R55 Wow! Hyundai had me worried!
#26
And then I went and checked what is, to me, THE critical spec. for overall performance of ANY vehicle: How much does it weigh? The Hyundai is a porky 3,300+ lbs. - about 450 lbs. heavier than my Clubbie!! What is the fuel mileage? 21/30 - Bummer!! Keep in mind, 8 lbs. = 1 hp. For every 8 lbs. you can shave off a vehicle, it provides the same acceleration improvement as adding 1 hp. 450 lbs./8 = 56 hp. So now the Hyundai doesn't look so powerful anymore. And hauling that extra weight exacts other penalties, of course.
Deal breaker!! Imagine hauling 3 averaged-size folks in your Clubbie S all the time. What would that do to your perfomance, handling, responsiveness, fuel mileage, braking distances, etc.?? It would KILL them, that's what.
As Colin Chapman of Lotus fame once proclaimed "Add lightness..." Weight is the ENEMY of high-performance and efficiency. If you take 450 lbs. off of ANY car out there, it is the same as adding 56 hp and fitting Brembo brakes. It will also result in huge savings in gas usage.
Man, those Koreans had me sweating bullets for a coupla minutes. If they ever figure out how to shave 300-400 lbs. off that paltform, I'd buy one in a heartbeat...
Deal breaker!! Imagine hauling 3 averaged-size folks in your Clubbie S all the time. What would that do to your perfomance, handling, responsiveness, fuel mileage, braking distances, etc.?? It would KILL them, that's what.
As Colin Chapman of Lotus fame once proclaimed "Add lightness..." Weight is the ENEMY of high-performance and efficiency. If you take 450 lbs. off of ANY car out there, it is the same as adding 56 hp and fitting Brembo brakes. It will also result in huge savings in gas usage.
Man, those Koreans had me sweating bullets for a coupla minutes. If they ever figure out how to shave 300-400 lbs. off that paltform, I'd buy one in a heartbeat...
Your forgeting how big this car is. It's the size of a G37, but yet weights 300 pounds less than the G37 (which is 3600+lb)
The more important spec you have to look at is power to weight ratio. The Genesis Coupe has a 11.0 lb/ hp ratio.
#27
#28
Except... the Hyundai is RWD, and MINIs are FWD. In good road conditions, the RWD characteristics tend to be more favoured.
The Hyundai is a pretty good value proposition, and from what I've read, performs well for its price and has tuning potential. However, the MINI cannot really be compared--the Hyundai is in a different category of car. It's a GT sports car, whereas the MINI is more of a sporty hot hatch (with, perhaps, exception of the JCW).
Except I live in a place where yes, indeed, it does snow sometimes... so RWD as a primary car is out. :(
The Hyundai is a pretty good value proposition, and from what I've read, performs well for its price and has tuning potential. However, the MINI cannot really be compared--the Hyundai is in a different category of car. It's a GT sports car, whereas the MINI is more of a sporty hot hatch (with, perhaps, exception of the JCW).
Except I live in a place where yes, indeed, it does snow sometimes... so RWD as a primary car is out. :(
Last edited by carsncars; 03-30-2009 at 01:37 PM.
#29
Hyundai is taking up a market segment that was abandoned long ago by the mainstream Japanese manufacturers in this country. This car is perhaps what the Toyota Celica/Supra or Honda Prelude should have been if they were still offered today.
I do not think it is a bad car at all. Simply, RWD GT coupes have never been my cup of tea, but well done they can be amazing cars in their own right.
Honda, Toyota and Nissan to some extent have become the defacto purveyors of "me too" looking bland mobiles aimed at the lowest common denominator in the market.
I do not think it is a bad car at all. Simply, RWD GT coupes have never been my cup of tea, but well done they can be amazing cars in their own right.
Honda, Toyota and Nissan to some extent have become the defacto purveyors of "me too" looking bland mobiles aimed at the lowest common denominator in the market.
#30
It depends. The MINI is a remarkably well balanced FWD car and the rear suspension setup is the same multilink architecture found in RWD BMWs, namely, the 3 series.
I have never owned a RWD car, but sure I haven't had the urge to run and get one. Perhaps one day. The 1-3 Series Bimmers and even the Pontiac G8 GT are pretty intriguing RWD machines.
But to me personally, the hype surrounding RWD for everyday street driving is a little too overcooked IMHO.
I have never owned a RWD car, but sure I haven't had the urge to run and get one. Perhaps one day. The 1-3 Series Bimmers and even the Pontiac G8 GT are pretty intriguing RWD machines.
