The 58th is somewhere between the docks of Charleston and Roadshow Mini!! MCS JCW PS/B B/Bonnet 4 Packages, armrest, PDC, fog light, Chrome, Seven, English Panther Leather, Chrono, HK, Anthracite, security, aux., JCW CF items, Aero on order.

 

Just wanted to say thanks for everyone who responded so far! Great advise.

 

I also thought briefly about the GTI... especially after I saw the Road and Track comparo with the JCW. The GTI was cheaper, and out-performed the MINI... and I personally think the styling looks pretty decent in the Mk5. However, the MINI is unique, and I like the idea of driving a real small car (nice for parking in L.A.). I'm very happy with my MCS JCW -- I got the black 18" JCW wheels, and I think it looks great. It feels great to drive, and I really wanted a manual anyway (so I wouldn't have ordered the DSG w/ a GTI). So, no regrets... the GTI looks nice, iis probably cheaper and maybe faster than my JCW, but seems just a little too "normal" for me...

 

Also, I think the MINI may hold its looks a little longer -- it's pretty reto already, and the pics so far of the 07 make it pretty tough for a non-MINI fan to tell the difference (whereas the Mk4 vs. Mk5 GTI's look very different). As I don't plan to see the MINI for a loooong time, getting something that would still look "in-style" >5 years from now was also important to me.

 

That's a good way to put it...one of the main attractions of the MINI is it's looks, and, even though they've sold a bunch of them, it' still doesn't look, "normal".

 

Might want to take a look at this. This is the SCCA Solo 2 classification for B Stock. Look what the Mini JCW runs against. You'll notice the GTI isn't rated as high. In fact, the first mention of GTI is all the way down in G Stock.

B Stock (BS)
BMW
M Coupe & Roadster (‘96-’00)
M3 (E30)
M3 (E36)
Z3 6cyl NOC
Chevrolet
Corvette (‘63-’82)
Chrysler
Prowler
Ferrari
308, 328
Honda
S2000
Jaguar
XKE (6- and 12-cyl)
Lotus
Elan RWD
Esprit
Europa Twin Cam
Europa, Renault engine
Maserati
Biturbo
Mazda
RX-7 Turbo (’87-’91)
RX-8
Mercedes
SLK
Morgan
Plus 8
Mini
Cooper S (John Cooper
“Works” package) (‘06+)
Nissan
300ZX Turbo (‘90+)
350Z
Plymouth
Prowler
Porsche
911, non-turbo, NOC
911 Club Sport
914/6
928 (all)
944 (16V)
944 Turbo (all)
968
Carrera 2, Carrera 4 (964
chassis)
356 Carrera 4-cam
Toyota
MR2 Turbo
TVR
8-cyl and V6

 

disgruntled buyers are one thing - but study after study puts the MC/MCS at outstanding resale, the latest being forbes magazine.

if its all about speed, then get an evo/sti/wrx.

 

Get the car you really want - your decision. As for me, I think the new GTI is fugly. To my eye, it looks very unbalanced like someone sawed off 1/3 of the car. I think the Jetta looks much better. I loved the interior and handling of my 2002 Passat but wasn't impressed with the reliability.

 

I stepped out of a 1990 VW Corrado G60 (second owner for 8 years) before purchasing my 2003 MCS. They both had/have their quirks, and each brought/brings me a ton of joy, along with the occasional pain and agony. I'm glad to see VW bring back the Rabbit nomenclature, and as long as you love your ride, follow your instincts and be prepared to smile or cry at various stages of ownership!

 

Get both. Simply leave the keys in/torch the one you like less.

Seriously, this is the last year you can get an unmolested version of Frank Stephenson's design. Lease it for two years and decide if you want to keep it. The GTI (and a new MCS) will be waiting for you in 24 months.

That's what I did, BTW.

 

Go around all day imagining yourself in one car. Spend the next day imagining yourself in the other car. Which were you happier with? I think it really comes down to which makes you happier to drive and own?

I've had a VW, Fords, Toyotas, Subaru, and now a MINI. There are ups and downs that I've experienced with all of them... you're obviously shopping in the performance hatchback aisle -- so I think the right decision at this point is what makes you happier. If you were waffling between a Toyota Camry and a MINI I'd ask you different questions and offer different advice... but here its different... follow your heart.

 

if it's all about the speed.. seriously, stay away from the FWD... let's not start with a platform that isn't made for 'speed'.

oh and i ain't up for magazine specs. nope. not at all...

 

It is all about preference . . . I'd go with feelings for a car because I like cars. I don't go with feelings, say, with an electric saw . . . because that's about breaking wood not my heart. That said, I've had countless VWs and loved them all. The most recent, a 99 Jetta, had serious quality problems and a warrenty with an uncanny ability to exclude the parts which broke and include the parts with didn't (for example the front power windows were covered but the rear weren't . . . which one do you think broke?). The MINIs problems have been minimal and the dealer's attempt to solve them thorough.

I never got the joy from any of my VWs, although I had a pretty fun Sirocco, that the MINI gives me every time I drive it.

