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R56 LSD Questions (motoring, not tripping) :)

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Old May 19, 2007 | 03:17 AM
  #26  
JT-KGY's Avatar
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From: socal
Originally Posted by 1chaos52
This car will never see a track and will not be used for any kind of racing whatsoever, but may see some limited "spirited driving".

You dont need it...

I think if you're not expecting it when getting on power in mid-corner.. the
torque steer from LSD might do more harm than good...

I dont get how's LSD a safety feature anyways???
 
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Old May 19, 2007 | 05:53 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by JT-KGY
I dont get how's LSD a safety feature anyways???
For me, when my car gets stuck at the end of the driveway in the snow and can't get into the driveway because the wheel with the least grip is spinning away. That is a safety issue.
 
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Old May 19, 2007 | 11:18 PM
  #28  
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From: socal
Originally Posted by manifest
For me, when my car gets stuck at the end of the driveway in the snow and can't get into the driveway because the wheel with the least grip is spinning away. That is a safety issue.
Wouldnt snow tires fix that?? You'll need snow tires right? LSD or not?
 
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Old May 19, 2007 | 11:51 PM
  #29  
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think ASC applies any kind of braking, unless it's changed from r53 to 56. DSC is intelligent and applies brake pressure to prevent the car from spinning or getting into a rollover situation. ASC just cuts engine power/throttle to stop the wheels from spinning, so you don't get yourself into more trouble when they start gripping, at least that's what it does on my r53. Only takes one tight track turn with RPM's not goin up and you got the pedal on the floor to realize you left the ASC on. I have the LSD on my r53 and I'm happy with it. I haven't driven a mini without it hard enough to notice a difference though, and we don't get much snow here in FL to test out the winter traction.
 
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Old May 19, 2007 | 11:55 PM
  #30  
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From: Paradise
Originally Posted by manifest
For me, when my car gets stuck at the end of the driveway in the snow and can't get into the driveway because the wheel with the least grip is spinning away. That is a safety issue.
Originally Posted by JT-KGY
Wouldnt snow tires fix that?? You'll need snow tires right? LSD or not?
Actually, wouldn't ASC take care of whatever LSD was going to do in this case? The difference is that LSD will get more power to the ground more quickly than ASC alone, but that really doesn't matter in snow -- unless you are ice racing.
 
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Old May 20, 2007 | 12:58 AM
  #31  
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From: Central CT
Originally Posted by JT-KGY
Wouldnt snow tires fix that?? You'll need snow tires right? LSD or not?
Originally Posted by Robin Casady
Actually, wouldn't ASC take care of whatever LSD was going to do in this case? The difference is that LSD will get more power to the ground more quickly than ASC alone, but that really doesn't matter in snow -- unless you are ice racing.
It's pretty obvious both of you have never driven in snow . The combination of snow tires, lsd, and traction control in a front wheel drive car make winters a non issue.
 
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Old May 20, 2007 | 01:08 AM
  #32  
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From: Paradise
Originally Posted by manifest
It's pretty obvious both of you have never driven in snow . The combination of snow tires, lsd, and traction control in a front wheel drive car make winters a non issue.
I've driven in snow. There was that time in 1967, and...

Why wouldn't ASC substitute for LSD functions in snow? You are basically trying to keep one wheel from spinning. What else does LSD do for you in snow that ASC doesn't?
 

Last edited by Robin Casady; May 20, 2007 at 01:10 AM.
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Old May 20, 2007 | 08:51 AM
  #33  
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LSD allows the power to be put down to wheel that has traction. Even though the wheel might be spinning ASC cuts the power and then the wheel that has grip moves the car.
 
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Old May 20, 2007 | 08:56 AM
  #34  
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heres what you can do with a LSD


you might go to the dealer and try both out. the first car we did drive without the LSD it started to spin the tires on a RH turn from a stoplight.
personally its worth it for the extra 500 bucks. if you decide that you wanted it later on its going to be 3-4 X that much.

tom
 
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Old May 20, 2007 | 09:17 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by bosfordjd
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think ASC applies any kind of braking, unless it's changed from r53 to 56.
Just a matter of not abusing the car hard enough to find out. Try revving to redline, then sidestepping the clutch to launch. Or don't and just read the manual on page 62,this one from 2002 .

