Greg-
What class are you trying to prepare your car for? Our shop prepared the E30 M3 JP car that won the last 4 JP races we entered with John Paton as the driver (2 at Barber and 2 at Lime Rock). In testing, we both were lapping the now bumpier than ever Lime Rock at 1:01.5.
At Watkins Glen I couldn't get my modestly prepared MCS (with your old leather seats) below 2:17 and that's 4.5 seconds off Paton's lap time! (No, I wasn't running Hoosiers but rather V710s.)
I think it's going to take a lot of development to get a Mini up to that speed. Your thoughts/plans?
Don

 

Well, I'm sure that a wing up top will cut down on FWD understeer TREMENDOUSLY by virtue of its tendency to cause the accumulation of sheets dust on the boot.

 

Don, with those times in your Mini S I'm not sure why your not getting calls to come and drive a Grand Am car ... You are saying that you are doing a 1:01 at LRP and a 2:17 at the Glen in your Mini, or am I missing something. If so, I might as well toss in the towel now ....
Gotta run, will ask more later....

 

I am not suggesting you throw in the towel or any such thing; I was asking what class are you preparing for? D-mod?
My MCS is JP legal but so far off the JP pace I won't do it. I haven't had my Mini at Lime Rock, I was speaking of the E30 M3. In JP to run competitively at LR you must be in the 1:01s consistently. The 2:17 at WGI in my MCS is boat slow compared to what our E30 will do. You have to be able to run 2:12s to be successful.
Just check the time sheets, Paton runs faster times in lesser cars than Turner at the dual events: Grand Am/BMWCR. He also holds numerous track records in both JS and JP. (http://www.clubracingstats.org/login.php Username = bmwcrweb Password = bmwcrweb123) He also dominated in PCA Club Racing before moving to BMWCR.
We have numerous friends who do drive in Grand Am and similar series and if he was so inclined John would as well. We both have been asked to co-drive in enduros many times (I hold an SCCA & IMSA Pro license from way back). But he has more productive things to do with his time and auto racing at the moment is not on my radar screen.
I, as you know, just got back into cars because the wife/family doesn't want me gone Thursday through Sunday racing bikes all over the country any more. I just instruct with various clubs (BMW, PCA, PDA, etc.) to get free track time whenever possible. And when various race shops rent out test time I do a lot of setup work on customer’s cars, mostly Porsches. At the end of July we will be back at the Glen for 2 test days with Kojote Motorsport. Will we be seeing you there?

 

Don,
Doing :59s at LRP should not be a problem for my car, just not sure about me...
Doing a 2:17 at the Glen in a slightly modified Mini is not something I would have guessed could be done, so forgive me for being sceptical on that one. Getting my Mini around that track in 2:12 I think is not possible. It's just not a good track for the Mini, but I hope to find out in September.

Anyway, the build is a big part of why I'm doing this. If I just wanted to go out and win, or consistaintly podium then I would have continued with pursuing a built up M3.

 

Why is WGI not a good track for the Mini?
It sounds like we'll be seeing you there for the BMWCR.
On another note, let me try and tap some of your knowledge. I am going to a BBK with 17" wheels. Tire choices and size are limited to Hoosier, Hankook, and Toyo (Kuhmo doesn't seem to make a wide range of 17s). I am running the H&R coilovers (street version) with 2.25 deg neg camber, front and rear. Question: Should I stay with 205s or go to a larger size? And if so, what size? Thanks...

 

As you know the Glen has always been where the powerful cars get the advantage. The MINI is just too slow for such a fast track. Not just the small motor, but aerodynamically. Getting to 125 at the end of the back straight is real hard to do in a Mini, where as the M3s are doing what, 140-145?
There are just too many places to 'power' away from a small displacement car there.
But, I may be wrong. Time will tell just what a race prepped mini can do, I hope.

Tires:
I love the 205-45 in the shaved RA1 on the Mini. But if you are doing a 2:17 at the Glen then I would say that it might be a good idea to spend some time modifying your wheel wells to fit a 225-45 Hoosier or a 235-40 RA1. They are both about the same size. At that point though an 8"-9" wheel is the best choice as a 7.5" is just to narrow in my opinion for these tires.
Modifying the wheel wells is not a 'huge' job. A good hammer for the metal, grinder to cut away some small studs (that support the plastic wheel well) and a sharp chisel to shave down some plastic. And some wheel spacers if you are not going with custom wheels.
BUT, as I say, those 205 RA1s are a sweet little tire. Very quick and fast. I'm just afraid that with your abilities that you might find their limit in the corners a bit sooner then you want.

 

a 225 rubbing on any part of the suspension? Because if there isn't I'll try it.
Our E30 M3 runs into the same aero problem -- it hits terminal velocity as well. The 2:17 I recorded is unofficial as it came off my video camera that was downloaded into Dartfish software. That's the same software I work with the Roush team. It is still 5 seconds a lap of our E30, though!

 

This depends on what wheels you are using. On a 7.5" wheel you need a max of about +40 offset to be safe. Otherwise the tire may hit the front struts and the rear trailing arms. I use a 45mm offset wheel with the RA1 235-40s and I need 5mm spacer in the front and a 3mm spacer in the rear.

