R56 I think BMW should be worried... what do you think?
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Paradise
Alfa IS a part, but the technologies are hardly interchangeable in the field. Corporate ownership doesn't mean the Ferrari mechanic will be able to (or want to) work on your Alfa, and I doubt many parts are interchangeable. In fact, I'd really be surprised if Ferrari dealerships would want to have anything to do with Alfa sales, any more than Maser salespeople would want to fool with Puntos, assuming they come over. And the latter two are very small companies, as far as U.S. sales are concerned.
Oh, and BTW, in the mid 1960's I took my '57 Alfa to the Ferrari dealership in Santa Monica for repairs. After all, an Alfa engine was very much like 1/4 of a Ferrari V12. They both had dual overhead cams and headers.
How many Ferraris and Maseratis do you see in a week?
(Yeah, I know, I know. But the rest of the country doesn't.)
(Yeah, I know, I know. But the rest of the country doesn't.)
As for Fiat and Alfa, while they are both big in the rest of the world, they were soured on the U.S., and the U.S. was soured on them, by the time they left. It will be a long climb for both, sports car nuts notwithstanding.
The demographic for Fiats is mostly too young to remember them. Alfa just needs to improve reliability to find a market here. While that might be a lot to expect from Alfa,
the Top Gear guys were hopeful that would happen with a recent change in management. There was an urban legend going around my high school auto shop (c1965) about someone who had put a V8 in the back of a Fiat 500 and made it look as stock as possible. He'd go around blowing the doors off unsuspecting muscle cars.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,390
Likes: 3
From: Daytona Beach, Florida
No problem because they are not the same at all!
I would not worry to much about other small cars because there just ain't nothing like a Mini Cooper. The Mini is just in a class of its own. The only way any car maker will compete with the Mini is to buy out the company from BMW. Suzuki might advertise "Mightier then the Mini" but it still "AIN"T A Mini" It does not even come close.
The big reason Mini don't sell more then they do is because the dealer network is so spread out. If they had more dealer locations they would sell many more cars then they do.
Ronnie948
The big reason Mini don't sell more then they do is because the dealer network is so spread out. If they had more dealer locations they would sell many more cars then they do.
Ronnie948
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,743
Likes: 5
From: Hot Springs Village, AR
It's not so much about what parts fit what, as to how corporate decisions are made. I could see Fiats, and perhaps Alfas going through Chryster dealers, although I think BMW dealers are a better fit for Alfas.
Oh, and BTW, in the mid 1960's I took my '57 Alfa to the Ferrari dealership in Santa Monica for repairs. After all, an Alfa engine was very much like 1/4 of a Ferrari V12. They both had dual overhead cams and headers.
Saw a Ferrari on Saturday as I was making the two mile drive to the grocery store. I don't really notice Maseratis, unless they are exotic classics.
It is going to be a long climb for Chryster and GM as well. A number of European car companies left the USA because it was too expensive to meet our emission standards for the volume they were selling. As they become more eco-conscious, that hurtle may be diminishing.
The demographic for Fiats is mostly too young to remember them. Alfa just needs to improve reliability to find a market here. While that might be a lot to expect from Alfa, the Top Gear guys were hopeful that would happen with a recent change in management.
Oh, and BTW, in the mid 1960's I took my '57 Alfa to the Ferrari dealership in Santa Monica for repairs. After all, an Alfa engine was very much like 1/4 of a Ferrari V12. They both had dual overhead cams and headers.
Saw a Ferrari on Saturday as I was making the two mile drive to the grocery store. I don't really notice Maseratis, unless they are exotic classics.
It is going to be a long climb for Chryster and GM as well. A number of European car companies left the USA because it was too expensive to meet our emission standards for the volume they were selling. As they become more eco-conscious, that hurtle may be diminishing.
The demographic for Fiats is mostly too young to remember them. Alfa just needs to improve reliability to find a market here. While that might be a lot to expect from Alfa,
the Top Gear guys were hopeful that would happen with a recent change in management.And yes, in the mid-60's our Porsche could have been repaired by the local VW mechanic. Won't happen now, though--80% of 'em probably haven't even HEARD of a 356! (Do you still have your Alfa? We still have the 356.)
The MINI demographic won't remember Fiats first hand, but the news media hasn't helped here. Alfas haven't been mentioned (yet), but at every mention of the Fiat name, the Fix It Again Tony slogan is repeated. That will hurt big time. Actually, I don't remember a major reliability issue on my Fiats--my big gripe was the rust on my new one at 9 months of age, and it had never seen salt, snow, or ice!