By the way, I could have bought a faster and more powerful car (in fact I have a faster and more powerful car) but you can't use too fast and too powerful, safely, on the street. You can have it and goose it but you can't keep your license long if you really use it (ask any vette owner). I enjoy the MINI every time I take a turn down a city block in without bothering to slow down or lift my foot from the accelerator, yet alone brake.

 

I have driven both cars and a cooper S handles better than the GTI by a small margin, the GTI is much faster. From what I have read, the JCW cooper pretty much equals the dub in acceleration though adds a significant amount to the vehicle cost. Both cars are a blast to drive.

Subjectively, I think the Cooper S looks better, but the GTI has a much more pleasing interior. The stereo in the GTI is no match for the Harmon kardon in the Cooper.

As far as interior space usage is concerned, I am 6'3" and can sit in the back seat of the GTI with decemt head and leg room with a reasonably tall person in front of me. I can barely fit in the back of a mini.

I too am struggling with the same decision between the two cars. I really enjoy both of them and they do a great job of balancing function, performance and economy. My wife wants me to get the mini because of the silly mod boy racer factor in the MKV community. I am leaning towards the 5 door GTI for versatility.

As far as VW dealers are concerned, I have had good and bad experiences with them over the two MarkIV dubs I have owned.

BTW, my two MarkIV's have been very reliable.

The longer I have to wait for the MKV 5 door, the closer we get to the release of the direct injected turbo mini, which might cause me to wait a little longer so I can compare the two.

I am sure this does not help but to add to the confusion.

 

VW buyers should wait for the upcoming MKVI Golf/Jetta platform due out in 2008/2009.

The current MKV platform is simply not up to snuff. It is a better chassis than the outgoing MKIV but reportedly VW isn't happy with the high manufacturing costs of the current car and the fact that the 5th gen Golf/Jetta have not sold well in Europe (Since debut in 2003) and here in northamerica.

VW has gone back to the drawing board to improve on the current MKV GTI and release a car that looks better, handles better, its better built, cheaper to manufacture and will have a rear multilink suspension a la MINI.

The MKV will be the shortest lived generation in the Golf/Rabbit/GTI/jetta/Bora line up.

Till' then, you'll be much better off with the MINI.

 

The turbo vs the SC should not be on the list... IMHO... The SC is way better for useable linear torque. Makes the mini more predictable when you need the power... The turbo is capable of more power... but the SC beats it hands down on driveability...

 

If i were to chose between base models, i'd get the MCS.

with options, i'd go with the GTI. But i'd wait for the 4 door to come to the states. I am not a real fan of the 2 door gti. Neither are great cars.

 

Looks like VW owners b!tch and whine too...
http://www.myvwlemon.com/

I like VW's, I almost bought a beetle turbo s in 2002, but the reliability and dealer horror stories scared me away...I hope they get their act together, they really do make very nice looking vehicles..

 

You are right about the manufacturing costs, but the rest not so much. VW USA's sales figures are up this year from last: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...03/013544.html
VW also has increased sales in Europe:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...16/000767.html
The Golf is currently the single most sold car in Europe:
http://www.gmeurope.com/download/Fac...March_2006.pdf

The next generation Golf/Rabbit/GTI is going to be on the same Chassis as the current lineup with some minor changes to the front end to allow a 3.6 engine and accompanying transmission. The GTI's motor will be unchanged and the 2.0 will continue with the six speed or DSG. The GTI MKV already has a multi link rear suspension (four link vs the minis five link) and will continue to do so in the MKVI. As far as appearance is concerned, that is subjective. From everything I have read, all design changes for the MKVI serve the sole purpose of reducing manufacturing costs.

 

Mk V (2003-present)

The fifth generation Golf was unveiled at the Frankfurt Motor Show in October of 2003 and went on sale in Europe one month later. It was not released in the United States until January of 2006, however, and then only in GTI form through the spring of 2006. For the presentation of the new Golf, Wolfsburg was renamed to Golfsburg for a week. Before the North American launch of the Golf (early summer of 2006), Volkswagen of America announced on April 12, 2006, that they have decided to change the name of the Golf and return the Rabbit nameplate to the lineup for the US and Canadian markets. It continues to be the Golf in the rest of the world. (Speculation is that Volkswagen of America returned to the Rabbit name to attract attention from automotive writers who otherwise would not have bothered with a base VW model already available in Europe for 32 months, while other observers have suggested the move is an admission of what marketers realized in 1975 - that the Golf name was too esoteric for North American customers.) Volkswagen of America is promoting the new Rabbit's low price and the fact that it is built in Wolfsburg rather than in Latin American VW plants.
[edit]

