I assume BMW treats MINI just as Ford treats the Ford line and the Mecury line of cars. In other words, they are two totally different lines of vehicles owned by the same corporations.

Mecury has always been the premium brand while Ford the plebian brand. This might not be a good example but I think the Cougar was more upscale than the Mustang.

I would assume BMW does NOT want to take customers from its BMW business line ... the more expensive the car, usually the greater the profit. Its all about money.

 

See American automakers have it set up where they have the same car under two badges and one is supposed to be more upscale, I think of MINI being a bare bones BMW and something that is priced to be at the level below the 3 series, then contiue up from there. They've made a different charater for it but it is a rather homogonazied car the 56 even more so that the 50/53. Its a 3 series wiring harness, the engine bay has a BMW hand in the engineering across the board on the 56. Why do you think MINI is always treated lower when you go in for service? Its the lowest BMW out there.

Its not a competing model however I do think that they are taking full atvantage of this "poor mans BMW" saying thats out there though.

 

"WHY doesn't MINI make a REAL hotrod?"


It already is a little hotrod... Considering it's FWD and has a whooping 1.6L engine.. This car is already pretty optimized in factory form. A few easy minor mods is all that's needed to keep the car "balanced". Anyone can add HP to a car.. big deal.. Twin charging and NOS.. is not what makes a mini fun.. It's all about balance, nimble handling with the right amount of power to keep a "balanced" package.
Thats what makes the mini special!

I have done my share of modding.. In almost every car I modded... It was always for more power.. sure I did some handling mods.. but the end results were never totally rewarding as I ended up changing the car to be something it was never designed for.

A very well respected friend of mine and aftermarket tuner... told me...
"If you want a fast car, buy a fast car"
Simple words... but very true to the point..

The only car I ever owned that I felt no need to mod and was the very best in performance, handling was the Z06. Never did a single mod to it and it was awesome in every respect... never worried about warranty issues either!

 

Agreed. While the BMW's handle well and all.. they are still based on strut designed suspensions.. not exactly race car material. They need a good SLA up front.. They make a great family sedan.. but are lacking in true sports car territory..

 

One other thing to ponder... it wasn't that long ago that a 6.4sec 0-60 run was in muscle car territory.. Go back in time 20 years with a MCS and you would embarass many off the line.. and certainly in the twisties.

Remember the MG's and triumph and Jag... look up some of the specs on these so called "pure" sport cars... The mini does really well.. especially considering it limitations and price.

 

Have you ever driven an M5 ?

I had the chance to hurl one around a track, and boy does that thing handly nicely, grip levels are out of this world and the power delivery is not only silky smooth but seemingly endless too. The suspension is so well controlled and well behaved, it is astonishing.

The limiter is set to 155mph or thereabouts and really hs no effect on the average (?) M car buyer, there are very few places to exploit even that speed......

 

The M5 is a monster on the track. But it's expensive.

Further all of the M series BMWs are expensive to insure while the MINI is quite reasonable even with mods.

On a short track using R compound tires in my area we have no trouble keeping up with BMW M3 series with R compound tires. Different story if there were longer straightaways or a bigger loop.

At autocross our modded MINIs can hold our own against all BMWs modded or not. Not bad for a little car that runs about $25K.

Funny, adding the hotrod type mods may not get a MINI that much faster laptimes or autocross run times unless the driver can make use of those upgrades. Don't assume the faster times will come because the car is "easier" to drive. In fact the opposite is often true. As more power is available, the driver must apply the right balance of skill to allow for better performance. No small feat and easier said than done.

As far as I'm concerned, dollar or dollar, stock MINIs rule for how much they can do. Adding R compound tires helps.

 

I have been to BMW performance driving school.. We ran M3's around the track.. The M5 is a tank. hurling 4200lbs around a track is not fun.. I wouldn't want to run one around a track.. On the Hwy it would be a great ride..
Have you ever run a Z06 around the track? Try it sometime.. it's light powerful and has the suspension designed for it.
BMWs handle really well.. but are limited at the track due to their suspensions and weight..