P.S. I see maybe 3 or 4 Ferraris a year, in about 15,000 miles of driving. Maseratis? I saw one in motion about 6 months ago. I haven't seen a Lambo in action in, what, a year? Probably more. I see pickups and Stupid Useful Vehicles--lots of them. They are about 8 to 1 over cars where I live.
Which car are you referring to, the 500? All Fiats aren't ugly, and a lot of the Alfas are gorgeous. The press has only shown the 500, which, in my unhumble opinion, is the worst possible model to bring over. Iconic, yes, but that's not enough. Chrysler will lose their collective shirts over that one!
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
From: San Marcos, CA
It's not so much about what parts fit what, as to how corporate decisions are made. I could see Fiats, and perhaps Alfas going through Chryster dealers, although I think BMW dealers are a better fit for Alfas.
Oh, and BTW, in the mid 1960's I took my '57 Alfa to the Ferrari dealership in Santa Monica for repairs. After all, an Alfa engine was very much like 1/4 of a Ferrari V12. They both had dual overhead cams and headers.
Saw a Ferrari on Saturday as I was making the two mile drive to the grocery store. I don't really notice Maseratis, unless they are exotic classics.
It is going to be a long climb for Chryster and GM as well. A number of European car companies left the USA because it was too expensive to meet our emission standards for the volume they were selling. As they become more eco-conscious, that hurtle may be diminishing.
The demographic for Fiats is mostly too young to remember them. Alfa just needs to improve reliability to find a market here. While that might be a lot to expect from Alfa, the Top Gear guys were hopeful that would happen with a recent change in management.
There was an urban legend going around my high school auto shop (c1965) about someone who had put a V8 in the back of a Fiat 500 and made it look as stock as possible. He'd go around blowing the doors off unsuspecting muscle cars.
Oh, and BTW, in the mid 1960's I took my '57 Alfa to the Ferrari dealership in Santa Monica for repairs. After all, an Alfa engine was very much like 1/4 of a Ferrari V12. They both had dual overhead cams and headers.
Saw a Ferrari on Saturday as I was making the two mile drive to the grocery store. I don't really notice Maseratis, unless they are exotic classics.
It is going to be a long climb for Chryster and GM as well. A number of European car companies left the USA because it was too expensive to meet our emission standards for the volume they were selling. As they become more eco-conscious, that hurtle may be diminishing.
The demographic for Fiats is mostly too young to remember them. Alfa just needs to improve reliability to find a market here. While that might be a lot to expect from Alfa,
the Top Gear guys were hopeful that would happen with a recent change in management. There was an urban legend going around my high school auto shop (c1965) about someone who had put a V8 in the back of a Fiat 500 and made it look as stock as possible. He'd go around blowing the doors off unsuspecting muscle cars.
The Fiat-Hemi was really a memory. Saw a blown, fuel Hemi in a Topolino at the Famosa Drags in 1960. It blew up. I'll bet one of those VW's is still cruising Chester Ave.
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3
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From: Texan by choice
Yes I was saying the 500 is ugly...
Yes I am saying that the styling of the 500 is unappealing. I am only referring to that model because that is the one I keep hearing all the buzz about. I have seen thr beauty shots on You Tube, and even in glinting slo mo, it doesn't come close to the MINI in any way...
Yes, I agree that Alfa and Fiat probably won't be stand alone cars, as I said. It's still a big cost and headache to bring a new brand over. Think of all the expenses--everything from business cards to spare engines to signs to possibly a new building. And training thousands of mechanics and salespeople, all at once, too.
And yes, in the mid-60's our Porsche could have been repaired by the local VW mechanic. Won't happen now, though--80% of 'em probably haven't even HEARD of a 356! (Do you still have your Alfa? We still have the 356.)
The MINI demographic won't remember Fiats first hand, but the news media hasn't helped here. Alfas haven't been mentioned (yet), but at every mention of the Fiat name, the Fix It Again Tony slogan is repeated. That will hurt big time. Actually, I don't remember a major reliability issue on my Fiats--my big gripe was the rust on my new one at 9 months of age, and it had never seen salt, snow, or ice!
P.S. I see maybe 3 or 4 Ferraris a year, in about 15,000 miles of driving. Maseratis? I saw one in motion about 6 months ago. I haven't seen a Lambo in action in, what, a year? Probably more. I see pickups and Stupid Useful Vehicles--lots of them. They are about 8 to 1 over cars where I live.
