Beware: This is what MINI USA thinks about our complaints about engines knocking!
 

Hi folks - following a Lemon Law arbitration hearing in New York this week, MINI USA and Manhattan MINI thought these noises merely evidenced the direct injection system in a Cooper S. This was a master tech and a regional engineer, folks, and I thought you guys might find these videos very interesting. I will be posting them soon.

In the coming week, I will put together a complete package for all fellow motoring members on what to expect should you ever find yourself in a lemon law case with MINI. I will also point out how you can prove any falsehoods that might present themselves. It is an unenviable position to be in. BTW, MINI USA's own engineer wouldn't even admit that the timing chain issues presented a problem to many people, nor that it took a few tries to get it right.

I am merely posting this information because it's the kind of thing that I would have found helpful before both purchasing the car, and obviously, before this hearing. I strongly believe that a company should stand behind it's own vehicle, and when the time comes, repair or replace if necessary.

Videos will be up shortly.

NYCMINILAW

As promised, the first video. More to come with my full write-up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl2jtiAMSSw

And a second video! Wait until about the the second or third time you hear the engine revved. This is the kind of thing that belongs on Motoringfile. Come on MINI, stand behind your product like a responsible manufacturer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU7aVGuSCiY

nycminilaw,

Keep us informed. I have been trying to keep track of what is going on with this whole scenario on our website.

I will put together a full write up this weekend. I don't want to come-off ranting - but think other people would find it helpful to see what I have gone through, and to know what to expect at one of these hearings. For them to deny that the cold-start and timing chain problems have affected numerous customers, and that MINI was unable to come up with an adequate fix right away, is really harmful for old and potential customers.

Typically, BMW and MINI put gag orders in their deals with customers. I have received no offer of any deal, so I am in the rare situation where I can dish.

Very nice!

This is very interesting. I have been doing a lot of research and this seems to be a very large issue. Bigger than what bmw/mini are making it out to be. Complaints are flying around left and right. We have been trying to put pressure on mini by gathering groups of people and asking Mini Cooper/BMW to do something. So far no luck. I hope your dealings might help the rest of us out a bit.

So you joined here to post this?

You're not going to get much traction....
 

the issue will go away for good with the VANOS system that will come out in less than a year. Till then, they'll pretend it's a) normal or b) fixed with all the stuff that they've done for those that choose to complain enough. That will put the majority of the cars well past the warranty date and they'll have dodged the bullet.

I actually don't think it's a recall issue myself, as not every car has the problem. It just sucks how it's hit or miss as to the dealer and MINI actually standing up to fix the problem for those that do have it. It's been going on for years now, and pretending that it's not a problem is just silly.

Matt

oh wow.....that sounds similiar to how the BMW E90/E92 had knocking from our wastegates. this is unacceptable and i hope this never happens to my Mini. I just lemoned my BMW E92, so I'm hoping this doesn't happen to me again....

Just to clarify for board members - this issue came up, under oath, at an arbitration hearing. I just thought it was ridiculous that the same videos which caused BMW and Manhattan MINI to spend thousands on repairs, later caused them to say that they thought it sounded fine.

Really, I am saddened by this whole experience... I guess this is the same company that, at one point, refused to refund the purchase of a car that was damaged before sale, and then hidden from the consumer (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_of_...,_Inc._v._Gore)

THere are examples
 

of both MINI being good (fixing things after warranty expiration) and not so good: "We've never heard of this before!" or "It's normal" or whatever the latest and greatest exuse of the day is. What baffles me is the lack of consistancy in the corporate position. This makes no sense at all.

good luck with the suit!

Matt

Call me deaf, but ... what exactly am I listening for that is the "bad" noise? I mean, the MINI is already far from being quiet -- the engine revs up and down a tiny bit at idle, you can hear dings and fzzzs and the engine is indeed not like the smooth V6 I used to have (altima se-r) but somehow I carry on as it seems not to be having any trouble.

In that second video, for example, at what precise mm:ss should I hear the "problem", and what am I listening for?

First video - exactly at the 40 second mark.
Second video - listen to 1:09.

The "bad" sound will be like a hammer hitting solid metal, or a very loud diesel-type knock, eminating from the glovebox area (the side of the motor the tensioner is on). it will last anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes.

You cannot miss it, I guarantee you that. :thumbsup:

nycminilaw good luck. the whole tensioner chain issue will probably force me to get rid of my otherwise (mostly) trouble-free car at warranty's end, and that'll be it for me, MINI-wise, considering my 05 S was a piece of crap.

Wait 'till you see the video from after the last timing chain repair (the latest version). I agree that this is not a real fix, and the video proves it. These are design flaws. Which is too bad because I bought wholeheartedly into MINI's branding, only to be crushed by a bad dealer and then BMW NA.

I'm not understanding here.....

I know they've repeated tried to fix this problem but as of late, they have.

They finally came out with the correct fix within the last couple of months. It was even on motoring file.

Why not just pull the bulletin to get it fixed?

Is it really worth the effort?

Maybe I'm missing something....


Mark

Mark - if you go back on Motoringfile, you can see that MINI has claimed it had the correct fix on several occasions. My point here is not about the timing issues as such, only that MINI was unable to stand behind their products and say what actually has been happening.