 

I don't think BMW worries so much about MINI's taking 3 series sales so much as they worry about the brand remaining profitable. They have no problem selling every Cooper and S around, they make jsut enough JCW to keep up with demand but really it's a very small percentage of MINI sales that have the Works. They managed to keep the GP exclusive to keep demand higher than supply, but really they didn't have to invest too much into the developement of the GP, mostly a different paint color and turning the performance up a notch. But already we're looking at a $32K for a performance car and the market for 30K-40K performance cars is a lot different than the sub-30K market. Basically at that price they're fighting for a market share from EVO's, STi's, better equipped 350Zs, and Mustangs, but offering performance on par with the Mazdaspeed3 and the upcoming Caliper SRT4 by having a 300hp lightwiegh FWD car. They'd be lucky to sell enough to justify the cost of developement.

 

I'm not into the autocross thing, but in three years I owned it, I tracked my MCS heavily.

I know it's sacreligious to say this but when you start running an MCS (even a nicely modded one) against an M3 or an M5 with an experienced driver, the MCS starts to show its shortcomings.

Oh, it's true that an MCS can carry alot of speed into the turns, but its hard to stay competitive on any track where the more powerful cars can build some speed in the straights.

I've read a lot of posts about guys (and I'm not talking about you Minihune) on this forum bragging about taking it to Porsches and STis at the track (ahem) on an open track day.

If that's the yardstick your using to validate the trackworthiness of these cars, you're doing the Mini and it's owners a disservice. I can put my wife in my MR and thrash her all day long at Laguna Seca in my work truck.........but what's the point?

The first track day I ran in my MR, on a track I had been to at least a dozen times in my MCS, I beat my best MCS lap time by 5 seconds. By the end of this year that time had grown to 8 seconds.

Comparable 'ring times:

BMW M5 - 8:13
BMW M3 - 8:22
EVO IX - 8:11
STi - 8:24
MCS JCW: 8:55
R32: 8:32

OK forget the the long track - compare the Hockenheim times for various cars:

BMW M5 - 1.17
BMW M3 - 1.16
EVO 8 - 1.17
STi - 1.17
MCS JCW- 1.22

Please don't get me wrong, the R53 MCS is a lot of bang for the buck and a overachiever at most motorsports, but with driver skill being equal it will have issues hanging with the cars listed above.

With the new R56 out, Mini has an engine that should easier and less expensive to wring more horsepower out of. A true factory hot rod would be great.

 

If you're looking to extract Corvette Z06 performance from a MINI, (ANY MINI), you're really wasting your time and money. You've been disillusioned...

Wake up call: we drive MINI's... these cars are in many ways, David to the Goliaths out there on the road, but they are not invincible.

I like what one of the previous poster said, "If you want a fast car, buy a fast car". If you want Z06 performance, you should buy a Z06.

Can't afford a Z06, hey, I can appreciate that, me too! But I wasn't under the illusion that I could buy a MCS, throw in a pulley, intake and exhaust, and it would magically be on the same level as a Z06 or an STI...

Face the facts, our MINI's are autocrossing, twisty-road monsters, but they are not drag racing cars. They are not meant to compete with Z06's on the straightaways. They can't, and never will.

There's no replacement for displacement. That is the motto of any muscle car owner, and there's something to that! Our MINI's are so "stunted" right from the factory with a tiny 1.6 liter engine driving the front wheels, that we can NEVER, EVER be considered a muscle car, (nor should we!!!).

If you want a muscle car, buy a Mustang GT, Shelby GT 500, Charger SRT-8, or the new Challenger or Camaro coming out.

Let's end the illusion. Learn and accept our MINI's strong suits, and let's not try to make them into something that they can't ever be. To do so would mean wasting money, and never achieving that goal.

I'm not pessimistic; I prefer to consider it to be realistic.

 

I do not. I think that may just be MINI loyalty thinking they are really a BMW when they are not. They are a marque owned by a corporation.

Its not "quite" the same thing but your treated poorly at the dealer in the same way a Chevy owner may be treated at a GM dealer also selling Caddilacs.