Snow tires and LSD can increase traction, while traction control attempts to make best use of what traction is available. If traction is near zero on ice, then the traction control may make things worse so the manual suggests shutting it off.

LSD is not a safety feature but a performance option. Spinning both driven tires on ice can actually result in that end of the car veering downhill or off the crown of the road (an open differential allows the motionless tire to act as a stabilizing rudder).
 
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Old May 20, 2007 | 09:30 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by RCB01
I was actually discouraged from getting the LSD by my MA as I would be ordering my MCS with DSC. In order for the LSD to really be useful the DSC needs to be turned off. Anyone else heard about this. I am so confused.
My MA also questioned why I'd want to order the LSD since, in his opinion, the DSC was adequate. I grew up driving on black, dirt roads that were extremely challenging after rain. With LSD I would have had traction on both wheels even if one wheel were spinning in mud. Thank goodness I don't have to contend with muddy roads any more, but I do drive on ice a couple of times a year. The same principle applies to driving on ice. Anything that helps me stay in control is worth the extra bucks for me. I got the LSD and passed on the sun roof since I was trying to stay within a budget. The sun roof didn't make much sense to me since the weather gets so hot here in Fort Worth.
 
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Old May 20, 2007 | 09:42 AM
  #37  
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From: Paradise
Originally Posted by bosfordjd
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think ASC applies any kind of braking, unless it's changed from r53 to 56.
From the 2007 Owners Manual:

ASC All-Season Traction Control

ASC prevents slip at the drive wheels while starting off and accelerating the vehicle. This system optimized driving stability and traction, especially when driving off, accelerating and cornering, by reducing engine output and, if necessary, braking the front wheels.

ASC encompasses the following functions:
ABS Antilock Brake System
Brake Assist
Hill Start Assist
 
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Old May 21, 2007 | 04:19 AM
  #38  
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From: Manchester, NH
Originally Posted by BFG9000
When the factory friction diff wears out, it just becomes an open differential; no noise, no odd vibrations, nothing to indicate that anything is amiss, except of course that it no longer works. The reason friction type LSDs are rarely replaced is because most people don't drive hard enough to realize when it's gone dead or even to wear them out.
No offense intended by this BFG9000, but can anyone else confirm this as this is the first time I have heard this stated. If this is the case, that is both a good and bad thing. Good that you don't have to replace parts, but bad in that you may not know the part is not working as intended.
 
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Old May 21, 2007 | 05:44 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by 1chaos52
Again, thanks for the comments. Am hoping someone can comment on durability etc. I will more than likely order it now.

Hey LynnEl, I ahve been trolling in these forums for a long time now and read somewhere that Fizzi just recently arrived. Congrats. Meant to say it earlier but do a lot of reading on this while at work and was unable to respond at the time
Just saw your post & tahnk you!!
 
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Old May 21, 2007 | 05:47 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by minimusprime
Depending on type most lsd's last for about 50-70k with proper maint. (changing the fluid in them)

I forgot which type it is that is in my r53 and thus will be in your r56 but I'm sure it's the better of the two and has a life time around 100k-120k.
Not that I am an expert, but this sounds strange to me. I seriously doubt the lsd has that short of a lifespan (50-70k). Seconds, although it may be true, one should never assume that just because it was on the R53, it will be the same on the R56.
 
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Old May 21, 2007 | 05:56 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Sissy
My MA also questioned why I'd want to order the LSD since, in his opinion, the DSC was adequate. I grew up driving on black, dirt roads that were extremely challenging after rain. With LSD I would have had traction on both wheels even if one wheel were spinning in mud. Thank goodness I don't have to contend with muddy roads any more, but I do drive on ice a couple of times a year. The same principle applies to driving on ice. Anything that helps me stay in control is worth the extra bucks for me. I got the LSD and passed on the sun roof since I was trying to stay within a budget. The sun roof didn't make much sense to me since the weather gets so hot here in Fort Worth.
Suppose it's just coincidence that dealers' lots are full of non-LSD equipped cars and the MA's are saying it's not worth getting? Or is it just because they can't explain it (which is true for just about any technical subject) and you can't see it?
 
