leaving work due to the sickness of others doesn't count for sick time, doesn't matter if they are a dependant or not. That's an unexcused absence..... Only time when you can leave work due to the hardship of others is berevement, I think....

Matt

 

But every company presumably has their own employement contract with their own employees, right? Plenty of organizations allow you to use your sick -time for taking care of family members. none do for dogs and cats, although if anyone will be FIRST on that forefront it sure will be Calif.

Our legislature was stupid enough to force me to dine with them in our restaurants recently. Nothing more appetizing than eating while the guy or gal next to you has his furr-ball licking and scratching theirselve's all over,

HMMM, HMMM GOOD...

"Topics, we don't need no stinkin topics", it's internet improv...FUN Stuff actually.

 

And how often does the rest of the world have to dine/watch a movie or shop whilst listening to someone's spawn shriek and cry because the parents refuse to remove said annoyance from the restaurant/theater/store?

Oh wait, the parents are "entitled" to get out too! Yes, and there is also such thing as a baby sitter.

At least the pets are well-behaved.

Ever been on a plane flight when someone's kid kicked the back of your seat the entire flight? Even after you've asked them to stop? Don't know too many pets who do that.

And my pets are just as important a member of my family as your spawn.

 

And the bereavement allowance is only for immediate family (as in mother, father, or siblings). Aunts, uncles, and the rest get treated as vacation time (if you are lucky; if not, it is unexcused absence).

 

Amen to that. I'll take furball grooming his/her nether regions (while sitting on my lap, no less) over the shreiking any day of the week.

[This thread is entertaining me. ]

 

"And my pets are just as important a member of my family as your spawn." "Ever been on a plane flight when someone's kid kicked the back of your seat the entire flight?"creseida.

Any family resemblance? As Per airline flights, that's almost but not quite as bad as being trapped in a seat next to the "wide-bodied" one , that wouldn't be anyone here would it?

I think I see clearly why some folks don't have children. Thank goodness for small favors.

SEE, OmToast and I agree on multilple issues. Can't you feel the "warmth"?

 

There is even a tv ad out about this (I think it is Capital One) - the setting is a shop where the kid of a shopper is playing a lamea** tune with the visitor announcement device.... The only reason the owners of the shop don't throw the kid out is because his parent might buy something....

I think you meant to add (but neglected to): are to you. Unless you plan on adopting CDMINI's kid(s)....

 

used to be a time when societies got together, tolerated the consiquences of closeness and overlap, and cooperatively enjoyed the benefits of group efforts. Now it seems like we all want our perfect experience, unperterbed by upsets from the vary societal constructs that created the benefits in the first place.... Everyone should just take a pill and chill.

Have I pissed people off with Alison out in public? Yep, she's less than two, and doesn't know any better. But it is her world too. Have I also spent dinnertime in the parking lot doing tag team eating so her behaviour isn't a downer for others? Sure have.

While I understand a lot of the points in this thread, the tone has me really baffled... Prozac all around!

Matt

 

That is an example of polite, considerate behavior. An example of obnoxious behavior is for the parents to impose a screaming kid on the rest of the patrons. There is an element that would rather be obnoxious than polite.

 

What Camini said...

I was a really well-behaved kid. I didn't shreik and throw tantrums. My cousin was a very well-behaved kid. He didn't shreik and throw tantrums. My mother and aunt were the same. So, I kind of feel like, if all our parents could maintain a peaceful situation with us in public... why can't others?

The one (one. solo. only) time I dared to have a fit in public I was removed from the public so quickly that I probably didn't realize we were no longer in the shoe store until the car was 1/2 way home.

If a kid if giggling loudly (in a giggle-appropriate place), or generally behaving in a kidlike fashion, operating happily albeit above polite noise levels, I don't care. Where I get nudgey is when I'm seated at a restaurant with a kid in full-on tantrum mode and the parents just sit there trying to pretend it isn't happening.

I have no issues with having to share the world, but just as I wouldn't keep my dog in, say, a dog-friendly cafe whilst he barked his bloomin' head off, I just expect people to either raise their kids to behave well or remove them on the occasions that such rearing fails.