Which car are you referring to, the 500? All Fiats aren't ugly, and a lot of the Alfas are gorgeous. The press has only shown the 500, which, in my unhumble opinion, is the worst possible model to bring over. Iconic, yes, but that's not enough. Chrysler will lose their collective shirts over that one!
And yes, in the mid-60's our Porsche could have been repaired by the local VW mechanic. Won't happen now, though--80% of 'em probably haven't even HEARD of a 356! (Do you still have your Alfa? We still have the 356.)
The MINI demographic won't remember Fiats first hand, but the news media hasn't helped here. Alfas haven't been mentioned (yet), but at every mention of the Fiat name, the Fix It Again Tony slogan is repeated. That will hurt big time. Actually, I don't remember a major reliability issue on my Fiats--my big gripe was the rust on my new one at 9 months of age, and it had never seen salt, snow, or ice!
P.S. I see maybe 3 or 4 Ferraris a year, in about 15,000 miles of driving. Maseratis? I saw one in motion about 6 months ago. I haven't seen a Lambo in action in, what, a year? Probably more. I see pickups and Stupid Useful Vehicles--lots of them. They are about 8 to 1 over cars where I live.
Which car are you referring to, the 500? All Fiats aren't ugly, and a lot of the Alfas are gorgeous. The press has only shown the 500, which, in my unhumble opinion, is the worst possible model to bring over. Iconic, yes, but that's not enough. Chrysler will lose their collective shirts over that one!
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,578
Likes: 5
From: Paradise
No. I was 16 and sold it to get a Dodge van for camping and going off to college. The engineering difference was like travelling back in time by 50 years. Dodge had a push rod engine, solid front and rear axle with leaf springs. It is amazing I survived driving the Dodge. It was definitely unsafe at any speed.
Alfas have been getting some publicity through Top Gear. The seem to have a soft spot in their hearts for them. I think they've said, more than once, something like, "You aren't a true motor-head until you've owned an Alfa." Then in the next breath they mention that you will spend a lot of time stranded on the side of the road.
I see quite a few Ferraris, a few Lambos, and the occasional Maserati. In August, around the Concours d' Elegance in Pebble Beach, I see also sorts of exotic classics. It's fun to be on the road then. When did you last see a Stutz Bearcat, or a 1925 Alfa Romeo P2 on the road?
Yes, pickups and SUVs are everywhere. A few pickups actually belong to ranchers, or folk with horses, but most are just posers.
The MINI demographic won't remember Fiats first hand, but the news media hasn't helped here. Alfas haven't been mentioned (yet), but at every mention of the Fiat name, the Fix It Again Tony slogan is repeated.
P.S. I see maybe 3 or 4 Ferraris a year, in about 15,000 miles of driving. Maseratis? I saw one in motion about 6 months ago. I haven't seen a Lambo in action in, what, a year? Probably more. I see pickups and Stupid Useful Vehicles--lots of them. They are about 8 to 1 over cars where I live.
Yes, pickups and SUVs are everywhere. A few pickups actually belong to ranchers, or folk with horses, but most are just posers.
That was no myth. In the early 60's in Bakersfield, there were a couple of VW's around with Chevy small blocks in the back! They smoked everything.
The Fiat-Hemi was really a memory. Saw a blown, fuel Hemi in a Topolino at the Famosa Drags in 1960. It blew up. I'll bet one of those VW's is still cruising Chester Ave.
The Fiat-Hemi was really a memory. Saw a blown, fuel Hemi in a Topolino at the Famosa Drags in 1960. It blew up. I'll bet one of those VW's is still cruising Chester Ave.
When I was in college & the Miata had just come out, there was kid with a pink "Monster" Miata that used to park outside the comp-sci building. The Monster kit was a Ford 5.0 v8, I think the pink paint job just put it over the top obnoxious.
Fiat was originally going to be piggybacking their Maserati dealerships, but I suspect everything's on hold until the economy recovers a bit. For all the naysayers still using the "Fix It Again Tony" slang, you should remember what dumpy, oil leaking, rust & electrical problem plagued cars the original Minis were. That's not to mention the "clown car" stereotype or peoples safety concerns. I don't think British cars ever enjoyed the prestige of their more stylish Italian counterparts.
Fiat's have become the Toyotas of Europe. With the Mini market becoming saturated (at least here in Seattle), I think a new premium, quirky hatchback like the Fiat might get a lot of traction.
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
From: San Marcos, CA
Ah to be that old
When I was in college & the Miata had just come out, there was kid with a pink "Monster" Miata that used to park outside the comp-sci building. The Monster kit was a Ford 5.0 v8, I think the pink paint job just put it over the top obnoxious.
