The (our) traction control is the exact opposite of safe and effective if driving in the snow. But it IS a lovely way to get marooned in the middle of a street waiting for the power to return.

 

savage65 had it about right. Very good advice.

There are lots of differing opinions about DSC/TC and when it should be on or off. My experience has been to always leave it on while driving about. Afterall you never know when you might need it. The only times that I turn it off is while trying to assend steep snow/ice covered hills.

By turning it off will allow you to maintain a little, and I do mean just a little, wheel spin and conserve momentum. I have found that the DSC/TC would cut fuel and/or spark and reduce power to a point where momentum is lost, in an effort to prevent wheelspin.

I also found out in my '02MCS during the first snow storm of the season that the all season Dunlop RF tires are poor snow tires, even when only 2 months old. I found some 15" MC wheels with the stock Continental Contact all season tires and these were much better. When I wore the Contis out I purchased some dedicated true winter tires, the Nokian Hakka 2. What a world of difference those tires make. They have transformed my '06MCS into a little tractor. I just point it in the direction that I want to go and away I go. Very confidence inspiring.

Narrow winter tires are also much better. My recommendation to any MINI owner is to get another set of either steel or aluminum wheels in 15"x5.5". Find a 175/65-15 or 185/65-15 dedicated snow tire. If your state allows it choose a studded tire, then those little polished ice spots at intersections will be an annoyance of the past.

You did not mention whether or not you have the optional LSD. This is also a great help on snow and ice and apparently MINI modifies the DSC/TC program to allow more wheelspin without the electronic nanny interfering. edit(my bad, I now see that you have an '04 when the LSD was not offered)

Good luck. I am anxiously awaiting the first snow so that I can go out and play.

Oh yes, one other thing. Just because you know what you are doing out there, watch out for the other guy because he probably doesn't.

 

Thanks for all of the advice. I am getting used to slipping and sliding in this car. I really hope snow tires are not a waste of my money. I've lived in Colorado for 15 years and never owned snow tires before, never needed them with a FWD car. I think the issue with the Mini is the weight of the car. And the snow tires are necessary. It's a good thing this car is so cute and I love it because it is so high maintenance, now she needs "winter tires"!! So she gets her "new winter wardrobe" and her owner doesn't. It's so exciting to spend money on tires....they're almost as cute as that handbag I could have gotten!

 

I've actually been really impressed with the way the MINI handles in the snow, with just the OE Dunlop 16" RFs -- the only time I had a problem is when I hit a patch of ice and spun out into a curb, but then nothing would have helped me on ice...

 

It sounds like your trying to make your tires work in conditions they weren't really designed for which is going to cause you more problems then you want. Just get a set of snow tires for winter and ditch the no seasons. Its not the car, Mini's are simply awsome in the snow.

 

What about buying a cheap AWD Subaru for the winter? $5k and you'll have a snow beast that you don't care if people plow into you.

Otherwise get the snow tires...they make a MASSIVE difference! Basically makes a FWD car feel like AWD.

 

Having lived all my life in some part of the snow belt, I can offer this. Most answers have been correct. I can say

• Forget about DSC in snow. Just turn it off
• Snow tires will help ... in light snow. No snow tires will help on ice.
• It has nothing to do with RFs. All-seasons, RF or not, are better than performance tires below 50 degrees.
• You do want skinny tall tires in winter, not fat wides ones
• Adding weight does nothing ... not rwd.
• Some ppl think FWD will get them through anything. Totally wrong. While its easier to pull a string then push a string, its no substitute for AWD
• Be very careful of snow depth. MINIs are pretty low. 6" of fresh snow and your front end is going to be a snow plow. Get snow up into the engine bay and its going to melt and cause possible hydrolock if it melts near the intake.

For those hills, the best approach is to keep a far distance between you and the car ahead. Drive SLOWLY but steadily. Do not stop or brake for anything. SEEK OUT fresh snow. You may get better traction in the fresh snow than hardpacked ice. You can tell when cars make tire trails in the snow. The fresh snow will get you more grip than hard packed ice.

Carry some sand (heavy) or just plain fireplace ashes in a garbage bag in the boot. If stuck on the hill, you can dig a little of the snow out with a shovel, through down some ashes and get some traction even on ice. Ashes are much ligher than sand any many cities put down ash as well as salt. Salt won't help. Kitty litter is expensive. Sand is cheap but heavy. Ash is usually free if you got a fireplace

Best of luck!

 

dsc is meant for driving fast and hitting snow and steering around the morons in suv's going 20 mph.

its not meant to get you out of a ditch. my limited slip differential does that and traction control is supposed to help that but apparently it has some issues.

dsc is a single wheel braking system designed to right a car into the proper direction when you are driving fast. not 2 mph.

getting stuck in an intersection that is full of ice and snow is 98% of time due to impatient drivers who try and "make it".