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Old May 21, 2007 | 08:59 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by LynnEl
Just saw your post & tahnk you!!
Now I have to hone my whining skills to the Skuzzy level, I am ordering Wednesday or Thursday.:impatient
 
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Old May 21, 2007 | 09:16 AM
  #43  
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I think you should set a more realistic goal. No one can approach the skuzz.
 
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Old May 22, 2007 | 11:23 AM
  #44  
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Miata's have had LSD available since about the very beginning.

I don't think I've ever heard of even ONE failure on the Miata forum. Just doesn't happen.

I'm more concerned that DSC/ASC is gonna cancel out the LSD.....
 
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Old May 22, 2007 | 01:24 PM
  #45  
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From: socal
Originally Posted by Jerome81
Miata's have had LSD available since about the very beginning.

I don't think I've ever heard of even ONE failure on the Miata forum. Just doesn't happen.

I'm more concerned that DSC/ASC is gonna cancel out the LSD.....
I thought only some special packaged miata gets LSDs (at least the early
Miatas). I remember my friend had to really look for it to find one...

What BFG9000 said is that these LSDs will worn out and become open diffs.
They wont explode or prevent you from getting your grocery or something.
And chances are most people won't even notice them not working the
way they should.
 
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Old May 22, 2007 | 01:38 PM
  #46  
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I have a 2000 Miata LS. When I started autocrossing, I found it was difficult to get the rearend out, but after about a half season of owning the car, autocrossing every weekend or every other weekend in different regions, I found I can now kick the tail out easily. I cannot say that I know if it's because the LSD is worn out, or if it's just my learning how to control the car more.

I do know this car is easier to keep in control in a slide than my RX-7 is, which has an open differential, but then, they're completely different suspension setups and the tires on the RX-7 have never been great, so apples-oranges, I think.....

Perhaps I should wait 'till I finish fixing and building the RX-7 to compare....Just needs to run and get a set of wheels and tires, and I'll be happy.
 
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Old May 22, 2007 | 07:20 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by nization
I have a 2000 Miata LS. When I started autocrossing, I found it was difficult to get the rearend out, but after about a half season of owning the car, autocrossing every weekend or every other weekend in different regions, I found I can now kick the tail out easily. I cannot say that I know if it's because the LSD is worn out, or if it's just my learning how to control the car more.

I do know this car is easier to keep in control in a slide than my RX-7 is, which has an open differential, but then, they're completely different suspension setups and the tires on the RX-7 have never been great, so apples-oranges, I think.....

Perhaps I should wait 'till I finish fixing and building the RX-7 to compare....Just needs to run and get a set of wheels and tires, and I'll be happy.
All RWD cars that I've autocrossed have at some time exhibited lift and spin the inside wheel on exit of a tight corner when driving out while that wheel is light. Spectators paying close attention will notice your engine revving faster than it should when that happens and then settle back down (sounds like your clutch is slipping). Once you experience it a couple of times, you'll spot the open diff failing you there, and you'll recognize where LSD could have benefitted you. If you are having trouble inducing oversteer (and thus throttle steer) consider dropping your rear tire pressures , or stiffening the front bar.
I don't believe that LSD will affect balance of understeer vs. oversteer, except that without it, in tandem with a very powerful motor, you might break one tire loose in mid corner. Miata wouldn't have that kind of problem, and RX7 wouldn't have that kind of torque, unless you're in a sweeper with high revs.
 
