I'm sure you will learn that out of the million R56's they already made only a handfull make the rattle anyway.

Depends just how big your hands are. There's a steadily growing pile of destroyed low-mileage R-56 turbo motors at our local MINI dealership, and doubtless at others around the country. Each one due to timing chain failure.

I heartily agree with Gil-galad. If you've been fortunate to have a MINI that starts up like it should, great! If your 5-year old kid asks you what's wrong with the car when you fire it up in the morning, or if your neighbor says "I didn't know MINI was selling diesels here in the States", then there's an issue here. And Europe, Australia, Singapore, and Japan. Direct injection, vacuum pumps, and turbo poppet valves are all noisy, and you can indeed hear them, and that's to be expected in a tiny car. After all, you are sitting right next to the motor!

On the other hand, this turbo DOHC, variable valve timing design is similiar to the Honda V-Tec design. Heard any noisy Hondas lately? The camshaft rotation is advanced and retarded in relation to the crankshaft to maximize engine performace, economy, and emissions. The timing chain and associated guides, sprockets and tensioners, are critical design elements of this valve control and must adapt to changing cam rotational geometry from first cold start rotation. Due to the tight TDC clearance at these high compression ratios, there literally isn't room in the cylinder head for both the piston and a valve head should the timing belt/chain break. Hence the use of a metal chain vice the rubber timing belts in the prior Tritec motor.

Since a broken chain equals immediate engine destruction, ANY unusual timing chain noises, particularily metal-on-metal, is cause for serious concern.

Again, if you've got a "normal" motor - great! A lot of us weren't so lucky. My MCS didn't start the "death rattle" until 16,000 miles (currently 25,000).

 

I guess we'll figure it out soon... but you say a "pile" of motors like there are tons of failed motors all over the states... how come nobody here has a failed motor yet?

There's not much we can do except complain. There is no proof that the "death" rattle will cause death. Hopefully, one day, it will... woe be the day for MINI! Free new motor for everybody!

 

Ok i will through my 2 cents in here.
The death rattle is a known issue period. They seem to be some what aware of this issue and i would suspect an resolution is coming. Remember they do not want to get sued in every country.
I am a previous day one owner of the Acura RSX type S, If you look at our club forum it looks alot like this one
there was a database thread about Gear Grinding in 2nd gear. Finaly after oh 2 years acura finaly said ok ok we are fixing it. They issued a silent recall to all dealers and you just had to show up to get your transmission hand rebuilt by the dealer which consisted of a new 2nd gear all new lower than 4th gear syncros a new trainsmission fluid and all that goes with that procedure. If that was not enough we had sunroof issues some were torn on arrival.
This is no to with stand that after 30k plus miles people started to get bent lifters so they issues yet another service bulletin for new springs on the lifters off the s2k. All of this was done very down low like. This is what allowed them to keep there high standing.
So i figure my hand built tranny cost acura 2k parts and labor
my new sunroof cost then close to 1k
my new seats cost them 800
new seat pan another 250
new brakes cause they warped bad another 300
you get my point here.
The dealers atleast finaly admit there is an issue with the cars. We had idk how many lemon cars for the same issue before acura took notice enough to fix the issue.
This in no way excuses mini of not having it right the first time.

Oh and the grinding did blow up a few peoples cars it was not just an annoyance. Some people should up with no 2nd gear left.

This problem apparently on 2nd gen rsx moved to the 3rd gear.

This sound familer performance cars have issues note the base rsx had little to no issues at all just like just a cooper seems non effected by most issues. These are things in my mind i sign up for, I got a car that is more performance it has more tech in it thatn say just a cooper.

But this is just one mans thoughts on the whole idea

 

I have 31k miles on mine (march 07) and the cold start happened once my first winter and only twice this winter.

 

Just passed 10,000 miles and have had no problems described here.

Some weeks my Mini S will sit three days - Starts the same then as it does when it's been warmed up.

 

Even though i am not a Cooper S owner i just have a regular cooper 2007. Put higher octane in the car to prevent engine knock

 

2008 MCS auto, 19,000 miles, 1 year, no rattle.

 

2007 march build MCS, car has been fine until 29,000 miles. now it sounds like a horrible DIESEL TRACTOR over 2000 RPMs at any speed!! took it to the dealer, they said without a doubt timing chain tentioner failure. they said no damage was being done and i can still drive it as normal (as hard as i want) until the parts arrive next week, i have an appointment march 31 to get it repaired by dealer. they said it sounds really terrible but its just vibration.

i have a 100,000 bumper to bumper warranty through geico so im fine either way

 

2007 march build MCS, car has been fine until 29,000 miles. now it sounds like a diesel tractor over 2000 RPMs!! took it to the dealer, they said without a doubt timing chain tentioner failure. they said no damage was being done and i can still drive it as normal (as hard as i want) until the parts arrive next week, i have an appointment march 31 to get it repaired by dealer. they said it sounds really terrible but its just vibration.

i have a 100,000 bumper to bumper warranty through geico so im fine either way

my story here:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...e-driving.html

 

don't know if this has been said or not, but I assume that it has. The issue is a known issue. If something catastrophic happens, MINI will handle it. Mine does it in the morning after it has been cold. The engine sounds like a diesel for 1 minute, then it sounds normal again.