Fiat was originally going to be piggybacking their Maserati dealerships, but I suspect everything's on hold until the economy recovers a bit. For all the naysayers still using the "Fix It Again Tony" slang, you should remember what dumpy, oil leaking, rust & electrical problem plagued cars the original Minis were. That's not to mention the "clown car" stereotype or peoples safety concerns. I don't think British cars ever enjoyed the prestige of their more stylish Italian counterparts.
Fiat's have become the Toyotas of Europe. With the Mini market becoming saturated (at least here in Seattle), I think a new premium, quirky hatchback like the Fiat might get a lot of traction.
When I was in college & the Miata had just come out, there was kid with a pink "Monster" Miata that used to park outside the comp-sci building. The Monster kit was a Ford 5.0 v8, I think the pink paint job just put it over the top obnoxious.
Fiat was originally going to be piggybacking their Maserati dealerships, but I suspect everything's on hold until the economy recovers a bit. For all the naysayers still using the "Fix It Again Tony" slang, you should remember what dumpy, oil leaking, rust & electrical problem plagued cars the original Minis were. That's not to mention the "clown car" stereotype or peoples safety concerns. I don't think British cars ever enjoyed the prestige of their more stylish Italian counterparts.
Fiat's have become the Toyotas of Europe. With the Mini market becoming saturated (at least here in Seattle), I think a new premium, quirky hatchback like the Fiat might get a lot of traction.
LoL, those Monster Miata's were made about a mile from here. Just a new name for a Bakersfield "Monster Bug".
Last edited by Dwight Walhood; Aug 4, 2009 at 07:57 PM. Reason: typo
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 273
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From: Hurricane Alley
This was always one of my favorite Alfa's....so cool. Didn't make Motor Trends "Coolest" list. Should have.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/1960-19...-1750-r-fa.htm
http://www.seriouswheels.com/1960-19...-1750-r-fa.htm
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,743
Likes: 5
From: Hot Springs Village, AR
I see quite a few Ferraris, a few Lambos, and the occasional Maserati. In August, around the Concours d' Elegance in Pebble Beach, I see also sorts of exotic classics. It's fun to be on the road then. When did you last see a Stutz Bearcat, or a 1925 Alfa Romeo P2 on the road?
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
From: San Marcos, CA
MOTOR TREND?
This was always one of my favorite Alfa's....so cool. Didn't make Motor Trends "Coolest" list. Should have.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/1960-19...-1750-r-fa.htm
http://www.seriouswheels.com/1960-19...-1750-r-fa.htm
PS: I never did read Motor Trend and still don't.
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 273
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From: Hurricane Alley
How right you are! If memory serves, those old Alfas and 356s were "reliable" cars, but, to get them to really go you had to tinker with them constantly. Remember how to set point gap and dwell with a book of matches and a piece of cigarette cellophane? Wasn't exact, but it would get you home!
PS: I never did read Motor Trend and still don't.
PS: I never did read Motor Trend and still don't.
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
From: San Marcos, CA
PS: Brecht, Escondido, CA.
Last edited by Dwight Walhood; Aug 5, 2009 at 01:21 PM. Reason: Addition
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 273
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From: Hurricane Alley
HA! What was #1, a Yugo? Sorry, I'm in a volcanic foul mood. Just got back from the dealer after having a melted scoop replaced. Instead of the 3 days they stated, it took 8, and to top it all off, the paint don't match. Wrong grade of metallic!! After 1 1/2 yrs. with them, I'm starting to think they couldn't pour s_ _ _ out of a boot with the instructions on the heel!!!
PS: Brecht, Escondido, CA.
PS: Brecht, Escondido, CA.
I feel your pain. I just got mine back Friday after a "return" visit of 8 days. Had it in the shop in June for various things including a melted scoop and cold start chatter (2.5 wks). During this work they evidently cracked the valve cover (oil misting/spraying out). So, they came and got it (Mini Roadside) kept if for 8 days and I too was in a foul mood Friday night when my car and I were finally "reunited" at 10:00 p.m. On top of that they left the MINI logo badge off of the new valve cover.
The new hood scoop was properly painted however and hasn't remelted yet...so I'm trying to remaine positive.
I would not worry to much about other small cars because there just ain't nothing like a Mini Cooper. The Mini is just in a class of its own. The only way any car maker will compete with the Mini is to buy out the company from BMW. Suzuki might advertise "Mightier then the Mini" but it still "AIN"T A Mini" It does not even come close.
