R56 Top Gear Mag pans R56
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 454
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From: Williamsburg, VA
EVO is the first review I read that actually finds fault in the handling.
Unlike the Top Gear review that found the handling over bumps to be better than the old car.
"The front end doesn’t always feel completely nailed, either, reacting oddly over certain combinations of bumps where the old car would have felt utterly tied down."
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 580
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Uh uh!
A VW bug is more fun that at least 1/2 the cars on the road today and it's pretty slow and unrulely. Let's just all agree the R53 is the VW bug of MINIs and be done with it. 
[/quote]
WHAT???
The R53 is a MODERN CAR. Unless you're comparing it to the MODERN "bug", there's no comparison. A vintage VW bug would compare with MKI and MKII Minis, as they were competitors in their day. I have owned a bunch of vintage bugs, a bus and a squareback, 58's through 71, and they are BREAD AND WATER compared to ANY MODERN MINI.
Modern "bugs" vs vintage (real) bugs, modern Minis vs vintage Minis, especially the MKI's and MKII's...no comparison. Totally different vehicles, carrying the spirit and the name.
[/quote]WHAT???
The R53 is a MODERN CAR. Unless you're comparing it to the MODERN "bug", there's no comparison. A vintage VW bug would compare with MKI and MKII Minis, as they were competitors in their day. I have owned a bunch of vintage bugs, a bus and a squareback, 58's through 71, and they are BREAD AND WATER compared to ANY MODERN MINI.
Modern "bugs" vs vintage (real) bugs, modern Minis vs vintage Minis, especially the MKI's and MKII's...no comparison. Totally different vehicles, carrying the spirit and the name.
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Talk talk talk
I will reserve judgment on the R56 until I get to drive it, but it seems to me that the R56 is more akin in overall feel and driving demeanor to VW's GTI than to the outgoing R50/53 MINI.
Uh, you reserved judgement, then you pretty well judged it...
Uh, you reserved judgement, then you pretty well judged it...
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 0
"It’s clearly a MINI, with that almost preternatural agility and directness, and boy, does it go. And yet, judged against the te,plate of the previous Cooper S, the driving experience, while obviously familiar, doesn’t gel quite as satisfyingly. It’s down to steering. True, it doesn’t whine annoyingly anymore, but neither does it feel as naturally detailed or fluent as it should. Super-sharp initial turn-in is followed by a disconcerting numbness and inconsistency of weighting that feeds through only patchy messages as to how the car is reacting. The front end doesn’t always feel completely nailed, either, reacting oddly over certain combinations of bumps where the old car would have felt utterly tied down."
Ouch.
Ouch.
Did they have the optional "Sport" suspension on the test car?
Banned
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,328
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I'm pretty sure most people will be prejudging the R56 until the day they trade in their R53 for one...........
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,646
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
Did they have the optional "Sport" suspension on the test car?
there is tons of stuff under LEARN ABOUT section of Miniusa ...
like "auto on" rear wiper if you have your front wipers on and you put the car in Reverse ...
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 454
Likes: 5
From: Williamsburg, VA
WHAT???
The R53 is a MODERN CAR. Unless you're comparing it to the MODERN "bug", there's no comparison. A vintage VW bug would compare with MKI and MKII Minis, as they were competitors in their day. I have owned a bunch of vintage bugs, a bus and a squareback, 58's through 71, and they are BREAD AND WATER compared to ANY MODERN MINI.
Modern "bugs" vs vintage (real) bugs, modern Minis vs vintage Minis, especially the MKI's and MKII's...no comparison. Totally different vehicles, carrying the spirit and the name.
The R53 is a MODERN CAR. Unless you're comparing it to the MODERN "bug", there's no comparison. A vintage VW bug would compare with MKI and MKII Minis, as they were competitors in their day. I have owned a bunch of vintage bugs, a bus and a squareback, 58's through 71, and they are BREAD AND WATER compared to ANY MODERN MINI.
Modern "bugs" vs vintage (real) bugs, modern Minis vs vintage Minis, especially the MKI's and MKII's...no comparison. Totally different vehicles, carrying the spirit and the name.
6th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,478
Likes: 2
This does not make the new car inferior nor does it mean critics of the new MINI should be accused of "adolescent whining" or subject to any other ad hominem attacks. Everyone should be able to express their opinion and debate the R56's merits and deficiencies without being called names or being unfairly labelled.
How simple can that be?
6th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,478
Likes: 2
This is nothing new ... sports buttons exist in several cars already. Throttle response does not add any HP and will NOT get you anywhere quicker. ... its marketing hype.