More appropriate would be Ford owning Jaguar. BMW owns MINI ... it doesnt make MINI anymore a BMW than a Jaguar a Ford.

Very True. But that doesn't answer my fundamental question of why doesn't MINI build a fast car? The enthusiasts would drool over it.

Those are the naive people who are clueless. You got people out there afraid of getting dust on their shiny finishes

I guess its asking to much for MINI to make the equivalent of a GT3-RS or Exige Cup car.

 

That's a given....well hopefully most people realize this.

As you well know, throw in a few straights with those twisties and the MCS is sucking exhaust on *egad* the R32. That's the whole point of posting comparative apples to apples track times. Look at the R32 time on the Nurburgring, it's a full 23 seconds faster.

Johnnie, the point of this thread isn't to make a 1/4 mile monster, but a factory car that can build on the Minis excellence in the twisties with some hp to make up some speed on the straights.

The M3, the STi, the EVO, the P-Cars weren't built to be drag strip monsters - but all around performers. Can we not agree that with a few improvements in some select areas, Mini could have a world class all-around car on their hands?

Look what Subaru and Mitsubishi are putting out for around 35K - relatively small displacement, all wheel drive cars that out-accelerate, outbrake and outhandle any MCS made to date - hell - look at the Mazdasport 3 for the love of Pete. If Mini put their minds to it with the new R56 platform, they should be able to churn out a similar factory car.

 

As usual, Skip nailed it right on the head. Maybe I didn't say it correctly in the first post. Many MINI owners make fun at the Japanese cars but hey ... they fact is they ARE fast and have some racing heritage to back it up.

I've joked about the RAV4 doing 0 - 60 in 6.3 but in all seriousness, the fact is that it is faster than any OEM MCS and on par with a JCW. I "know" (having owned both) this bulky SUV is JUST as quick as my JCW was. Sure, first corner and its in the weeds but it was CHEAPER by far and can haul far more stuff. I find that a bit sad.

Nobody asked for a drag car or muscle car. True sports car excel at ALL facets of driving ... power, brakes, suspensions, etc. That is why the Ring is THE ultimate test of any car. The reason ALL the car makers go there to test ... against the BEST. Everytime I hear ... oh you can't compare a MINI at the Ring I think BS ... because then it will never be something at least I would like to see ...

Just take ONE facet of a MINI ... the brakes. What do ppl rush to do? A BBK? WHY? Why doesn't the car come OEM with great brakes to begin with (my "hotrod" version)?

Both my wife and I LIKE the fact the MINI is small, easy to park, easy to use around town, fair gas mileage. She LOVED the idea of a cabrio as a runabout. And hey ... checkers are cool The ability to have fun throwing graphics on a car that on other cars ... you'd get shot for just mentioning it ... is fun. But if you want to get rid of the "clown car" image, MINI "could" build a little monster ... but I guess its not in the cards.

 

Look at what you are comparing.. The RAV-4 has a DOHC V6 with 269 HP..
My son has one.. its quick for sure.. but what does it have to do with the mini?
(btw... love the small steering wheel and the electronic AWD up to 25mph).

The mini is a FWD 1.6L. Again.. it's a balanced package at a great price..Sure they can make a AWD version with a more powerful motor... but at what cost?
Anything can be made to go fast... it's creating a car that can go, stop and handle at a cost people won;t balk at.

 

the closest thing to a hot rod mini that is sold at the dealer right now is the fireballed Mini's at SouthBay. They are around 40k...still no one has bought them. Maybe if mini makes a hot rod, no one will buy it because of the price? hmm.... idk

 

Apples to oranges - the Fireballed! Mini is not a fully warranteed factory car.

 

This is the crux of the value proposition for the MINI. BMW tapped into a segment with the MINI that provides incremental new sales and hopefully will lead to MINI buyers moving up to BMWs in the future. The challenge is to position the MINI to compete within its segment while not taking sales away from the rest of the BMW line. If you want more performance, there are the Z4s (up to and including the M incarnations). There is a bit of a styling trade-off between the MINI and the Z4, but that is another matter. If you want more passenger carrying ability or AWD, there are other options within the BMW models.