The big reason Mini don't sell more then they do is because the dealer network is so spread out. If they had more dealer locations they would sell many more cars then they do.
Ronnie948
The big reason Mini don't sell more then they do is because the dealer network is so spread out. If they had more dealer locations they would sell many more cars then they do.
Ronnie948
The only thing that car may compete against is a Yaris.
Yuck.
Mark
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
From: San Marcos, CA
No actually the #1 coolest was the '62 - '69 AC Shelby Cobra. I wouldn't argue with that choice.
I feel your pain. I just got mine back Friday after a "return" visit of 8 days. Had it in the shop in June for various things including a melted scoop and cold start chatter (2.5 wks). During this work they evidently cracked the valve cover (oil misting/spraying out). So, they came and got it (Mini Roadside) kept if for 8 days and I too was in a foul mood Friday night when my car and I were finally "reunited" at 10:00 p.m. On top of that they left the MINI logo badge off of the new valve cover.
The new hood scoop was properly painted however and hasn't remelted yet...so I'm trying to remaine positive.
I feel your pain. I just got mine back Friday after a "return" visit of 8 days. Had it in the shop in June for various things including a melted scoop and cold start chatter (2.5 wks). During this work they evidently cracked the valve cover (oil misting/spraying out). So, they came and got it (Mini Roadside) kept if for 8 days and I too was in a foul mood Friday night when my car and I were finally "reunited" at 10:00 p.m. On top of that they left the MINI logo badge off of the new valve cover.
The new hood scoop was properly painted however and hasn't remelted yet...so I'm trying to remaine positive.
PS: Threw in the towel and ordered an M7 Ram-2 Scoop today.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,578
Likes: 5
From: Paradise
Top Gear did a segment on it. IIRC, they were impressed with its handling. You might be able to find it on their web page.
Thread Starter
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4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2008
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I still think this thing has a lot going for it. The Abarth is the only one I'd have any interest in. It has a similar "vibe" to the Cooper S: the retro - funky - trendy looks, the history, the idea of it being a "premium" small car, small size and great fuel economy. The interior looks WAY better than the MINI's. I even like the looks, I know many here don't but it has that squat, hug-the-road stance and a tall, upright look, like the old '60's 500 and its many derivatives.
If FIAT/Chrysler can sell the Abarth at a cheaper price than a Cooper S, they may have something. Their main goal, though, should be to make it reliable. FIAT's of old were pieces of crap and many bad memories still exist. The new 500 would have to build up a reputation of bulletproof reliability before many people (me included) would even think of buying one. One hint of reliability problems, rust, etc. and they're sunk. They have some serious image-making to do. I don't know if they can overcome the bad history, people do have pretty short memories, but we'll see...
I'd take one for a test drive, anyway. Wait a couple of model years to see what the long term reliability outlook is. What's the harm?
Maybe BMW/MINI will come up with something new to tempt me by then . . . that's what competition is all about!
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3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Hurricane Alley
Here's a good review (with pictures) of the new Alfa MITO:
http://www.alfabb.com/?p=138i
I must admit, that Alfa nametag has always had a certain "mystique" for me and if they can get this car right (quality wise).....who knows, it might have a chance here in the States...? Not many people gave the Mini much of a chance and we all know how that's turned out.
http://www.alfabb.com/?p=138i
I must admit, that Alfa nametag has always had a certain "mystique" for me and if they can get this car right (quality wise).....who knows, it might have a chance here in the States...? Not many people gave the Mini much of a chance and we all know how that's turned out.
Thread Starter
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4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 362
Likes: 2
Dragging up a old thread, I know - -
But this article from last Saturday's Toronto Star looked like a worthwhile update. Comparisons made to the MINI Cooper, too:
http://www.wheels.ca/newsandfeatures...ming-to-canada
If it's coming to Canada, it's coming to the USA. Sounds like it will be branded as a Chrysler product. Not sure if that's a good idea, although both Fiat and Chrysler brands have their own past history "issues" in the public's perception. Success/failure will hinge on the marketing, I think.
As I said, just "updating" an old thread.
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But this article from last Saturday's Toronto Star looked like a worthwhile update. Comparisons made to the MINI Cooper, too:
http://www.wheels.ca/newsandfeatures...ming-to-canada
If it's coming to Canada, it's coming to the USA. Sounds like it will be branded as a Chrysler product. Not sure if that's a good idea, although both Fiat and Chrysler brands have their own past history "issues" in the public's perception. Success/failure will hinge on the marketing, I think.
As I said, just "updating" an old thread.
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