Those who use it will think they are going faster but its an illusion ... your not gaining HP but hitting a button. Rather, all it will do is means instead of flooring it, you press the gas half way ... or whatever ... better throttle response.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,762
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There's ton's of stuff you can learn by reading through some of the other nation's MINI sites and other MINI forums: http://www.mini2.com/forum/2nd-gen-m...t=sport+button
Like there's a budget minded Cooper One... and a Diesel model out there as well!!!
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 363
Likes: 3
From: San Diego, CA
True that it adds no HP, but BMW cars with drive-by-wire are programmed to sample the throttle position constantly and apply throttle linearly in order to maximize fuel economy and minimize pollution. That has given them awful throttle response. I can literally stab my gas pedal to the floor and lift on our Z3 and the engine barely changes speed. This button tells the computer that you want to put accelleration ahead of fuel economy and pollution control. So don't underestimate this feature. It lets you drive in a more spirited fashion when you want to, and puts the computer into fuel nanny mode otherwise.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 38,578
Likes: 2
6th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,478
Likes: 2
There's ton's of stuff you can learn by reading through some of the other nation's MINI sites and other MINI forums: http://www.mini2.com/forum/2nd-gen-m...t=sport+button
Like there's a budget minded Cooper One... and a Diesel model out there as well!!!
Like there's a budget minded Cooper One... and a Diesel model out there as well!!!
It appears MINI is giving this away free but I just dont want people thinking all of a sudden, you push a button and you get more HP because its not true.
The "Sport Button" has been highly debated in the P-car forums and most ppl view it as another way to suck $1K in options of you. There is one difference, though in that the RPM limiter because soft rather than a hard RPM cutoff which helps on the race tracks but I dont see that mentioned in MINI literature.
I can see it wasting gas because your just giving it more gas and people will think they are getting better performance but its mostly an illusion.
Then again ... maybe MINI got some secret widgets wired in there
If you like it ... use it, more fun I guess.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 38,578
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This is true. Even though I frequent MINI2 myself, it is very tricky sorting out packages and options because they are so dissimilar to what we tend to get. In the end is can be pretty frustrating. Still, given that large grain of salt, there is tons of information to be gleaned.
6th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15,478
Likes: 2
This is true. Even though I frequent MINI2 myself, it is very tricky sorting out packages and options because they are so dissimilar to what we tend to get. In the end is can be pretty frustrating. Still, given that large grain of salt, there is tons of information to be gleaned.
Even worse were the tuners ... I got so sick of hearing Roland bashing JCW its far worse than here. Then you get the Swedes, Finns, South Africans, Aussies, Germans, etc, etc, etc, and I didn't have a clue as to what they were saying
Banned
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,756
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And you point is?
The R56 is in our future. In fact, I am going to put my name down for a new '08 Clubman at my near by MINI dealership this weekend.
No one here, including Gabe from Motoringfile, has driven the R56. We are ALL basing our opinions of the new car on "hear say" and what we read from different sources that have "reviewed" the car.
Most everyone agrees (Including owners in Europe that have already taken delivery of their new R56s) that the car feels much more refined than the R50/53 generation in almost every area. Engines appear to be more responsive and smooth than ever before.
The point of "debate" appears to be that MINI has removed some of the "edgy" nature of the outgoing car for the sake of refinement and better day to dat driveability. MINI wants to expands the market audience of this car and for that reason they need to strike a balance between the expectations of the "enthusiast" driver and the "joe six pack" that will be driving it on a daily basis.
MINI owners are one passionate and vocal bunch and most of us tend to resist change. Remember the dissenting voices when the Cabrio first came out 2 years ago? Or when MINI did a mid-cycle refreshing of the car in 2005?
So, lighten up. I want the R56 to succeed because it is in our future. In the mean time, We will continue to enjoy our solid R50 AND R53 MINIs in our driveway.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,762
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But as EVO is a UK based mag, it's likely testing a UK/Euro spec'd car in which various performace features are not availible, don't come stock or are just plain MIA on the press test cars. Primarily the "sport button", "sport suspention" and "Limited Slip Differential".
All of these features would effect (for better or worse) the handling charactoristics described in the EVO article (cornering behavior, turn-in speed, etc) and would therefore be relevant... at least when considering the critisisms by EVO in this specific article.
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 454
Likes: 5
From: Williamsburg, VA
Actually the EVO car did have sport suspension but I don't think it had the sport button. It looks like the same car Paul of MINI2 drove in Spain. I did just go back and re-read the article a bit closer and if you go past the quoted paragraph they end up saying the R56 is more fun than the R53. So Top Gear says better car less fun and EVO says small problems with car but more fun. I think it's safe to say we are not talking about big differences either way...