But to me personally, the hype surrounding RWD for everyday street driving is a little too overcooked IMHO.
Except... the Hyundai is RWD, and MINIs are FWD. In good road conditions, the RWD characteristics tend to be more favoured.
The Hyundai is a pretty good value proposition, and from what I've read, performs well for its price and has tuning potential. However, the MINI cannot really be compared--the Hyundai is in a different category of car. It's a sports car, whereas the MINI is more of a sporty hot hatch.
Except I live in a place where yes, indeed, it does snow sometimes... so RWD as a primary car is out. :(
The Hyundai is a pretty good value proposition, and from what I've read, performs well for its price and has tuning potential. However, the MINI cannot really be compared--the Hyundai is in a different category of car. It's a sports car, whereas the MINI is more of a sporty hot hatch.
Except I live in a place where yes, indeed, it does snow sometimes... so RWD as a primary car is out. :(
#32
I am not dismissing the Hyundai for any other reason than the looks dont appeal to me. They are probably a good car an until I did some research on one I would never speak negatively about them unless I had some pertinent facts or had experienced the car so I could offer an opinion. While my comment was dismissive and intended to be humorous I was directing my remarks about the styling.
#34
Both Kia and Hyundai are using the exact same business model as the old Japanese brands - price your cars low at first to generate sales, then as word of mouth grows about reliability & quality, introduce better and better cars at good price points until you dominate the market. Everything old is new again, as They Might Be Giants say...
Truth be told though, I've never owned any of the above. And I love my MINI.
#35
KBB says $4700 for a 2.4L LX 2.4L w/ no options (base base) and they're selling for more than that around here.
I also got offered practicially nothing when I went to trade in my car (not a Hyundai or Kia - good old GM). That's how dealers work.
I have no problem with anyone disliking a car because of how it looks, drives, or is priced. But general brand bias - come on. Luckily, more and more people realize quality and value when they see it which is why I still have a job and so many of my neighbors don't.
I also got offered practicially nothing when I went to trade in my car (not a Hyundai or Kia - good old GM). That's how dealers work.
I have no problem with anyone disliking a car because of how it looks, drives, or is priced. But general brand bias - come on. Luckily, more and more people realize quality and value when they see it which is why I still have a job and so many of my neighbors don't.
Oh man, I wish I never read this. I don't think I'll be able to keep myself away from at least test driving one when they hit our shores.
#36
Both Kia and Hyundai are using the exact same business model as the old Japanese brands - price your cars low at first to generate sales, then as word of mouth grows about reliability & quality, introduce better and better cars at good price points until you dominate the market. Everything old is new again, as They Might Be Giants say...
It's a shame that a car like the Genesis has to overcome twenty-plus years' worth of public perception & attitudes regarding Hyundai as the "cheap Korean option".
#37
Agreed. Hyudai's even succeeded at matching the blandness of the Camry and Corolla!
That being said (excluding the new Genesis coupe), if you're looking for reliable wheels that'll get you from A to B, and aren't looking to sell it short term, Hyundai has some pretty compelling offers. And that 10-year warranty doesn't hurt.
That being said (excluding the new Genesis coupe), if you're looking for reliable wheels that'll get you from A to B, and aren't looking to sell it short term, Hyundai has some pretty compelling offers. And that 10-year warranty doesn't hurt.
#38
30 years ago, I (secretly) laughed at folks who railed against "that *** crap". I had already been enjoying the quality, dependability, power, and sophisitcation of Japanese motorcycles for several years. And I knew it was just a matter of time before they "stole our lunch money" in the auto industry, too.
And I see exactly the same thing today with Kia and Hyundai. Those of you who would dismiss the Genesis out of hand because it is "Korean Krap" do so at their own peril. From everything I can see and read, these are good, solid, and maybe even spectacular vehicles being sold at VERY aggressive prices.
The fact that the Genesis is rear-wheel drive is a good thing. ALL of BMW's sport coupes and sedans are rear wheel drive. And they are world renowned for their excellent road manners and great driver feedback. Hyundai is looking to steal some of that market, and I believe they will succeed.
As I originally posted, if that Genesis coupe was just 300-400 lbs. lighter, you'd be looking at a world-beater in a very high-performance, cost-effective package.
And I see exactly the same thing today with Kia and Hyundai. Those of you who would dismiss the Genesis out of hand because it is "Korean Krap" do so at their own peril. From everything I can see and read, these are good, solid, and maybe even spectacular vehicles being sold at VERY aggressive prices.