 

"Having lived all my life in some part of the snow belt, I can offer this. Most answers have been correct. I can say

• Forget about DSC in snow. Just turn it off"

Thanks again for the advice. Now for a stupid question, how do I know if my Mini has DSC and if so, how do I turn it off? What will turning it off do? I guess this is one thing my Mini dealer didn't review with me when I bought the car. It was snowing again today and I did fine on the roads but it's a different story in my condo complex where the snow removal (what snow removal???) is bad. I was slipping and sliding like crazy but made it up the hill in my parking lot and didn't hit anything!

 

Why do people give this advice? It just seems like really horrible advice to me. DSC is great in the snow and ice. Please, please, please do not turn it off in the snow.

For a very few people, their driving ability may be high enough that they would be better off with the DSC off. But that's very few people in my opinion, and they'll know that they'd be better off with the DSC off without someone telling them that.

For the average driver (no disrespect meant), they'll be much safer with the DSC on.

I've had a little high performance driving instruction, and I drive with the DSC on in the snow (and the dry). If I take my MINI out ice racing (basically an autocross on a frozen lake), I'll turn the DSC off an play. On the road, it stays on.

So... just why do people insist on giving the advice to turn the DSC off in the snow? What's even worse is when people mis-quote the owner's manual and make it sound like it (the manual) recommends turning the DSC off in the snow - which is certainly doesn't.

 

On the bank of switches there will be a DSC switch. Just flick the switch up and a little light will go on ... If there is no switch, there is no DSC. But, you wrote: The tire light started flashing (due to the spinning wheels). That tire light was most likely the DSC switch so you probably got it and you got it right. You were going nowhere because the DSC was shutting the car down.

As to what is does ... see below. YMMV ... its just advice, if your not comfortable with DSC off, then leave it on ... its your choice.

Fair question.

About the first thing my MA said when going over the car was to just leave the DSC on all the time unless it was snowy, icy outside, then turn it off. Otherwise, you probably weren't going anyway because tire slippage would shut down the car.

I'm going to quote Bilbo above

"The only times that I turn it off is while trying to assend steep snow/ice covered hills.

By turning it off will allow you to maintain a little, and I do mean just a little, wheel spin and conserve momentum. I have found that the DSC/TC would cut fuel and/or spark and reduce power to a point where momentum is lost, in an effort to prevent wheelspin."

The OP wrote:

I made a right turn and started up the snowpacked and icy incline, I got part of the way up and then the wheels started spinning and I was going nowhere. The tire light started flashing (due to the spinning wheels).

The OP was going up a hill. When the DSC finds the tires slipping, its going to shut the car down. That is exactly what Bilbo was talking about and exactly what the OP described.

I wrote:

For those hills, the best approach is to keep a far distance between you and the car ahead. Drive SLOWLY but steadily. Do not stop or brake for anything.

I guess I should have added its all about momentum. That is what I meant about "Do not stop or brake for anything". The DSC kicks in and stops the car. Now your done. Once the momentum is lost, your not going up a slippery hill.

Now in "general" terms, having DSC on with just fresh snow ... dunno if it helps or not ... All I know is that if you go into a skid with a FWD car with an OEM MINI your going to find out what understeer mean real quick. In a corner, your going to plow straight ahead. If the DSC senses the skid its going to shut down the car ... not, IMO, a good idea. The ONLY thing that is going to pull you out of the skid in a FWD car is those front tires driving OUT of the skid (not into the skid as in a RWD). You shut the car down ... the tires can't turn and pull you out.

Now if that has got to do with driver skill, then that might be true. Whenever I bought a new car, I sought out empty parking lots and went skidding around, JUST to see how the car skidded. FWD is so much different than RWD and FWD used to be "new". I suppose no one does that these days so many experience levels differ. In this part of the country where I live now, people panic in the snow and though I was nuts going "out" in the snow to find a parking lot! However, physics are physics and in a FWD you got to steer out of the skid, have those front tires pull you through the corner and you can't do that if the car is fighting with you to shut it down.

I think that is the reason why people give the advice to shut down DSC in the snow/ice.

 

I'll agree with you on the "getting started" side of the issue. And, to nit-pick, the problem there is the traction control, not the DSC. But, as people have often mentioned, the systems are tied together and you cannot turn only one of them off.

But, once you are moving, DSC is great.

Did you really go into a parking lot and get into an understeer condition with the DSC on? There's another way to get out of understeer besides using the front wheels to drive out of the skid. That other way would be to selectively apply the brakes to individual wheels of the car. Yep, a person cannot do that with the brake pedal. But, that's exactly what the DSC does, and it does it very well. DSC will also help should you manage to get into an oversteer condition. You're statement saying that all the DSC can do is "shut the car down" is wrong.