 

I've been guilty of both. The comments were to point out a couple of things...
1) There are two sides to every story. (Even when I've eaten outside, the escallation to that point isn't easy on restaurant patrons).
2) More importantly, I'm just sick of the "entitlement attitude" that is prevelent in society. To take the airplane example. A certain non-trivial percentage of the population is under three. It SHOULD be expected that there will be small kids on airplanes. Instead of being pissed this happens, maybe expect it and be happy when it doesn't. Look at it another way, in every group of 100 people, there are sure to be some jerks. Maybe a kid that can't keep still, or some passenger that has too many cocktails, or coughs without regard to who they spray or whatever. I used to travel a lot. It was rare to get a full plane with no problems.

But for those that are real intolerant of childrens behaviour. Just be happy that someone chose to take the time to try to deal with your behaviour as a child, when you were learning what was proper and what was not, and not always doing it right.

Matt

 

"I was a really well-behaved kid. I didn't shreik and throw tantrums. My cousin was a very well-behaved kid. He didn't shreik and throw tantrums. My mother and aunt were the same. So, I kind of feel like, if all our parents could maintain a peaceful situation with us in public... why can't others?"

And you know this because someone told you this or are you claiming you have a memory of how you were at 6mo, 1 year or 2 years old? That's a pretty far stretch of the imagination.

 

I added the bold. This rewards the negative behaviour, granting more power to the child. Then every time they don't like their surroundings, they just go batty. You end up with a worse problem over time, giving people who don't want to be around rowdy kids even more ammunition. Parents have a tough time, but none of the solutions to immature behaviour are fast. Surely not fast enough to be complete over the time of a meal.

That's why I stress tolerance. Any restaurant that will seat children, well, they seat children. There's a chance that it will happen, and you know that full well when you go out. This bumps into the sacrafice to form a society idea again. We don't always get our perfect world. I've found my life to be happier and more satisfying by appriecieating the good in it, instead of dwelling on the facets that are less than ideal.

And really, there is a lot to nature over nuture. My sister sounds a lot like you were. Very well behaved at all times. For me, as long as I can remember, I always did a mental calculation of what the punishment enough of a deterence to the fun or indulgance I wanted to have. Exact same parents, same parenting tendancies, same environment whatever. My daugther Alison is the same as me. Most times, just saying no, or stop doesn't do it. It's

Alison....

ALISON....

ALISON!!!!

Alison, listen to your father.

Honey, did you hear me?

Don't be a bad girl... (this one usually works, she does like to please, but not always).

Alison, don't make me come over there and get you....

Alison, do you want a time out in your crib? (She knows what that is and hates it, but still,, the threat of this isn't enough)

you get the idea. We don't spank, but my dad did. Wasn't a deterance if I wanted to do something.... Just like me telling Alison "no" isn't if she's focused.

Point of all this is that while you came from a well natured family (lucky for all the parents in the line!), not all people have the same behavioural genes (if there is such a thing) or nature as you did, no matter what goes into the nurture.....

Matt

 

Well, yes, but I GUARANTEE you the patrons are happy you relieved them of the disruption.

I think my objection is to the sense of entitlement to conduct oneself with an absence of respect for the dignity and peace of others around you. When you go out in public, there is some expectation that everyone will behave to a certain level. The parents' responsibility is to set a certain level of expectation of a child's behavior. Some accept the responsibility; others don't.

 

Just like you would guage the likelihood of a punishment you didn't want to experience against the fun of cutting up, so is Alison. If she consistently gets a time-out in her crib, she WILL make the connection between the two. The key is consistency in application of corrective measures.

 

you also have to realize that well intentioned, considerate parents with children will disrupt the surroundings every now and then. While I'm the first to admit there are inconsiderate parents, I also relaize there are intolerant people to.

Aiming this intolerance in the direction of children (via a surrogate of the parents) to me seems somewhat unrealistic. The are children. The don't know better, and are climbing a very complex learning curve, dealing with things that they don't understand and surely aren't consitant. Even though my little Alison is pretty well behaved, there are times when she will sneeze without covering her mouth, thow the bread-crust when she sees chocolate, run in front of or into others when she sees a dog, and on and on and on. One should hold this level of intolerance to those that are mature enough to know better....