The fact that the Genesis is rear-wheel drive is a good thing. ALL of BMW's sport coupes and sedans are rear wheel drive. And they are world renowned for their excellent road manners and great driver feedback. Hyundai is looking to steal some of that market, and I believe they will succeed.
As I originally posted, if that Genesis coupe was just 300-400 lbs. lighter, you'd be looking at a world-beater in a very high-performance, cost-effective package.
#39
Someone wrote:
>> The more important spec you have to look at is power to weight ratio. The Genesis Coupe has a 11.0 lb/ hp ratio.<<
That only determines the acceleration capability. I am also looking at braking performance, vehicle turn-in, and overall handling dynamics. Lighter weight is ALWAYS better *except* if you're looking for a marshmallow-smooth ride. Then, having 400 more lbs. of "road-hugging weight" (name that commercial!!) could be of benefit. But it can also be achieved with a longer wheelbase and re-calibrated spring/shock specs....
>> The more important spec you have to look at is power to weight ratio. The Genesis Coupe has a 11.0 lb/ hp ratio.<<
That only determines the acceleration capability. I am also looking at braking performance, vehicle turn-in, and overall handling dynamics. Lighter weight is ALWAYS better *except* if you're looking for a marshmallow-smooth ride. Then, having 400 more lbs. of "road-hugging weight" (name that commercial!!) could be of benefit. But it can also be achieved with a longer wheelbase and re-calibrated spring/shock specs....
#40
My qualm with Kia is that their line-up is just plain fugly, IMO. And all their cars just feel kinda cheap.
I think Hyundai makes some really nice looking, high quality cars, but the resale value is complete garbage. Which really sucks because that's the one thing stopping me from buying a Tib as a second car in the future (I'll never give up the MINI).
I think Hyundai makes some really nice looking, high quality cars, but the resale value is complete garbage. Which really sucks because that's the one thing stopping me from buying a Tib as a second car in the future (I'll never give up the MINI).
#42
#43
That only determines the acceleration capability. I am also looking at braking performance, vehicle turn-in, and overall handling dynamics. Lighter weight is ALWAYS better *except* if you're looking for a marshmallow-smooth ride. Then, having 400 more lbs. of "road-hugging weight" (name that commercial!!) could be of benefit. But it can also be achieved with a longer wheelbase and re-calibrated spring/shock specs....
I think part of the Genesis Coupe's weight has to do with the fact it is 27" longer than a Clubman. Yes, 27" (182 vs 155). Lots of extra steel. Look at the Tiburon - only 18" longer and the weight goes down 300 lbs.
BTW, the Z4 is only 161 inches and the convertible version weighs almost 3200 lbs. Now if only BMW could learn to take the weight out of their cars...
Just having some fun here, throwing in examples as to why one measurement is not enough - which I know you know. I too am a fan of lightness! Let's get back to fiberglass (or glass fibre), or go forward to carbon fibre.
#44
Yes but
Just playin' with ya! But with the really long warranties nowadays, it's possible to buy a couple of year old car and still have coverage... I keep looking at 3 year old JKRs... Sweet lines, ususally have pretty low mileage, and are still under warranty!
Matt
#45
LotusLight wrote:
>> Now if only BMW could learn to take the weight out of their cars...<<
If only ALL vehicles were lighter, we'd benefit immensely - better gas mileage, higher performance, less wear and tear on our crumbling roads and bridges, etc.
Someone else posited that I must really love a Smart Car because it's only 1800 lbs. I park near one most every day and I keep looking for that back seat and rear storage area and I have yet to find it...I DO love the Smart car for its parsimonious use of sheetmetal and its low weight. And for most folks commuting back and forth to work it is plenty of car.
Unfortunately, Americans are a damn greedy lot, and most feel it is their birthright to be wrapped in 18 feet of sheetmetal with seating for 7 all the while getting a whopping 14-15 mpg transporting a single passenger on his/her way to/from work. It makes me sick when I look about me and see the composition of the vehicles in traffic and the under-utilization of all those seats.
Frankly, the single best thing the Federal govt. could do, right now while gas proces are down, is to slap a $0.25 - $0.50 tax on every gallon of gas purchased. That would go a long way towards getting folks off the dime and into much more sensible vehicles. Plus, it would provide much needed funding for improving our aforementioned roads and bridges...
>> Now if only BMW could learn to take the weight out of their cars...<<
If only ALL vehicles were lighter, we'd benefit immensely - better gas mileage, higher performance, less wear and tear on our crumbling roads and bridges, etc.
Someone else posited that I must really love a Smart Car because it's only 1800 lbs. I park near one most every day and I keep looking for that back seat and rear storage area and I have yet to find it...I DO love the Smart car for its parsimonious use of sheetmetal and its low weight. And for most folks commuting back and forth to work it is plenty of car.