Yes, nothing can help a person who does a really bone-headed move while driving. But, the DSC can help when you get things a little wrong.

 

No, I did not in the MINI for two reasons.

First, I know how to drive a FWD, I was talking 15 years ago when FWD was still relatively new and most cars RWD.

Second, I've experience understeer in dry ... you know when the car is plowing and immediately added the H-comp 25.5mm rear sway to get the car more neutral.

The mechanical guardians on new cars are amazing. yeah, your probably right the DSC can apply braking distributed at will, I can believe that but I still say its all about momentum ... you go up that hill and the car stops, and your dead in the water (or ice). The car is not going anywhere and I do not want a mechanical guardian braking the car for me just because the tires are slipping in some snow. Without question, the DSC goes off on hills.

As to regular driving in the snow ... maybe your right but I guess I'm old fashioned in the regard that after been enuff snow storms in my life, I like driving in the snow and just dont want some mechanical guardian telling me when to brake when I dont want to brake.

If your comfortable with it on ... then by all means turn it on.

 

Check this out for keeping DSC off. http://www.gbmini.net/MINIcircuit/index.shtml

It sounds like you can keep disable it with the circuit. I'm sure people on here have the circuit, so they can probably confirm.

 

hmm, lets see advice...dont go fast on off ramps in snow/ice. last time it snowed here in maryland, i took a ramp waay to fast slide, and messed up my entire front end (in my old Jetta :-P)

 

chows4us writes: Now in "general" terms, having DSC on with just fresh snow ... dunno if it helps or not ... All I know is that if you go into a skid with a FWD car with an OEM MINI your going to find out what understeer mean real quick. In a corner, your going to plow straight ahead. If the DSC senses the skid its going to shut down the car ... not, IMO, a good idea. The ONLY thing that is going to pull you out of the skid in a FWD car is those front tires driving OUT of the skid (not into the skid as in a RWD). You shut the car down ... the tires can't turn and pull you out.


please describe an examlpe of driving 'out' of a skid for me....as well as steering 'in' to a skid

also, I was just searching for articles on under and oversteer and came across this list of funny descriptions on accident insurance claims:

www.businessballs.com/insuranceclaims.htm

 

I've thought this over and still think it doesn't matter in a skid. If brake pressure is going to only one wheel and your sliding, it dont matter, your still sliding. The wheel has to turn to pull you out of the skid. Any kind of braking is just going to stop the car and then you have had it.

Sure ... Think of a RWD car as pushing a string (when on snow/ice) while in a FWD car your pulling a string. Much easier to pull a string. That analogy is why FWD was such a major improvement for inclement weather besides the fact most of the weight of "most" cars is over the front wheels (of course unless you got a 50/50 weight balance in a sports car).

I'm sure if you google this you will find this because its the way about anyone learned to drive a car learned with RWD. In RWD, you got to do the complete opposite of what your mind tells you to do ... that is, turn INTO the direction of the skid. Your mind says , thats going to make it worse but in fact, it doesn't. You might spin a 180 but you will eventually have the rear wheels get traction. If you turned away from the skid, it only makes it worse. So if your skidding to the right, you turn to the right.

Then came FWD. Anyone who learned to drive in the snow on a RWD had to forget everything they learned over the years. In FWD those front tires are the ONLY thing that are going to let you recover. If you turned into the skid, that is, turn the wheel in the direction of the skid, AND they gained traction, then your just going to make the skid worse.

The only way to recover from a FWD skid is to turn AWAY from the skid, just like you mind thinks it should. The front tires get traction and you recover.

So steering into a skid is turn in the direction of the skid for RWD. Steering out of a skid is turning in the direction away from the skid for a FWD. Does that make sense?

I can relate to you one experience that scared the hell out of me because I was sure we were going to die. In the early 1990s we had a MR2 Turbo, mid-engined, RWD. We were on a two lane in northwest CO highway ... alone of the road.

To the right was a gravel breakdown strip and then a large granite wall of a mountain. On the left was a gravel strip and 3000' drop-off, no guardrails. There were signs saying "Beware of falling Rocks". We were on vacation driving around the country. The speed limit about 50 but I was only doing about 40 - 45 because I didn't like the dropoff to the left.

For no reason I could imagine the tail end of the car pulled to the left, no traction to the rear wheels, heading into the granite wall ... and my wife was "taping" the whole thing. Now this was just after FWD came out and we had owned some FWD where I had to unlearn what I learned as a kid but I was back in a RWD.