IMHO, it's not really a big deal. annoys me for a minute, then it's over with. Doesn't cause any damage, that MINI knows of.... and if it turns out that it does cause damage, they are liable to repair it.

 

There are many reports in other Cold Start threads here on NAM and in the MINI2 online community of the issue progressing to the point of chain failure (breakage) followed by self-destruction of the engine. This is corroborated by the service department at one west coast dealership that communicated to one MINI owner that they have performed multiple complete engine replacements recently due to chain failure at that one dealership alone.

I guess maybe it's little worry to some as long as you're still under warranty, don't mind being without your MINI for extended periods of time, and can deal with the likelihood of problem re-occurrence...

 

I've got 11,000 miles on my '09 MCS with no rattle.

I'm new here but have looked at the posts on the rattle issue and noticed a lot of back and forth on how widespread the problem is. I looked at the recent car issue of Consumer Reports magazine which, I'm sure all of you know, reports on their annual survey on reliability.

According to the survey results The MINI Cooper S engine for '07 and '08 is much better than average in the category called "major engine problems". For "minor engine problems" the '08 engine is much better than average while the '07 engine is reported to be better than average, one category lower than the '08. The magazine tells us that a better than average score reflects a problem rate of between 1 and 2%

I don't know whether the death rattle would be considered a major or minor engine problem so I include both (I think I would call it major if my car was making the noise) . Furthermore, I am not presenting this information as proof on anything simply for discussion. I would mention, thaough that a prior post on this thread talk about transmission problems in the Acura RSX and sure enough, worse than average and much worse than average scored show up on the chart for that car.

 

Glad you've enjoyed 11,000 problem-free miles.

I attribute the reported CR statistics to several factors:

- While the cold start death rattle has appeared in MINIs of all varieties of mileage on the clock, it does appear from the reports that the problem usually develops over time; thus, some people who might have reported "no problem" when the survey was taken have subsequently been affected

- It's highly likely that many MINI owners have the rattle and just consider the noise to be a quirk of the PSA engine; i.e., not a problem

- It highly likely that even more MINI owners have heard the noise and explained the problem to their local MINI SA, only to be told (and convinced) by them that the noise is "normal." (Incredibly, this apparently continues to be MINI's "standard" answer to customer complaints on this issue, corroborated by reports of same as recently as early this week.)

- There is probably some natural lag between CR's data collection and its publication

For these reasons, the CR rating is most assuredly skewed in MINI's favor. I'm drawing my conclusions based not only on the overwhelming online evidence (extrapolating the percentages to total ownership) but also the fact that BMW has gone to the trouble of re-designing the timing chain tensioner twice and is now performing wholesale swaps of all of the affected parts for owners who are insistent enough about the problem, to wit (courtesy of tinlizzey):

http://majesticphoenix.com/r56/r56_c...ine_fix_lr.jpg

 

Yes, those are good points, Gil-galad. I do expect to see the problem rate increase in future survey results but I am surprised that the 2007 model is still listed as above average. I'd note that the relibility of the Cooper S overall has slipped from well above average to average.

Thanks for your informed reply.

 

Sorry to swim against the tide, but some counterpoints:

It doesn't take a lot of people to generate lots of posts about a problem. I've shown in another thread that a problem happening to less than 1% of MINI owners could generate hundreds of thousands of posts. Therefore, one cannot determine how many MCSs actually have a problem simply by counting the amount of posts.

The MCS has a unique engine note, it doesn't sound like any other car. If I compared the engine noise of my 1995 Honda Civic to my MCS and I didn't know how different the two engines were, I'd think the MCS was making way too much metal-on-metal noise. Not that it actually is, but there's has to be people who are going to hear the noise and think a normal engine noise is abnormal, simply because it's different than what they're used to.

Yes, there is a rattle problem that happens to these cars. However, no-one has any real evidence as to what the problem is, how serious it is, how to fix it, or how many cars it happens to. Any real evidence needs to be more than thousands of posts of people saying "I've heard the noise and it can't be good" and theorizing what the problem could be without any real technical information about the engine (which hasn't been released to the public by BMW/MINI).

Having said that, I'm always open to evidence that will change my mind.

 

Ken - I respectfully disagree with your premise that the "death rattle" issue is just a matter of a few whiney car owners not used to modern engine noises. There is indeed plenty of "real" evidence - defective timing chain tensioner pistons, damaged tensioner faces, many reports of replaced engines, and lemon law buy-backs of vehicles here and in the UK.

I gather by your comments that you are fortunate to have a MINI that hasn't developed the morning start "death rattle". I truly hope your car stays that way. I consider myself qualified to speak as to what's normal for a turbo-powered MINI engine. I own two identical '07 MCS coupes (his and hers). My wife's car starts and purrs like a Honda every time - 18,000 miles. No unusual noises at all. The MINI vacuum pump makes a noisy chuffing sound, the injectors are busy ticking away, and the turbo whines, whirs, and pops. All to be expected.