 

The EVO IX has the 4G63 (a 2.0 liter-turbocharged engine for all you stuck on displacement), stiffer seam welded chassis, true lightweight BBS rims, real performance tires, stock brembos on all four corners, stock bilsteins, AWD w/ LSD, recaros, and world class performance starting at $29K. It out-performs the Mini in every category - yes slalom, yes skidpad, yes lane change - do we need to go on? Shall we also expound on the STi? How about the last gen R32?

There are fully warranteed factory versions of the EVO (google the FQ series) rated for 400 hp.

Again, stop making it sound like people are asking for a drag demon. The question remains, if other car companies can create a reasonably affordable factory all around all-star - why shouldn't Mini be able to?

Does anyone seriously think that either the JCW or the GP, represent the maximum performance that could have been wrung from the R53 platform or the Tritec Engine?

Look at what relatively small tuners like M7, Webb, fireballed! and Helix in this community have done with their modest R&D budgets - better performing heads, better intakes, better ECU solutions, better intercoolers all at relatively competitive prices. I personally think that Mini can acheive this and more if they wanted to, if they put their minds to it and if they made the effort.

 

It's true many of the examples of better hotrod factory cars made are better hotrods than the factory MINIs we have now.

It's also true that in order for those cars to perform their best requires a good amount of driving skill. So if you put really experienced drivers in those faster cars it "would be" difficult for our MINIs to keep up. Fortunately very skilled drivers are in the minority compared to the numbers of less skilled drivers that own those fast hotrod cars.

Autocross is a different event with speeds limited to highway speed limits and many many turns or elements over a very short course. It favors the moderately powered highly agile car driven well. Lotus Elise, Honda S2000, Toyota MR2, MCS, BMW M3, Datsun 240Z all can do well.

Would you consider a stock Lotus Elise or Honda S2000 a "real hotrod"?

The GP or MCS JCW are not the ultimately modded or tuned MINIs possible but warranty needs to be kept in mind when upgrades are added as well as total price.

And what is the manufactorer's incentive to do this ultimate MINI? It's certainly going to be low volume, costly, possibly lead to something breaking down and needing warranty work which can be costly in the long run and you have to not compete against products in a similar price range in BMW. It's politics.

A real hotrod MINI? Hmm.
Take a stock MCS and add:
Twin charged system (turbo with SC)
Upgraded intake and larger throttle body
Tuned ECU for these mods
Ported and polished cylinder heads and race cam tuned
Larger fuel injectors
Colder spark plugs and upgraded ignition coil and wires
polished SC inlet
Dual cat back exhaust (hi flow)
Fully adjustable coilover suspension with adjustable endlinks and front and rear swaybars, tower strut bar, adjustable front camber plates and rear lower and upper adjustable control arms.
Big brake kit (wilwoods) front and back with very light 17x8" wheels
Delete rear seat kit
Lightweight race seats in the front with race harnesses
Lightened interior parts with full rollcage (optional).

OK, $45-48K! Would anyone buy that???? Maybe two to four sales in my area.

 

Still its sold at a dealer. It may not be factory its still as close as a dealer has gotten to selling a fully modded mini.

 

It's a matter of perspective.

One view is that the MCS/JCW is a hotrod. Drive a MC or a MC/CVT, then hop into a MCS/JCW. Feel the difference? I did, but I admit that I'm sensitive to adding 95 HP to a tiny car.

Another view. The MCS/JCW is a hotrod. Drive a Civic, Focus, early model Rabbit, Ford Fiesta, Ford Escort, Renault Le Car; then hop into a MCS/JCW. Feel the difference? Having driven everything on that list except for the Le Car, I can say that the MCS/JCW is far superior.

Third View... The Renault R5 Turbo 2 back in the 80's was considered to be some kind of Holy Grail of ultra performing super-exotic small car. Compare the performance specs of a street going version to the MCS/JCW. The MCS/JCW wins again. It even makes an *** of the Magnum PI Ferarri and M635CSi of the day.

