the dealer to do something to my car when in all likelyhood they don't have the answer yet? And while I'm at it, how do I know what I have at the moment, a 33.1, a 33.2 or a 3309.05? Is it written on the frame somewhere? Built 1/03 delivery 2/03. And how do I know what version they will "upgrade" me to on Tuesday?

Oh, and shall I post this in all 3 threads so I don't miss people who are mechanically inclined but don't have any interest in performance mods, AC or dsc problems?

God I'm in a bad mood.

Thanks for any help.

Ken

 

>>McKinneyMini:
>>
>>Instead of all of us jumping around to a half dozen forums searching for stumble discussions, why don't we combine them all into one? I nominate you (being the inside man that you are) to gather all of the other discussion folks into a single thread...
>>
>>Cheers!

Well it seems that JSUN has a point, the stumble is not a performance mod, nor is it the result of a performance mod. It's a beneath the bonnet thing. I could post over there on the main stumble thread that everyone come over here but I'll bet you that won't stop people posting there. Oh and another thing, it's not my thread, it's DK23's and I kinda think he likes his thread the way it is. I got an email from him tonight about this thread starting up. Dilutes the message to MINI if they bother reading this stuff.

 

OK I just completed round one of my stumble testing designed to prove that we are being kept in the dark and being fed a line off bull$hit by MINI. A cold front swung into Texas this evening and the temp dropped into the 70s for the first time since I had the dreaded upgrade. I'm here to tell you it's not the freakin' heat that's causing this. The car stumbled like it alsways does.

Part two of my test involves figuring out where I can get a truly excellent tank of gas. Does anybody know the closest place to Dallas where I can get 93 octane pure, not messed with gasolene? Doesn't sound too much to ask. Then I want drive this perfect tank of gas back to my air, my heat, my altitude, etc. and prove that MINI is wrong about that too. The car will still stumble $ to a hole in a donut.

I had a stroke of brilliance this afternoon driving by the airport. Avgas! That's got to be the best gas. Unfortunately they don't have unleaded :smile:

You know what this must be driving me crazy to get ideas like that!

 

Ken, to answer several of your questions...

1) The only way (I know of or have ever seen posted) to tell exactly what version of the ECU/DME control software you currently have is for your service dept to verify the version via their OBD hookup.

2) What version you have depends on the build date of your car (assuming it's never been upgraded subsequent). If your car was built this spring, you probably have version 33.x. Most of the 2003 models (9/02 to late winter 2002early spring 2003) have version 32. Prior to that, it was a mixed bag of 31 and 32. IF I could guess, I'd guess that you have 33. It'd be nice to know exactly when the software versions changed, but of course MINI won't tell us that (and the kids on the phone don't have a clue).

3) If you get upgraded to the most current version -- 33.2 -- it is likely to make your problem worse if you have version 32. If you already have 33, then it may have no impact, negative impact, or perhaps might make things better (if there was a problem with the initial software load, as X2Board reported was the case with his car). So, strictly speaking, the odds are that it will make things WORSE or make no difference at all. I wouldn't do it if I were you...until you hear that there's definitely an "improved" software release. Which is what McKinneyMini is all about finding out. :smile:

 

Graham, I see your -- and apparently DK23's -- point. But as I said above,
All of these discussions come down to the same point...that is, there's SOMETHING WRONG with the DME programming on late model MCSs and those with late-model/version DME software which is responsible for POOR LOW END PERFORMANCE, and furthermore, this has gotten dramatically worse for most of us now that the weather has warmed. (Sorry for shouting) That's what MINIUSA needs to hear and understand. I know you're working on getting them to hear this, and I applaud you!!

In the meantime, without some very heavy-handed moderation (which thankfully IMO in most cases MCO doesn't have), I doubt that we can pull together all of the various threads that in fact deal with this topic. Besides, we all know that MINIUSA isn't reading any of this stuff unless you first call them up and tell them to.

 

>>I'm not so sure if the problem is really that temperature sensitive. I am in the Chicago area and I have had my car since 4/03. he car and I have been through the mid 90's temp the past few days and some cool nights earlier this year and I think it's the same. The only obvious thing is that any car will perform better with cooler air, right? But perfoming better and stumbling are two different things. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get the stumble on matter what, I just have to self compensate for the short coming.
>>
>>BTW, I will go and test drive a dealer vehicle in the next day or so and see if it happens, I'm sure nobody test driving a new car expects to have such problems so I don't think many of us paid close attention, with or without the a/c on.
>>
>>
>>Peter

That's exactly it. My first test drive was all giggles, the second (in my own, just-delivered, unprepped) was horrifying.
I came back, tested another off the lot and had the same reaction. I bought it anyway figuring if I can't modify it away, I'll trade it in for an M-Coupe.