It even makes all the right noises – burbly exhaust at tickover, throaty growl thereafter – and connects with beautifully judged ratios swapped by a slick, short-throw ’box. It’s clearly a Mini, with that almost preternatural agility and directness, and, boy, does it go. And yet, judged against the template of the previous Cooper S, the driving experience, while obviously familiar, doesn’t gel quite as satisfyingly. It’s down to the steering. True, it doesn’t whine annoyingly anymore, but neither does it feel as naturally detailed or fluent as it should. Super-sharp initial turn-in is followed by a disconcerting numbness and inconsistency of weighting that feeds through only patchy messages as to how the car is reacting. The front end doesn’t always feel completely nailed, either, reacting oddly over certain combinations of bumps where the old car would have felt utterly tied down.
The good news is that, with just a little acclimatisation, you can drive through these oddities and really lean on the Cooper S to a degree you’d maybe think twice about in the Clio. The extra kinematic scope of the revised rear suspension makes it, if anything, more adjustable than the old car, and arguably more fun. Feeding into this, the gearshift and pedals are beautifully weighted and precise, and the whole car is shot through with an air of heavy, well-damped quality that the Renault can only dream of.
The good news is that, with just a little acclimatisation, you can drive through these oddities and really lean on the Cooper S to a degree you’d maybe think twice about in the Clio. The extra kinematic scope of the revised rear suspension makes it, if anything, more adjustable than the old car, and arguably more fun. Feeding into this, the gearshift and pedals are beautifully weighted and precise, and the whole car is shot through with an air of heavy, well-damped quality that the Renault can only dream of.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,646
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
No, chow... they are not the models imported to the US (read back a couple posts of mine and you'll see I was attempting some humor at lurch70's expence - no offence lurch).
... I am aware of all this ... been around these parts since 03 and mini2 since 02, so I am pretty aware of what happens all across the world in MINI land
Actually the EVO car did have sport suspension but I don't think it had the sport button. It looks like the same car Paul of MINI2 drove in Spain. I did just go back and re-read the article a bit closer and if you go past the quoted paragraph they end up saying the R56 is more fun than the R53. So Top Gear says better car less fun and EVO says small problems with car but more fun. I think it's safe to say we are not talking about big differences either way...
but that's still not excusing the interior design mess
Neutral
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
[FONT="][/FONT]
Just to clarify for you guys over there. Here in the UK, the Cooper S comes with the Sports button as standard. On the Cooper its not even an option at the moment.[FONT="]
[/FONT]The Evo review took place in Spain – but was it a Spanish car? It looks like its got German plates on it
Actually the EVO car did have sport suspension but I don't think it had the sport button. It looks like the same car Paul of MINI2 drove in Spain. I did just go back and re-read the article a bit closer and if you go past the quoted paragraph they end up saying the R56 is more fun than the R53. So Top Gear says better car less fun and EVO says small problems with car but more fun. I think it's safe to say we are not talking about big differences either way...
[/FONT]The Evo review took place in Spain – but was it a Spanish car? It looks like its got German plates on it
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,474
Likes: 3
From: Over there -->
You know, this situation begs for our looking back on the R53 experience. The new MINI first came out in Europe; we all glommed-onto every bit of info from reviews, and the new owner comments appearing in the fledgling online forums. From this material, we all made a few premature judgements and decisions. Then MINI hit the US, and the reality of a multi-national market design held some suprises.
My predjudice had to do with the "buzz" that the S suspension was too hard. Before I actually drove an '03, I was bound and determined to soften things up with some aftermarket work. Turns out that I loved the '03 setup and was a tad dissapointed with the *slightly* softer '04 offering (a larger sway bar cured that!).
So, I'm going to sit back (with the Jeopardy theme playing in the background) and wait until I spend a afternoon with a US R56 equipped with the Hyper-Sports package (different dampening/spring rates and a thicker sway bar, I gather), DSC, LSD, and the fabled "Sports Button" (steering and throttle response). I'm sure I'll have a better opinion then.
FWIW,
Theo
My predjudice had to do with the "buzz" that the S suspension was too hard. Before I actually drove an '03, I was bound and determined to soften things up with some aftermarket work. Turns out that I loved the '03 setup and was a tad dissapointed with the *slightly* softer '04 offering (a larger sway bar cured that!).
So, I'm going to sit back (with the Jeopardy theme playing in the background) and wait until I spend a afternoon with a US R56 equipped with the Hyper-Sports package (different dampening/spring rates and a thicker sway bar, I gather), DSC, LSD, and the fabled "Sports Button" (steering and throttle response). I'm sure I'll have a better opinion then.
FWIW,
Theo
Reverse Gear
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,472
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Some of the lit says ratio...
While I guess variable ratio is possible, I think it would be hard to implement. Most systems I'm aware of are variable boost, as that can help with high boost when you're parking, and low boost at speed, when you want more feel.
Matt