I understand but now that they are able to stand behind it and repair it correctly, isn't it water under the bridge?

Like Dr. O mentioned... once Vanos software is established, I'm sure all this old stuff will be "swept under the rug".

Anyway, good luck... wish you the best.

Mark

Agreed ... except, in this instance, it wasn't repaired correctly. I will post the video tomorrow. It is from a time after the repair, and the noises are still there. Being one of those who was the first to get this latest SIM upgrade, I think we should all proceed with cautious optimism.

I will agree with Mark and Dr. O on this one. I think this is for people that just want to try and use the lemon law.

You're missing the part where nycminilaw wants his pound of flesh from Mini.



Personally, I'm suspicious that this is a lawyer seeking additional plaintiffs for a potential class action suit. :sly:

Ha. Good idea, but nope. Not the case. I guarantee it. I may be a lawyer, but I am also an owner, and one who got duped.

Ding! We have a winnah!


How much are you seeking?

Ha. Well, I certainly wasn't trying to hide that, but at base, I'm a consumer. My major problem is that MINI USA / BMW NA's own engineers straight up mis-represented and lied under oath. I just don't want people to put false trust in these people

1) You didn't answer my question.
2) Did they fix your car?
3) Did Mini provide broad fix for this issue?

C'mon, you can tell us. It's not really about lying "under oath" or "false trust", now is it? It's about a payday for you.

How much are you seeking?

I'll bet it's more than the cost of a new Mini.

That is a good question. As far as I know they can't give you any money. They can buy back your car and if it covers the amount owed than you are even. If they give you more than what is owed(which they will most likely NOT do) you will have extra cash. Or they can do a trade on a vehicle that is of equal or greater value.

About 6 years ago my dad went through this with his Ford F-150. After three trips and two new transmission(and a whole lot of other parts mixed in over the 3 months) they final called it a lemon. Lucky the dealer ship had the same truck just with a v-8 not a v-6 and cruise control sitting on the lot. So on the fourth visit they had all the paper work written up and the new truck all detailed. It is a rather large pain in the ass to get this taken care of.

Why, you don't want them to be just like all the other car manufacturer's?

:)


Mark

There is a thread on this forum asking people if they'd had their tensioners replaced and whether the noise came back. Seems to me the overwhelming number said it had fixed the problem - it did on mine......

I don't think it's a root cause solution...
 

I think it's just a better bandaid than they've had before. The explanation of why the current fix works and the others didn't just doesn't hold water, and the valve lash adjuster root cause makes much, much more sense.

We'll see where this goes....

Matt

Xeraux - my offer to settle was much less than half of the cost of the MINI - more than reasonable to end this and help for the tons of hours that I had to work on this case, dealing with BMW while they hemmed and hawed about making me an offer and at the end, told me they had nothing for me! Is it an abuse of trust for your car company to tell you everything is fine - when clearly they know it's not? I think so. I know that many people aren't fans of lawyers - and for good reason - but it's this kind of action, and grassroots support, that got e46 m3 engines warranteed for 100k miles.

Bear in mind that I spent thousands on dealer accessories - and only dealer accessories - for this car. I really loved it, perhaps why I am so disappointed now.

Ok, here is the video of the engine after the latest fix. If you pause on the shot of the date on my phone, you can see that it was only from a few days ago. Also note, between this video and the last, I got the JCW engine kit installed by the dealer (why? because I am an enthusiast and truly believed MINI could fix my car!).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qb1t8KS19E

Damn that sound horrible.

Not according to BMW USA's own engineer! Now can you guys see why I am a little upset?

That really does sound terrible. My car doesn't sound anything like that (even when I have noticed a cold start rattle). To be fair, if your a lawyer with a problem you fix it in court. I suspect if the OP was a BMW tech he would have fixed it himself. I sell cars (not Mini) and often call on friends at other dealers to help me with auto related issues. It's really just using the tools in your personal tool box.

That's after the fix???

That is HORRIBLE.

Regardless whether you start or finish a class action suit, I'd think it would be pretty safe to say that your main desire is to fix the freakin' problem.

Can I make a suggestion?

See what bulletin they are fixing your car under and see what parts are being used.

I'm just wondering if your dealer's techs aren't up to speed on the latest fix. My car sounded like that and I never took it in because I knew they hadn't fixed it yet.

Once I felt comfortable they had a fix, I finally took it in.

The car has been perfect since.

Doublecheck your part number and bulletin and make sure your dealer isn't being stupid. I know from experience that what one dealer even thinks is a problem, another denies it. There doesn't seem to be any consistency between dealerships.

Let us know.

Mark

I'm all for accountability with these matter, thanks for pursuing this! I'd like to see warranty for timing chain related issues extended. The DSG tranny in my VW recently had its warranty extended to 10 yr/100K due to issues some people have been having.

wow, it sounds worse after the fix...

This was certainly the newest fix - that came up at the hearing. I'll post a pic of the papers for everyone tomorrow.

Wow. I just joined this site after test driving a mini today. I was going to buy it, but now I am not so sure. Maybe I should get a VW?