I've been running pretty well in the Indianapolis and Columbus regions in Indiana this year so far. I even went over to Illinois and beat the RX8 that was their overall champion on PAX for 2009 in the Central Illinois region. Hope everyone else is having a fun year! I just had to replace the crankshaft pulley due to the damper deciding that it didn't like to be attached anymore.

Joel Harleman
13 STX - 05 JCW

 

congrats! and may the force remain with you...



Charlie

 

Charlie, did you happen to talk to the MINI driver that came in 2nd in SMF?

Oh and congrats on doing the nationals.

 

Yes, if that was the lovely blue Works car -- but I didn't realize the car had done that well. Wow! Good for them. I spoke with them on Monday.

 

So who says the Works Cooper cannot run with the big dogs?

Top PAX and another class win up here with the NER suggests otherwise.

All it takes is appalling conditions (rain, 40 degrees), the right course, the right tires for the day, and a metric ton of luck.

Every dog has it's day I guess, if one waits long enough...

I'm half tempted to retire, but naaahhh -- that wouldn't be fun now would it?

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Congrats, Charlie. Top PAX in the MINI is awesome.

David

 

Top PAX. Way to go!

 

Wow - another STX Works Cooper! Cool.

For the next NER event we shall have no less than three, four if you count a tweaked "S". I'm delighted to see it.

 

Houston - we have a problem...

Yesterday on a dry course at 70 degrees the new (unshaven) R1Rs that served so well on the cold and rainy Devens course had a bad day.

Not only were they vague and lacked the grip of the RS3 and Z1 that my dear competitors brought, they started to self destruct!

On a 30 second course which featured a long (4 sec duration) right hander the left front started to de-laminate, creating a ring of sticky rubber adorned with a fringe of fragments located about .5 to 1.0 inches from the outside shoulder.

I started with 38 pounds of pressure, and seeking more grip moved downwards during the day to reach a final pressure of 36 pounds.

The tires were not rolling over, and as I run -2.5 degrees of camber I don't think the chassis treated them unkindly.

As I watched this occurrence during the day I took care not to over drive them - keeping the slip angles as low as I could during my runs.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained I guess - but I am unwilling to sacrifice the rest of the season by running on what now appear to me to be world class rain tires. From here on out we are most likely to see more dry, and more heat, and that bodes ill.

Perhaps it's time to go back to the Direzzas...

Cheers,

Charlie

Ps: it may be the case that I've one tire that simply had issues during the manufacturing process - the other three showed no such symptoms.

 

So when one buys what are essentially competition tires, for competition purposes, caveat emptor is a good expectation.

But not in this case, which warrants a shout out for very good business practices.

The fresh set of R1Rs that went on for the 23rd weren't round - and the crew at Town Fair joined me in a two hour episode of rotation, re-balance, and test to get the roundest ones on the front axle. After the 2nd re-balance I joined one of their techs to observe the "hop" or radial runout that was evident to varying degrees in all four tires. On the 3rd try the vibration at highway speed was less evident, and all of us were tired of the effort, so I undertook to use the tires for a bit and see if they calmed down with some road miles on them.

After the 23rd, I thought the trade-off would be tolerable. However at NHMS with dry conditions and only about 68 degrees of heat the left front started to delaminate beginning at a point about one half inch from the outer shoulder. Varying pressures, and reducing the slip angles on the right hander as best I could had no visible effect as the outermost layer of rubber continued to separate - progressing towards the center of the tire on each successive run.

This week I discussed the issue with Danny, and showed him the odd wear pattern which affected only the left front. I even took to my practice area and spent ten minutes deliberately pushing the car a bit counter-clockwise to see if the RF would develop the same symptoms, which it did not.

The end result is that Danny is reaching out to Toyo, and to his regional management, and is more than meeting me half way in solving this problem. I shall be returning to the Direzza at 205 after this unhappy experiment, and although I shall have to put some more money into the deal it will not hurt nearly as much as I had feared.

That Town Fair are willing to push this hard given the nature of the tires and their use has made a very positive impression on me, and I'm delighted to continue doing business with them. This is the first problem I've had, and their approach to helping is exemplary.

Apart from the quality issues, which I think are very unusual for Toyo, the other lesson I've learned is that for my car with the 7" rims there is no 225 that will outperform the Direzzas. Given the level of competition I face this year I am not prepared to run "Plan B" for even one more event, so I shall pony up my contribution to the fix and hopefully keep the battle as close as possible for the remainder of the year.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Just a further word on this situation - which is to Toyo's credit.

Danny at Town Fair called Customer Service at Toyo, and explained the two issues: (1) the radial run out, and our inability to get acceptable balance, and (2) the very unusual wear on the LF after the NHMS event.