Contrarian View:
The MCS/JCW is no hotrod, and neither is the JCW/GP because a Hot Rod is by definition a car modified by its owner to suit his/her needs and desires.

Is it a hot rod? I can't say for certain, but I kinda think it is. I bought one afterall, and I have long vowed to NEVER buy FWD, NEVER buy a 4 cylinder car, and NEVER buy a hatchback. It MUST have something going for it or I'd have never forked over $38K (tax and all) for one!

I think the definition of a hot rod is as elusive as the definition of a sports car. It is kinda like the definition of obscene....I know it when I see it.

Having grown up in the 80's when all cars royally sucked, I'd really really like to put MY MINI into a time machine and take it back to my high school and college days. Grand Nationals and megadollar exotics would be the only cars around that even stood a chance against it!

Rawhyde

PS Happy New Year to all!

 

I understand. So the OPs question still goes unanswered.....

Like I said, I can put my wife behind the wheel of my MR and I can spank her around the track in her XC90. It's also true that many people who buy high performance cars cannot get the most out of them due to lack of HPDE.....but what does this have to do with Mini deciding not to make the M3 equivalent of the MCS?

....and the M3 and Lotus Elise can, driver skill being equal, trounce the MCS and S2000 on many tracks that incorporate a blend of straights and twisties - in other words they are better all-around performing cars.

Which is why alot of people would like to see a factory tuned ultimate Mini that would be a better all-around performing car.

No. The Elise is a better all-around performer than the MCS and posted track time after track time supports this.

I also don't consider the RAV4 a hot rod. Just because something can beat the MCS at a certain performance facet does not make it a hot rod.

Maybe Mini should fly in the SRT skunkworks, STi, Mazdaspeed or Ralliart engineers who were able to wring excellent performance at reasonable prices. If Subaru can put out a 300 hp, technology laden, AWD athlete out for $33K, why can't Mini?

Brad, I'm not a car executive, but since many of the other car manufacturers (GM, Ford, DC, Subaru, Mitsubishi, etc) are putting out CS-Vs, Z06s, Shelbys, GTS. STis, EVOs, SRTs and yes BMW with their Ms - I would venture to say the idea isn't too far-fetched or crazy - wouldn't you agree?

..............and I do agree with the politics part of your statement. For the record, I think Mini/BMW is short-selling and underestimating their client base. I think these are enthusiasts cars - the base MCS would make a great platform for a world-beater. I think they could put a hell of a package together for under 36K and they would easily sell as many as they decided to make.

I thought the existing Mini suspension was a world beater? Pages and pages of posts regarding how nothing can beat it in the twisties - OK, I'll spot your some better shocks and thicker bars front and aft. Forget about the R53, the Tritec was admittedly harder to squeeze the HP out of than the new PSA unit should prove to be. Still, the GP was a baby step in the right direction. Slap some of the JCW euro spec brakes, JCW header and other go fast bits and get it up to 225 hp and I think some of the controversy surrounding the package would have gone away - but I digress......

If a base R56 MCS is $20K or so, a good ECU upgrade, exhaust upgrade, brakes, MBC or other turbo-upgrade plus cams and lighter wheels/performance rubber should be able to be slapped on for under 15K - right?

As I stated earlier, I think if you can put a 265 to 300 hp R56 on the streets for under $36K, you will have alot of buyers.

 

It has nothing to do other than provide a reference point and I said I would joke about it. The point I was trying to make was that if Toyota can produce that type of performance in a bulking SUV and do so for a song, why can't MINI?

I have no problem with that comment whatsoever. It just further evidence that "Thou Shall NOT mess with BMW turf" ... a corporate policy decisions which is what I believe the reason to be.

Very well said. That ties directly to my point. If the Japanese can do it so cheaply why cannot MINI? Unless BMW is holding them back. I brought up the BBK. WHY doesn't MINI sell a REAL BBK (I had the JCW brakes and they were nothing special except for more brake dust). How about wheels? Everyone KNOWS OEMs are concrete bricks ... why not sell true performance OEM wheels? Take the market AWAY from the aftermarket vendors.