I would personally go with a 45mm offset and use spacers to adjust everything. This just gives you more room in the rear wheel wells and that the hardest area to modify. You will then need new wheel studs, which is a great idea for the track anyway. I get mine from Turner.

The photo below is with the RA1 235s.

 

So, you are running a 17x7.5, 45mm offset, 5mm spacer in the front and a 3mm spacer in the rear, longer studs, on 235/40 RA1s?

 

Yes. I was running that last year. I will be running larger on the new setup.
Picture is of Rota Subzero, 17x7.5x45. The tires are my intermediates, Toyo RA1 235-40-17 in full tread. I also ran Hoosier wets, 225-45-17 on the Kosei 17-7.5-45. The Hoosiers were actually slightly wider.

 

Oooops, I should also note that I was running a good amount of negative camber, about -3 front and -2.3 in the rear. This will also make a difference on what fits and might make it a bit harder to clear wheel wells if you have no camber adjustment.

 

Is this how you cleared the rear weld seams Greg? I tried 225/45 at the rear with -1.6 camber but could not clear the seams during heavy compression

 

 

...I guess I didn't use this as hard as you did...do you have an image of the area in question so I can see how far you bent the metal?

 

How about 17 "225s at the front and 205s at the rear?

 

Unless they are the exact same diameter, you might have an issue with your ABS. I personally think that besides the ABS it might be a tuning nightmare. I've thought about this in the aspect or rotating in corners, but I think that can better be tuned in with other suspension changes and adjustments. I'd be a little worried about the rear loosing grip that much faster then the front and ending up in an uncontrollable spin.

Added this:
Actually you might end up with more understeer as the 205s do seem to have better "turn in" characteristics.

 

Sid, I did do a bit of grinding also. I will take a picture this week, but it may be hard to really see how much I did. If you don't see a pic by Friday, please bug me about it..

 

Sorry for the many post, but things keep jumping into my head.
I don't want to talk anyone into a larger "R" compound tire then the 205 for the Mini. Unless you have a bunch, and I mean a bunch of extra power, I think that the 205s can be faster then the 225 0r 235s. In this case wider is not better for our low powered cars. I'd give the 205s a try I think.
Just a thought.

 

all these questions. Your not talking me, at least, into anything so don't worry. I am just appreciative for your insight and helpfulness.

 

Whats so hard about 125 in the back straight at the Glen. You should be hitting 130+ there in your car in the old trim.

 

If you are asking me, I think I was around 115 to 120. My gearing was different because I was running on 15s so I am interpolating. That is flat out from before the apex of one to the braking zone of the inner loop. Interestingly, Paton's E30 M3 that holds the track record in BMWCR JP does not hit 125 either.

 

Larry, (good to hear from you)
To be honest I don't truly remember what I was hitting, but it was around the 120 mark. I will say that I did not set the car up for the Glen as it was my first and only time there. My wing was set up for LRP and NHIS. Too much rear wing for the Glen. I was also on brand new tires, the first time on 235s, so I also was still trying to dial those in. Not trying to give excuses, as I myself was slow because the speed of the track, I kept turning early, never got into a rhythm at all.
Maybe with the new tranny, lighter weight, better power and better suspension it will be a more comfortable track.
Here is that old video of the Glen out the back window. As you can see the Mini behind me gained on the straight. This would be due to my wing, hood scoop and tires I'm sure.
http://members.tripod.com/ghmyc_1m/glen1a.wmv

 

onasled-
I've been meaning to ask: What's up with the wing? From speaking to Paul Cooper in the UK it is more of a marketing thing. The racers over their trim it out because all it does is create drag.
I also learned that they modify the front wishbones and run about 4.5 deg negative camber at the front. Interesting....

 

I think wider tires makes a difference between different wheel sizes. We have been trying to pick the appropriate tire/wheel size for my buddies '06 JCW w/BBK and ended up going with a 17x7 OZ Superleggeras w/205/40/17 Toyo RA1s based on a previous discussion that was going on earlier this year. The combined weight of this setup is 34lbs. In contrast my modded MCS running Slotted & Nippled Rotors/SS Lines/Hawk Pads has the ability to run a 15x7 OZ Superleggera w/225/50/15 Toyo RA1s (33lbs total). My brakes were absolutely horrible on Sat as I have to figure out some different pads. But the result was a 6 second difference in laptimes (we even switched cars to equal out the drivers). The JCW definitely needed a rear sway bar which prevented the car from rotating as well, but the main thing we noticed between the two was the limits of adhesion. Both cars have factory LSDs and coming out of the slower corners is like night and day. JCW tires spinning, fighting for traction vs my MCS just grip and go. Also in turns you could feel the tires sliding quicker in the JCW. We are going to do the rear bar and camber plates on the JCW to see if this evens them up a bit, but I don't think it's going to knock 6 seconds off the lap time. Also my brakes are absolutely garbage compared to the JCW, if I sort those out there is no he'll be able to keep up. Wider tires

'06 JCW setup: strut brace, bbk, suspension, cai, pulley, exhaust. (all JCW)
'05 MCS setup: m7 strut brace, h-sport springs, 15% pulley, invidia exhaust, alta intake, rear bar, brakes, rear control arms, camber plates (no camber set).

Amit