Candice from Toyo Customer Service explained that once the tires had been in competition, that Toyo no longer had the option of exercising their "Good Will" policy to correct satisfaction issues arising from a new set of tires.

Danny was then left with only the options that Town Fair themselves could exercise as a means of avoiding my loss of a rather significant sum of money. Danny indicated that he would find as much leeway as he could, and most certainly if I wished to revert to the Direzzas he would waive any labor charges at an absolute minimum. I've no doubt of his sincerity, and appreciate his efforts quite a bit.

I was curious myself though, so I called Toyo directly and spoke with Debbie. I identified myself as an autocrosser and an SCCA member, and pointed out that I ran the R1R in 2009 and found it an excellent choice in all regards. I then explained the two issues in time order - first the matter of roundness, and subsequently the de-lamination arising from competition use.

Debbie was a pleasure to speak with - open minded and understanding of my problem, in light of the intended use of the tires both in daily driving and in autocross.

She explained that the matter of roundness and our difficulty in balancing the tires could have been handled immediately using Toyo's warranty process - at any time within the first 1/32 of tread wear. She further stated that once a tire is used in competition, defects that may appear are assumed to be the owner's problem - which I find quite reasonable indeed.

Given however that I've only 1,000 miles on the tires since their purchase on 4/20, she volunteered to call Danny and determine whether in his opinion the balancing problem could be separated as an issue that existed prior to any racing use, and to advise him that if that was the case he could request replacement of up to three of the four tires installed even at this point in time.

If as I expect, this results in Danny having the option to replace the two front tires, this would allow me to eliminate the vibration and also presumably to restore my confidence for further competition with respect to unusual wear.

So we shall see - but I wished to share Toyo's response to this situation as I believe it is to their credit, and reflects a sensible approach to standing behind a product which sees normal road use, but also the harsh conditions resulting from competition. I was starting to doubt their sincerity, and I believe I might have been hasty in doing so.

Kind regards,

Charlie

 

Question... Any particular reason why you are using 15x7s? As opposed to, say, 8s or 9s?

I am in the process of shopping for wheels/tires for STX, and am planning on 15x8s with 225/45/15 R1R or RS3s. I would like to go with a 15x9 in the front, but am not sure they will fit.

Just curious...

 

I have not as yet been able to find a 15x8 at +40 or +42. Alex @ Tirerack offered the Enkei at +35 but that dog won't hunt. All suggestions greatfully received!

Note the deformation of the sidewall, and the displacement of the contact patch on the LF - Photo courtesy of Ed Savage (thanks Eddie). This is at 38 lbs!

Kind regards,

Charlie

 

Why the need for +40-42mm offset?

The 15x8 6UL is a +36mm and still requires a small(3mm or so) spacer to clear the rear trailing arm.

 

it's an '04, which uses +48 stock rims. now running +38 with adequate clearance on the inner face, and a rub on the outer edge (rear only) at about 10 and 2 on the clock face.

I just spoke to 949 Racing, and they do have a +36, but that's 2mm in the wrong direction.

The -6 mm shims are hard to get, although I did ask at http://kalecoauto.com just to make sure.

If you can point out that I need a cerebral rectectomy with these calculations you'll make me a happy man - sometimes that happens.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Two updates:

1. JamesL I now see your point - I finally found a lift and checked rim to trailing arm clearance on the back end, and with the +38 K1s it is very tight indeed. 5 mm maybe. I seriously doubt that I could run 15x8 within the STX rules and with my current chassis setup.

2. I have had to bite the bullet and scrap $600 worth of new 225/45-15 R1R rubber. Nothing I found would make those tires behave as well as the 205/50-15 Z1, and so I have returned to the Dunlop. That was an unfortunate and expensive bit of research.

Kind regards,

Charlie

 

1) Would the 15x8s not clear the fender lip, you think? Do you know if the R56 has more fender room than the R53s in that respect?

2) What didn't you like about the R1Rs? I have heard that the 225s respond much better on wider wheels... and that even a 7.5" makes a big difference over a 7". Have you thought about the 195 R1Rs? They are supposed to be a single compound vs all the other sizes...

 

Damned good points I reckon - perhaps I should retain your services as a setup consultant. Here are my tentative replies:

1. I also am given to understand that the 195s are a very good choice. Certainly the Civics like them. They are indeed a single compound construction, as opposed to the wider models that resort to a slightly stiffer compound from about 3/32 down to the cord. My reasoning is based on weight and power (~2,500 lbs, and 180 whp). I might be missing a good solution though as I have NOT tried that approach. The 7.5 might be enough also, but as I am between jobs I've only sufficient funds for one more decision, so that has to be a 100% safe decision or I'll put a very competitive season at risk. I might be toggling from too creative to too conservative I suppose.