Unfortunately, Americans are a damn greedy lot, and most feel it is their birthright to be wrapped in 18 feet of sheetmetal with seating for 7 all the while getting a whopping 14-15 mpg transporting a single passenger on his/her way to/from work. It makes me sick when I look about me and see the composition of the vehicles in traffic and the under-utilization of all those seats.
Frankly, the single best thing the Federal govt. could do, right now while gas proces are down, is to slap a $0.25 - $0.50 tax on every gallon of gas purchased. That would go a long way towards getting folks off the dime and into much more sensible vehicles. Plus, it would provide much needed funding for improving our aforementioned roads and bridges...
#46
With new cars you're just getting problems that are all your own!
Just playin' with ya! But with the really long warranties nowadays, it's possible to buy a couple of year old car and still have coverage... I keep looking at 3 year old JKRs... Sweet lines, ususally have pretty low mileage, and are still under warranty!
Matt
Just playin' with ya! But with the really long warranties nowadays, it's possible to buy a couple of year old car and still have coverage... I keep looking at 3 year old JKRs... Sweet lines, ususally have pretty low mileage, and are still under warranty!
Matt
#47
#48
Frankly, the single best thing the Federal govt. could do, right now while gas proces are down, is to slap a $0.25 - $0.50 tax on every gallon of gas purchased. That would go a long way towards getting folks off the dime and into much more sensible vehicles. Plus, it would provide much needed funding for improving our aforementioned roads and bridges...
I have read the govt is looking for more ways to stimulate car purchases THIS year. Another approach is to provide a $5,000 rebate for the PURCHASE (not lease) of a new car which gets say, 30% better mpg using EPA estimates, than the car you are selling. Not really complicated - to get the rebate, you must provide proof of sale within 60 days of the purchase AND the car you are selling must have been registered in your name for at least 3 years (provide registration documents or title - avoids buyers going out and buying an old gas hog for $100 to get a $5k rebate). I don't know about you, but $5k is a pretty big incentive and would greatly speed fleet turnover. That would help out Detroit and be a tiny fraction of what AIG got.
#49
#50
there is an article on the coupe in the last issue of
Autoweek (march 23rd issue). Here are some quotes: "Hyundai's new coupe will rattle windows in Tokyo and Munich." While it's named the Genesis, it "only shares the rear subframe, rear suspension and ZF six-speed automatic transmission with the sedan." "After a day spent lapping the shirt, tight Streets of Willow racetrack in So Cal, along with a short drive over some nearby two-lane highways, we can say that the new coupe felt taut, responsive and downright fun." "the Genesis coupe was more than we expected." "we did all of our laps with the traction and stabillity control off, yet we rarely felt the rear end get squirrelly. It's a well-balanced car." The Track Pack "includes 19" wheels with summer Bridgestone treads around 225/40 front and 245/40 rear, upgraded Brembo brakes with 340 mm vented discs grabbed by four-pot monoblock calipers, a LSD and a "track-tuned" suspension."
Also in elsewhere in that issue, it was noted that the Hyundai Elantra cracked the list of the top 10 best selling cars for Feb. Hyundai is one of 4 car companies showing growth, has year on year mothly sales growth of 15% (Jan numbers) and is growing in market share in a declining market. Some of this is the Hyundai Assurance program (loose your job and they'll help with payments or buy the car back), some is the excellent warranty, and some is much improved automotive offerings. These aren't the Excels of the past or the early tin that they first brought to the US.
At a press event last year, I drove a couple versions of the Sonata. It was as good as the Honda Accord and the Camry, at price points that were lower.
Like the style or not, Hyundai is a company that knows what it's doing, has embarked on continuous improvement, and has the sales numbers that deserve respect, not derision.
Matt
Also in elsewhere in that issue, it was noted that the Hyundai Elantra cracked the list of the top 10 best selling cars for Feb. Hyundai is one of 4 car companies showing growth, has year on year mothly sales growth of 15% (Jan numbers) and is growing in market share in a declining market. Some of this is the Hyundai Assurance program (loose your job and they'll help with payments or buy the car back), some is the excellent warranty, and some is much improved automotive offerings. These aren't the Excels of the past or the early tin that they first brought to the US.
At a press event last year, I drove a couple versions of the Sonata. It was as good as the Honda Accord and the Camry, at price points that were lower.
Like the style or not, Hyundai is a company that knows what it's doing, has embarked on continuous improvement, and has the sales numbers that deserve respect, not derision.
Matt