It was just like in the movies ... everything went in slow motion, no time to think, I turned into the mountain At that point I though well we aren't going fast enough to die here but the car is going to be totaled. We hit the gravel strip, gain some traction pulled a 180 at speed and were now going backwards pulling across the lanes (thankfully no traffic). Now back on the road ... no traction

I pulled the wheel into the skid which meant pointing to the dropoff, scared as hell, rear tires caught on the gravel, pulled another 180 and the car stopped pointing forward ... 2' from the edge. I got out of the car ... walked around it ... no damage anywhere ... looked down and thankful we were alive. Drove away in silence for 50 miles

Turns out there was fine gravel all over the road you couldn't see ... it was like driving on tiny ***** ... but hit the gravel/dirt on the sides and the tires got traction.

If I had turned away from the skid, we would have smacked the granite wall. That day, about 17 years ago, was when I knew I had actually learned from driving in parking lots in the snow to practice. In order to live, I had to do what is instinctivily the wrong thing to do, turn into the skid. That's also why I dont want to mechanical widget trying to help me out in the snow/ice/slippery because I have no idea what IT wants to do vice what I want it to do.

Never want to go through that again.

Last ... about understeer and oversteer.

Famous saying by some race driver, I think a NASCAR guy.

"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car.
Oversteer is when you hit the wall with the trunk of the car"

 

Since you sold your MINI, I guess you're gonna have to find someone with one to let you test this out for real. Trust me, the DSC does work. Braking individual wheels can save some understeer / oversteer conditions. Being able to understand it or not does not effect if it works or not.

I'm sure some google work could find many reputable sources to explain it. but nothing works as well as a first hand demonstration.

Again... please leave the DSC on once you are moving in the snow. Read your owner's manual, it will tell you almost exactly that. It actually says something to the effect of "always leave it on, unless you cannot get moving. Then, turn it off to get moving and immediately turn it back on once you are moving".

 

Well ... hmm. I did google it.

Although I have no MINI to try it out, its not like DSC is unique in that its just their name for the generic ESC used commonly on most all SUVs these days. However, I did some reading on PSM which is just Porsches name for the same thing and ... here's a surprise ... I think you might be right

OK, I can admit when I'm wrong. After reading the technical description of PSM I guess the computers can react faster than me. But what sold me was that Walter Roehl says he can only go one second faster around the ring with PSM off so its not worth it to turn it off.

OK, for regular driving on snow, I agree. But to get up that icy hill, I would still turn it off.

Wow ... hmm.

 

OK, so lets say you are going down the road at 50 mph and the road now curves to the right.....

a) Now, the car is starting to skid in an understeer fashion so that the car is not going to make the curve as the car is heading more straight ahead. I know you would let off the gas so more weight gets distributed more over the front wheels to help gain traction, but I would think you would steer to the right to get back into the line of the curve, right?

b) now the car is starting to skid in an oversteer fashion so that the car is now turning in tighter than the curve as the rear is swinging out. I know in this case you would want to give gentle acceleration to shift weight to the rear, but I would think you would steer the wheels more to the left to get back on to the line of the curve...right?

 

I'm not real sure why people use such complicated descriptions either, when it all boils down to: keep the front wheels pointed in the direction you want to go.

If there is oversteer then turning less (even if that requires opposite lock) will naturally point you down the road toward where you want to be.

If there is understeer then turning more will at least send you in the right direction when the front tires suddenly regain traction, and reducing throttle will help to regain that traction.

Assuming FWD always skids by understeering and RWD always skids by oversteering is just plain wrong. FWD does allow the option of dissolving oversteer into understeer by tromping on the gas if needed, where the same move may do exactly the opposite with RWD. And big anti-roll bars do absolutely nothing on ice because not enough body roll can be generated to allow them to work.

As for how braking one wheel or side of the car can help to turn the car, just think of a tank in the old "Battlezone" video game, with the two control sticks. Moving one forward and one back (reverse) will even spin you in place If the DSC computer decides you aren't turning as sharply as your wheels are pointed, it simply brakes the inside wheels to help things along. If the car is yawing too far it brakes the outside front wheel to stop that and bring things back in line.

Note that the only way the computer can know your intentions is by which way the wheels are aimed, so keep 'em pointed toward where you want to be (no more and no less, as overcorrecting can lead to a series of ever-increasing swings).

 

a. Correct
b. Correct

In a FWD, turn the wheel in the direction you want to go.

In FWD, correct ... the front wheel has to pull you out.

 

I'm to lazy to read this whole thread, so if this has come up before, sorry.

The best help I can offer, SLOW DOWN, KEEP BOTH HANDS ON THE WHEEL, PAY ATTENTION

Mark

 

First he leaves home, gets involved with someone down south, packs it up and moves, lives happily ever after in a snowy St Louis ... but become to lazy to read about SNOW

 

Can you think of a situation where that is not also true for RWD? (except when it's truly hopeless and you have to turn into the curb at the last moment to avoid flipping the car) You're taught to always look in the direction you want to go because your hands will tend to automatically follow...