 

>>
>>>>
>>>>In the past two weeks, my car has felt like a DIESEL (in terms of acceleration) at anything below 2500rpm. I have often found myself completely flooring the accelerator at these low rpms and I get a phhhhhhtttttttt pickup. But of course, once it gets over about 2500rpm and the supercharger kicks in, I fly.
>>>>
>>
>>This is my car lately too. I feel like I need to give it way too much gas to get it going at all from a complete stop, then all of a sudden it kicks in and I'm burning rubber! (have I forgotten how to drive?!) It is a 10/02 build MCS (no mods, no software upgrade). It is slow to start...cranking a bit longer than I would hope on initial start-up. While it is warmer now, I never use AC when I'm starting up or anticipating a need for some power, so that's not the problem. I don't know how to define them, so I don't know if I have a stumble, a bog, or anything at all. Maybe I'm just being paranoid. Today it stalled right after starting and running for only a couple seconds. I'm afraid to take it to the dealer - I don't want it to get worse! For now I'm just driving with a lead foot on the gas.

I know what you mean and I think it has something to do with the drive by wire. I remember reading that they have 2 potentiometers for error checking and as a result, you can never have a wide open throttle. I'd imagine the same is true for starting accelerating. This would cause a brief hesitation at first because it doesn't think you are really accelerating. Anyone elses thoughts on this?
-Chris

 

No kidding mine has got to be such a dog that I got beat by a beater Nissan Quest Van yesterday for the first 100 feet! I've been driving a clutch for 35 years and Porsches for the last 15 so clutch use isn't my problem. I have a late April 03 build MCS w/no upgrades and it is hot (85+) in Northern Virginia. The problem seems to be getting worse all the time. A/C use does not appear to make any difference. The gas may be different but it isn't affecting my other 2 cars.

I still love the car...... but hope they fix the problem soon. I haven't bothered the dealer with it because if they can't solve the problem for you all, they aren't going to solve it for me.

 

A solution may be near!

From shkeller55 on the http://www.MINI2.com website:

With any luck, a solution is within reach!

 

Minihopeful, that's an interesting post...and it confirms something that X2Board said earlier in this thread (or perhaps one of the others on the subject). That is, his 33.2 upgrade was done "incorrectly" the first time and once he revisited the dealer and had a re-install, it worked better.

Now, why it would be that incorrect or partial installs are possible, I couldn't guess. I mean, what, do they forget to insert one of the floppies? (joke)

Anyhow, this sounds like useful info. One thing that does concern me is the bit about "impacted VIN numbers". That would seem to imply that MINI has some notions on who should be or should not be impacted by this. I'm thinking that that's goofy since this could happen to ANYONE who has had their DME software upgraded. All MINI knows about is what your car (by VIN) left the factory with...they really don't have any idea what has happened subsequent. Geeze, I've had my software upgraded twice since my car was built.

 

Thanks minihopeful, I just found this thread and was going to post a link. Here it is if anyone wants to read further:

http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...086#post423086

If you don't want to read through all of it... I live in Atlanta and they sent my ECU off to New Jersey to have it fixed. Took 4 days to do it.

 

I really hope this is the final solution! The affected VIN number's can not only be those affected from the factory, but those with subsequent software upgrades.

I'm sure they enter your VIN number into the computer when the upgrade is performed, hopefully they don't make a "human error" :smile:

Paul Mullett from the MINI2 board has stated that every S he has driven has the stumble in one form or another. So it appears that there are quite a few MINI's out there with the software problem.

Just hope this is the end of the problem and everyone can get back to enjoying their cars!

 

Hey guys, looks like this stumble issue really bites, but I gotta tell you, I haven't seen the stumble in my car and my car cranks the first time every time. Is this something that occurs after you've had the car awhile? Mine is an MCS no mods with June '03 delivery and I've got >1250 miles on it. I use the premium unleaded at differing gas stations (Sams, HQ, Albertsons, Shell, etc). It squeals the tires in 1st and 2nd gear when I get on it. I live in TX were it's pretty hot and the AC is usually running. Of course, when the weather is cooler and the AC is off, it's much quicker, but I can't say I've been experiencing the stumble isssue. Sorry, hopes this helps in deciphering the issue.

 

1) What's your impression of low end performance?

Bites the big one. Embarrassingly slow on takeoff, lurches, makes me look like I've never driven a stick. (disclaimer: this IS my first stick, but I've had two friends--both experienced--drive Ollie and they had the same issues. Additionally, I can drive both of their cars, a Jetta Wolfsburg and 325i, without incident. So I know for a fact it's not me). Once he gets up around 2k-2.5k rpms, then we're good to go, but below that is just ridiculous.