And while there are parents that do seem inconsiderate, I see many times where others have unrealistic expectations of parental behavior or control (like rewarding bad behaviour just to make it easier on others) to assumptions about human nature (like why can't all children behave like I've been told I did?). These positions aren't realistic, nor well thought out.

Matt

 

My impression is that kids aren't 100% of the time reacting to a surrounding they don't like (i.e. "I hate this stupid restaurant, so I will scream until my parents do something about it.") but rather they are reacting to some specific issue: I want to eat/don't want to eat/don't want to eat what I have/I'm tired/I'm thirsty/you wouldn't get me a grape soda... etc. If a kid IS having a fit because he/she doesn't like the surrounding, why can the parents not remove the child to a surrounding or situation they like even less? I'm not advocating taking a screaming kid out for ice cream; I'm all for making their life even more unpleasant than they deemed it at the point they had the tantrum. Figuring out what will do that is the job of the parent.

CD -- you can't spend more than 10 minutes with my family and not know the intricate bhavioural details of all the grandkids. I'd say my memory reliably stretches (in that I have advanced, specific recall) to about age 5 and remember very clearly how I behaved in public from that point on.

I see your point, Dr, and agree that much of it is dependant upon nature, but I also think that nurture is dependant on nature. My parents were extreme softies by the standards of some (I recently mentioned in another thread that the only time I was ever punished was the shoe store tantrum incident), but they actually had a really good understanding of how to deal with me, as I was. They figured out what worked and used it.

 

Oh, I miss the days when a child could be spanked for misbehaving and not have CPS called...

There is tolerating children for being children. 99% of people don't have a problem with that.

BUT If a child is misbehaving, they need to be corrected, not ignored for 30 minutes in the hope they will shut up. That is fine in the privacy of your own home, but not when you are inflicting your spawn on the rest of us trying to enjoy ourselves. If a child is having a temper tantrum in public, there is NOTHING wrong with removing them to another area to deal with them. You aren't rewarding them by doing this or giving them their way. I guarantee you making them stand in the corner in the bathroom is far less pleasant than allowing them to roll on the floor in the middle of a restaurant screaming their head off. A spanking is even less pleasant, and gets the point across nicely, but we can't do that now, can we?

The rest of us should not have to put up with a shrieking child for 30 minutes because Mom thinks by ignoring the creature she is making a point. She's not. Well, she is...she's letting the rest of us know she's inconsiderate of others.

 

" When you go out in public, there is some expectation that everyone will behave to a certain level. The parents' responsibility is to set a certain level of expectation of a child's behavior."

Straight from Dog Obediance School, shall we use the "choke collars" and "caged pens" on them as well? That is the basis of almost all dog training schools of thought. For such an intolerance of others, maybe "mummy and daddy" used the paddle a few too many times here, not too few!

cameida, "creature", "spawn" and other choice terms, are you sure you aren't holding back any true feelings about children? Stick with your four legged "off-spring.", they can't argue back, now can they? Pretty safe bet for some.

 

What's funny to me is that you don't even know what I was referring to. You just assumed my "south" comment was about you and now want to pull me into your drama. Sorry but I'm not interested. Oh but I'd say THAT would definitely be misdirection at it's finest!

Now where is that kitchen sink?!?

 

I just have to say how much a I agree with OmToast & creseida. It's just so sad to see that in the last few years it's more common to see misbehaving children than behaving children. What the heck is going on?

 

Oh yes, it was so much better in the 50's, 60's and 70's, everyone was just so much nicer and no one was ever as uppity as they are now. A regular paradise compared to the present times...

...unless maybe you were black and living, well, just about anywhere, or a woman or child being beaten every day of their lives by a parent, teacher or just about anyone with license to do so, or a homosexual hiding in the closet, or mentally ill and tied down in bed in your own excrement, or given forced lobotomies (sic) or just about anyone who was the slightest bit odd,

oh yes it was soooo much better in the good old days.

 

Anything, but answering the question. No drama, just perusing the talk of the internet. You can't or won't tell us what the "south" comment meant? What's so dramatic about that?

 

Oh man...

You've got your panties all in a twist over not knowing what I meant. That's pretty damn funny!

 

Naw, this is what I do for fun, it's second nature for me to confront those who can't give straight answers to direct questions...don't fool yourself and everyone here, I've ALWAYS known what you meant!