2. I'm a bit frustrated at my clearance situation - I haven't gathered any comparative data between the R56 and the R53. I can only observe that the 15x7 +38 wearing 225.45-15 is tight on the inside (between the rim and the trailing arm), and tighter on the outside ("self trimming" the fender liner when compressed - at about 10 and 2 on the clock). I'm lowered a fair bit, and using adjustable lower control arms to reduce rear camber to -1. I'd have thought that that latter setting would help, not hurt, on the outer edge clearance issue.

I've pulled the trigger on the 205//50-15 Direzzas, and courtesy of a barter deal with an extremely talented local race shop I shall re-do the rubber and alignment, and come out where I was last year. That's not a bad thing, as last year the setup was good enough for a class championship.

At the end of the day I must admit that the car is better than the driver, as has always been the case. Beth Strelniek made that quite evident a couple of years ago at an Evo challenge school, not that I needed reminding.

I'd love to eyeball and measure a setup that fits on an R53 with similar chassis dimensions and settings as mine - I believe it can be done, but I just have not found the recipe thus far.

Kind regards,

Charlie

 

Interesting... thanks for sharing your experience. My hope is that the R56 does have more fender room. I just can't see the Mini being competitive in STX without being able to fit at least 15x8s. To be honest, I think 15x9s in the front will be the ticket, although I suspect a good -3.5* of camber would be required, if not more. I guess I will see if the 15x8s work with a 225/45/15. Although at this time I don't plan on running more than -2* camber front and rear(ideally I would like around -1.5* in the rear).

 

I'm -2.5 front, and have plenty of room. It's the back that is a worry. Good luck with your setup, I hope you'll find room by making more careful choices than I have.

Kind regards,

Charlie

 

You are running 15s and I am running 17s so maybe I am missing something, but why do you need an 8" rim to run a 225/45? I am running 235/40s on a 7.5" rim and 15 mm front spacers without any trouble. When we looked into running an 8" rim, everyone thought there was no way without destroying the fender liner and lip. Doing so would take you out of STX. There is no question that the MINI is tire challenged compared to the RX-8s and BMWs.

 

So in your experience the 7.5" is sufficient? 190 mm of rim will do the job?

Perhaps when I've replenished my racing war chest a little later in the year I'll make some more careful measurements and look again.

I suspect the offset on the back for my car is going to be critical. The 7" rim at +38 leaves less than 5 mm clearance on the trailing arm, so the 7.5 will require +36 (which seems to work for some). That'll poke 7 mm outwards from my current rims, but of course the contact patch will only shift 2 mm - but in the direction which is currently "self trimming", hence my concern.

There's certainly stuff available that is close (e.g. http://949racing.com/15x7.5-6ul-nickel.aspx)

STX rules do apply.

Thanks for weighing in.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Our 7.5s are 45 mm offset. If we run another common event, you are welcome to test fit our tires. I have no rubbing issues, but mine is an R56. We may be comparing apples and oranges.

 

What a kind offer - thank you!

By the way, are you going to Finger Lakes for the Divisionals?

Charlie

 

A 235 on a 7.5" wheel?? That seems rather.... well.... inadequate, for lack of a better word.


From what I have read, the fastest ST* tires(the R1Rs and RS3s) have a somewhat softer sidewall and like a wide wheel for their given size. Over on SCCAForums, they recommend a 7.5" wheel for the 195 Toyo R1Rs on the ST Civics, stating that those tires work better on a 7.5 than a 7". Everything I have read about the 225 R1Rs and RS3s has said don't bother putting them on anything less than an 8" wide wheel.

The Miata camp has found additional time to be had by putting the 225s on a 15x9 even, instead of a 15x8 in the STR NBs.

The fastest FWD Civics at my local track(road course) are running 225/45/15s on 15x9s in front, 15x8s in back.

Edit: I guess the question isn't whether you "need" to run a wider wheel, but will the car be faster on a wider wheel for a given tire size. With the current crop of street tires, I believe the answer is yes(to a limit, of course).

Will a 235 fit and work on a 7.5" wheel? Sure... Will it be any faster than a 225? Maybe, maybe not. Street tires do not have anywhere near as stiff a sidewall as the Hoosiers... so following the Stock class mentality of stuffing a super wide tire on a narrower rim may not work in the ST* classes.

I will be trying a set of 15x8s with 225s for my STX Mini. I suspect the fronts will fit without any issue. If I need to run more camber in the rear to clear the fender lip, so be it. I hope I dont have to move to a 7.5 in the rear, but we will see.