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Old May 22, 2007 | 07:34 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by karlInSanDiego
All RWD cars that I've autocrossed have at some time exhibited lift and spin the inside wheel on exit of a tight corner when driving out while that wheel is light. Spectators paying close attention will notice your engine revving faster than it should when that happens and then settle back down (sounds like your clutch is slipping). Once you experience it a couple of times, you'll spot the open diff failing you there, and you'll recognize where LSD could have benefitted you. If you are having trouble inducing oversteer (and thus throttle steer) consider dropping your rear tire pressures , or stiffening the front bar.
I don't believe that LSD will affect balance of understeer vs. oversteer, except that without it, in tandem with a very powerful motor, you might break one tire loose in mid corner. Miata wouldn't have that kind of problem, and RX7 wouldn't have that kind of torque, unless you're in a sweeper with high revs.
At SCCA, there was a guy driving a stock Neon and he kicked ***. He was lifting wheels all over the place but he was smoking fast. LSD or not I will never catch him.
 
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Old Jun 5, 2007 | 12:03 AM
  #49  
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From: socal
Found some more comments on the LSD from another thread...

Originally Posted by ltjpunk7
Tell me about it! I gunned it today to get around a slow-moving Caprice on a left hand turn and could barely hold onto the steering wheel. I love the LSD, but man sometimes it scares the $#!@ outta me!
Sorta the same way with my Evo with front LSD but probably less dramatic
then Minis...
 
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Old Jun 5, 2007 | 08:18 AM
  #50  
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Wear out?

What's all this talk about the LSD wearing out?

http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/11/...s_limited_slip

See the above page. The LSD is mechanical only, no friction material. Also, Qaiffe's diff is also a torsen design, all mechanical and thus nothing to wear out.

See this from Qaiffe:
Why do you need Limited Slip (LSD) when you have DSC in you MINI Cooper?? This is because the DSC is designed for 'safety' at the limits while the LSD is designed for improved performance. When the MINI Cooper DSC detects traction loss at a wheel, the system scrubs energy (applies the brakes) to restore traction at that wheel. In comparison, when a Quaife LSD detects traction loss, it transfers the energy from the wheel losing traction to the wheel with traction, to continue controlled motion of your MINI Cooper. The difference is the 'transfer' of energy instead of 'scrubbing' energy. For high performance driving, Quaife LSD is the answer. The Quaife Differential powers both drive wheels under nearly all conditions, instead of just one. With an ordinary open differential, standard on most cars, a lot of precious power is wasted during wheelspin under acceleration. This happens because the open differential shifts power to the wheel with less grip (along the path of least resistance). The Quaife, however, does just the opposite. It senses which wheel has the better grip, and biases the power to that wheel. It does this smoothly and constantly, and without ever completely removing power from the other wheel.
In drag-race style, straight-line acceleration runs, this results in a close to ideal 50/50 power split to both drive wheels, resulting in essentially twice the grip of an ordinary differential (they don't call open diffs "peglegs" for nothing).
In cornering, while accelerating out of a turn, the Quaife biases power to the outside wheel, reducing inside-wheel spin. This allows the driver to begin accelerating earlier, exiting the corner at a higher speed.
The Quaife also controls loss of traction when the front wheels are on slippery surfaces such as ice and snow or mud, providing the appropriate biased traction needed to overcome these adverse conditions. The Quaife Differential provides constant and infinitely variable drive. Power is transferred automatically without the use of normal friction pads or plates seen in other limited-slip designs.
The Quaife's unique design offers maximum traction, improves handling and steering, and puts the power where it is needed most. A definite advantage whether on the track or on the street.
The Quaife is extremely strong and durable and since the Quaife is gear operated, it has no plates or clutches that can wear out and need costly replacement
The Quaife is great for street driving or racing. Racers don't have to put up with locking mechanisms or spools that tear the steering wheel out of their hands when cornering. Because it behaves like an open differential during ordinary driving, street drivers will have trouble telling it's there until pushing the car's limits.
The Quaife has been proven in everything from SCCA Rally to Formula 1. It provides autocrossers with such an advantage, it has become "required" equipment for a winning effort.
As for performance versus safety, it does both. For those saying to just get snow tires, which would you rather have, power applied to only one snow tire or to two?

BTW, howdy everyone, wifey and I will be ordering an '07 S once we finalize options. Right now we can't decide whether we want the sunroof added to our huge list of options or not.
 
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