2) Has your car "changed" in terms of performance with the advent of warmer weather?

My car's definitely been getting worse. I had 33.1 upgraded to 33.2 to rectify the cold start/stumble. This was done in mid May which, in Pitt. was exceedingly chilly, so I'm not sure about the whole temp aspect. I noticed an INCREASED stumble as I drove it off the lot, but figured I'd give me some time to decipher clutch technique in case the upgrade tweaked performance, as it should have. 2k miles later, the problem was el biggo, and my cold start had come back. Now requires 2 cranks in the morning and passengers must hold on for the initial 1st gear engagement, lest they fly through the windscreen.

3) Have you had your software upgraded and/or what's your build date?

See above for upgrades. Build date 20 December 2002, for '03 model year, of course.

4) Do you notice your air conditioning having a negative impact on power/acceleration?

A/C makes me and the car want to die. If I don't bring the revs waaaaaaay the hell up then I can pretty much fully release the clutch, floor the accelerator and the car will stand still for the first 2 seconds. As someone else said, once I get up around 2500rpms I fly.

* * * * *

It seems as though 3 people could ask MINIUSA for feedback pertaining to this problem and get 3 totally dofferent answers in return: temp, gas, improper installation, hardware/software combo... what the hell??? If they don't know yet, that's one thing. But they may as well not fish for answers just to appease us. I, personally, would rather know that they're still trying to figure it out as opposed to speculating out the wazoo on 60 different threads in 40 different forums (not being a doofus, here, I support the forum change).

Anyway... arg.

 

PS... ants, you're an MA... how are you dealing with potential customers test driving the demos? Are they having the same issues?

 

I posted what I believe may be a 'workaround' to the dreaded stumble at the end of the original Stumble thread in Performance Modifications. I am wondering if anyone would be willing to try it to see if the results are similar?

Raven

 

FYI, I have a 5/02 build Cooper S which I believe has its original software and I have the following problems:

1) AC ON: The car is really hard to get going off the line. It has almost stalled on me at least twice and once really leaving me dangerously in the middle of a street.

2) Regardless of AC state: Car will not accelerate smoothly with full throttle between 2K and 2700 rpms.
It is as if either the ECU is retarding timing or the ECU programming is brain-dead.

3) As it gets hotter and when the car is not moving, I get really miserable power of the engine.

What am I planning to do about this:

To solve 1 & 2, I am waiting for the Jim Conforti programmer (Shark Injector) to come out. I am a BMW racer and have had BMWs for a while and if there is something wrong with the maps, Mr. Shark will fix it. If it is the actual embedded code in the controller, then he may be able to fix it depending on how this thing is coded (yes, I am a software engineer too).

#3 is harder, since it requires a better intercooler (ideally water-to-air type).

I am also planning on reporting 1 & 2 to NHTSA as a safety issue. This should really be fixed before one of us gets under a truck and dies.

Anyone here have access to MINIUSA. It would be nice to get this addressed without involving lawyers and regulators.


>>Graham, I see your -- and apparently DK23's -- point. But as I said above,
>>>>All of these discussions come down to the same point...that is, there's SOMETHING WRONG with the DME programming on late model MCSs and those with late-model/version DME software which is responsible for POOR LOW END PERFORMANCE, and furthermore, this has gotten dramatically worse for most of us now that the weather has warmed. (Sorry for shouting) That's what MINIUSA needs to hear and understand. I know you're working on getting them to hear this, and I applaud you!!
>>
>>In the meantime, without some very heavy-handed moderation (which thankfully IMO in most cases MCO doesn't have), I doubt that we can pull together all of the various threads that in fact deal with this topic. Besides, we all know that MINIUSA isn't reading any of this stuff unless you first call them up and tell them to.

 

Still have COLD START problem!

I just did my first cold start since getting the car back from the dealer Monday (where the valet started it cold before bringing it to me). I still have the cold start problem. The stumble is still completely gone though, and it seems to have plenty of power in 90 percent humidity, 70 degree (F) weather, driving without the A/C on. I told the dealer this morning that, as long as the car continues to start on the 2nd try, and as long as I have no other trouble (see list in this post: http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...954#post424488), I'll live with it until the new software release comes out.

At least with the stumble gone I can resume teaching my teenage son how to drive a clutch.

So I'm part-way back in the boat with everyone else. I'll keep my fingers crossed that nothing else goes wrong. Signing off now so I can go knock on wood.

 

^^ You had 33.2 re-installed?