What is not right is a sound similiar to a bicycle chain being dragged across a metal pipe. My car developed the "death rattle" at 16,000 miles, now 26,000. It truly gets your attention, as in "OMG - what's wrong with my car?!!" Would you buy a used car that sounded like that?

When the neighbor's 8-year old kid asks "What's the matter with your car?", or when someone at the grocery store parking lot walks over and says "I didn't know MINI was importing diesels into the US", you - and BMW/MINI - have a problem. Remember retail sales rule #1 -If the customer has a problem - real or imagined - with your product, you have a problem, period.

The timing chain tensioner assembly on the turbo-powered version of the "Prince" engine has been officially identified by BMW as defective. A repair order has been published - PuMA measure number 10686850-12, released on 2/24/09. A new tensioner piston (part number 11.31.7.598.956) is going into new production and into all '07-'09 cars that exhibit the failed tensioner start-up rattle. This new part features a redesigned tensioner operating piston that contains a stout spring (missing on previous versions) to maintain adequate pressure against the timing chain until the oil system pressurizes the piston. Just like the 58-year old chain tensioner on my 1951 MG!

Here's a link to a parts diagram of the timing chain system:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...31&hg=11&fg=25

Ken, I haven't changed your opinion, but to those of us who do have a MINI that exhibits the morning "death rattle", the problem is real, and BMW is trying to fix it.

 

OldMGuy:
Tried your link and it doesn't work for me. Thanks for all of the information that you have provided on this issue.

 

Ken, I was getting ready to point you to Dr. O's reasoning in Post #879 over in the Cold start chatter thread (with which, BTW, I wholeheartedly agree) but now I see in subsequent posts of yours in that thread that you were not convinced by his view and the subsequent supporting posts.

Even as a non-R56/R55 owner I consider myself somewhat of a student on the issue and have voraciously devoured and objectively weighed data from all available sources for nearly two years -- online communities and periodicals of a variety of ilk, owner and MINI SA testimonials, repair orders, parts listings, word-of-mouth, etc. FWIW, I'm convinced that a significant percentage of the '07 - '08 MINI and Peugeot PSA turbo engines are susceptible to this issue (either today or as they accrue mileage) and that, unmitigated, it can lead to serious engine damage.

I'm also convinced that BMW/MINI believes, from a short-term business and marketing perspective, that they must be evasive in their public relations on the issue. We continue to see this manifested in the lack of any broad announcements, the frequent SA responses that the noise is "normal," and even in the recent MotoringFile interview with MINI USA's Product Manager where he expressed complete ignorance of the issue. We've never seen corporate admission of clearly obvious 1st Gen design weaknesses (e.g., PS Pump and wiring harness, Midlands tranny, strut towers, etc.) and I'm willing to bet that they'll adopt the same approach to the cold start death rattle -- they will continue the practice of making quiet, behind-the-scenes design improvements to what they feel are the offending components. They will install these in newly manufactured vehicles and only back-fit the parts into the MINIs of customers who bring their cars in with the problem. No general recall should be expected. I've heard people claim this is a by-product of German attitudes in automobile enginnering and management, but I have no first-hand knowledge of that.

You might ask why I even care. I guess I just really love the MINI and figure I'll be in line to be a repeat owner at some point, so I have an interest in seeing that the new designs are all they can be. Maybe I'll be around to see the day when BMW/MINI's approach to its existing and, at least for now, loyal customer base assumes a different and better model for the long-term.

 

I wonder if they (we) switched to a heavier viscosity oil would solve the problem. With a 5W20, the oil can be too thin which causes the lifters and timing chain adjuster to "bleed down". If we ran 5W30, I think it would solve a lot of the issues. Most manufacturers actually recommend 5W30 for all-around driving; Mini (BMW) chose 5W20 because of emissions reduction and fuel efficiency (engine has to work less with lighter oil).

Think I'll go with 5W30 synthetic my next earl change and see what happens...

Cheers,

Robb

 

Repaired link:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.d...31&hg=11&fg=25

 

I have no counter arguements to your points, OldMGGuy. I'm not trying to say there isn't a problem, nor am I saying you aren't having a problem that might be serious. All I'm trying to point out that there is no real way of telling how many MINI's have this problem, or the severity of the problem, using only the data that is availible here. I just want to see data more conclusive than statements by 8 year-olds and number of web posts.

 

FYI: Motoringfile has an expose on this subject that may be of interest.

 

I have not had any issues on my S. Maybe once or twice the turbo made that noise but it stopped and never came back.

 

Here's hoping it stays that way. Mine didn't start the "death rattle" until 16,000 miles (now 27,000).

If it does start doing the morning start "death rattle", MINI will now replace the entire timing chain system - tensioner, chain, guides, sprockets, and the Vanos unit under warranty - provided the dealer can hear the rattle. Some dealers are accepting video clips, YouTube files, etc. as proof. Otherwise, you need to leave it at the dealer overnight.

 

Then it's a good thing i live 5 minutes away from my MINI service centre!!!