Skip has hit it RIGHT on the money.

Honda, No. Elise ... EXTREMELY close. The Exige S Cup, of course, is the ultimate Loti but the Elise Comes is a track toy out the door. It DOES come with lightwheet wheels and, essentialy, track tires in those A008s (while MINI owners rush to dump their RFs). Lotus DOES sell stage 2 and stage 3 catbacks and, if I remember right, is trying to take the Lotus aftermaket busines away from aftermarket vendors (I believe I read that on Elisetalk). For $43K you do get one hell of a sportscar and, I would bet there are many, many $43K MINIs around ... Especially when you add in mods.

That brings up MIkem original point ... You want a fast car, but one to begin with. What the point of putting $43K into a MINI when you can get a factory one MUCH faster than a modded MINI OEM? Of course, Elises have other issues ... like no storage

Then how do the Japanese do it? How can Mitsu and Subi produce their street versions of world class rally cars, under warranty for mid - high 30s? Why cant MINI do it?

Its politics? YES ... as I say ... BMW will not allow it.

Lets exclude the TC and just talk reality. Money sunk into cars today ... like the $10K thread. I paid $33K excluding tax. Add the JCS brakes, suspension, Borla, and some CF bits maybe $37K. Forget the TC kit. How many people, do you think, have $37K sunk into their car? Look at the for sale ads ... ppl wanted to sell their car with huge lists of mod. I believe ... many.

If MINI can sell a GP for $31K? You dont think they can throw in more goodies and sell a much quicker car for under $40K?

If not ... why not? The Japanese can.

There is NOTHING special about the FBT MInis. Some fancy paint and standard aftermarket bolt-ons.

Sure its a matter of perspective. I test drove the MCS and then took home a JCW. I was NOT impressed with the MCS. JCW was peppier but lets face it, nothing to write home about.

Sure ... I would drive my 4 cyl RAV4 and get it the JCW and it would be night and day but ... ???

Interesting you bring that up because that argument is going on in other forums ... How about the Ferarri TestaRossa. Dream supercar of its time or the Countach? TestaRossa supercar 0-60 times was what? Can you guess? 5.2. Heck ... Skippys' Japanese runabout would dust that.

Rawhyde, I think you missed my defintion of hotrod buried in the thread. I'm talking about DIY add a bit here and there. I'm talking about just building the MINI that all the enthusiasts drool for.

Some examples, build the Exige S for the Loti crowd. Sure it costs more and few are sold but no need for aftermarket widgets ... Factory car, fully warrantied, wanna track it? It was built for that. Build the GT2, or even the GT3 for the p-crowd. Race car out the door, but warrantied and street legal.

Yes, those are more expensive so you do it in line with costs considering the market place and intended audience. I'm not talking about building a $55K MINI.

However, I still believe it all falls back to not messing with BMW turf.

 

Exactly

But one thing you wrote is now starting me to think ...

For the record, I think Mini/BMW is short-selling and underestimating their client base. I think these are enthusiasts cars - the base MCS would make a great platform for a world-beater. I think they could put a hell of a package together for under 36K and they would easily sell as many as they decided to make.

I've brought this up before but just look at MINI's history ...

Without "bashing" the marque because you DO get great value for the money on the base car. GREAT VALUE ...

Many ppl were disappointed in what MINI did with the MC40. They were expecting the full JCW treatment PLUS.

Many ppl were disappointed in what MINI did with the GP. Again, expecting much more.

But who is MINI selling to and listening too. Clearly not the enthusiasts. The buying masses could care less. I would bet more than 50% of all buyers NEVER add any aftermarket part.

But an under $40K MINI that was built with true performance bits would fly out of the showroom floors.

Yet if history serves, they will never build it.

And this goes back to my original question. Why not? I just find it sad, at the end of this calendar year, the I dont think we will ever see its true potential as an OEM car.

Many ppl refer to the MINI as an enthusiasts car but MINI sure doesn't look at it that way from what it has done.