Design and engineering

While the interior quality of the previous model startled rivals and led most of them to up their game in revised/replacement models, the astonishing chassis and all round ability of the Mk I Ford Focus startled Volkswagen (and indeed other rivals). In order to counter criticisms of the average dynamics of the previous model, it is widely reputed that Volkswagen poached from Ford the engineering team who designed the multi-link 'control blade' rear suspension system of the Ford Focus, widely regarded as the class benchmark for ride and handling. Indeed, the rear suspension of Golf V (a modified wishbone arrangement) bears an uncanny resemblance to that of the Focus.
The suspension changes, along with careful tuning of the chassis, led to the Mk V Golf delivering road manners which challenged the Ford Focus, and although the chassis ability was only just short of the Focus', the overall ability of the rest of the car led to the Mk V Golf being the best car in its class until the Mk 2 Ford Focus arrived in 2004.
The bulletproof interior quality of the previous generation appears to have been lost, and although still of a very high standard and ahead of other rivals the Golf no longer matches its in-house rival, the Audi A3. Many believe the reason for this step back in quality, also seen in the Mk V Passat of 2005, is to allow daylight between the marketing and price positioning of Audi and Volkswagen products. The previous generation Volkswagens were on a par with their Audi cousins.
Awards
2005 Auto Express - Best Hot Hatch (Golf GTI)
2005 Auto Express - Best Sporting Car (Golf GTI)
2004 WhatCar? Car of the Year
2004 WhatCar? Best Small Family Car
2004 Winner - AutoExpress New Car Honours
2004 Best Hatch ? BBC Top Gear Magazine Awards
[edit]

Engines

Options for engines and transmissions vary from country to country, but the Golf is available in petrol 4-cylinder and a new PD diesel unit-injector turbo direct injection engine. Transmission options include manual, automatic, Tiptronic, and direct shift gearbox (DSG). US and Canadian-spec Rabbits will use the same 150 hp five-cylinder gasoline engine that powers the Jetta and New Beetle in these markets. North American transmission choices will include a 5-speed manual or 6-speed automatic with Tiptronic. All of the Golf's engines, including the VR6, have the engine mounting points in the same place, making it possible to remove one engine and replace it with another while making few other modifications to the car.
[edit]

Mk V Jetta

A saloon version of the Mk V Golf was spawned in 2004 and, as with previous incarnations of the Golf, it maintained its own identity, a practice long abandoned by most rivals. While the Jetta name has always remained in North America the name made a welcome return to Europe, Volkswagen choosing to abandon the Bora handle of the previous Golf saloon.
As with its predecessor the Jetta featured unique front wings and rear doors, but the front doors were also unique so the only external panel shared with the Golf was the bonnet. As with all Golf saloons, the Jetta featured a unique grille which is only shared with the contenporary Golf R32 (although the GLi variant has the Golf GTi's front end). Unlike all previous saloon variants however, the front lights were now shared with the Golf.
As with the previous Jetta/Bora, Volkswagen is again trying to market the car as a rival to mainstream cars from the class above, such as the Ford Mondeo and Vauxhall/Opel/Holden/Chevrolet Vectra, leaving the Passat to compete against the premium marques. The smaller Jetta, though, is still a Golf saloon whose true rivals are the Ford Focus, Vauxhall/Holden/Opel Astra, etc.
[edit]

Variants


Golf Plus


In December 2004, Volkswagen announced the Golf Plus variant of the Golf V. It is taller than the standard Golf, but shorter than the Touran, the MPV version of the Golf. The Plus would replace the Variant station wagon in the Golf lineup, although a Variant may yet be released.
There will be no convertible version of the Golf V, as the Eos coupé-convertible (to be introduced in Spring 2006) will be marketed as a separate model and the New Beetle convertible makes a droptop Golf redundant. The Eos does not share body panels with any other Volkswagen model, although it is based on the Jetta/Golf platform.
[edit]

Performance models


Mk V GTI with 18" wheels


The Golf V GTI is hailed as a return-to-form for the progenitor of the genre. The Golf GTI features a 2.0 litre turbocharged inline 4-cylinder engine with FSI (Fuel Stratified Injection) direct-injection technology, which produces 200 bhp. It is available in both 3-door and 5-door hatchback body shapes, and comes with a choice of either 6-speed manual, or a 6-speed automatic DSG gearbox. The concept GTI was first shown to the public at the Frankfurt Motor Show in 2003. The first production model was initially unveiled at the Mondial de l'Automobile in Paris in September 2004 and went on sale around the world shortly thereafter. At the Los Angeles Auto Show in January, 2006 the GTI made its long awaited North American debut in 3-door guise.
In late September 2005, the R32 went on sale in Europe. It features a 3.2 L V6 FSI engine with 250 hp (184 kW) and reaches a top speed of 250 km/h. Going from 0 to 100 km/h will take a brisk 6.5 s, reduced to 6.2 s with the direct-shift gearbox. As with the previous R32; there is 4MOTION all wheel drive through 18" Zolder 20-spoke alloy wheels. Stopping the R32 comes in the form of blue-painted brake calipers with 345 mm discs at the front and 310 mm disks at the rear.
After much speculation, information on the Golf R36, the Golf V's high-end flagship, began to leak in April 2006. It will get the 3.6 litre V6 engine from the Passat, and cost around £1,500 more than the R32. With 19-inch rims based on the Lamborghini Gallardo's, it is expected to race from 0 to 60 in 6 seconds. It keeps the R32's 4MOTION, but suspension changes are expected to make it more driver-focused, and less refined. A March 2007 launch is expected. [3].
In September 2005, the Golf V GT was announced, which featured a 1.4 L engine in a new and impressive Twin-Charger configuration. This new TSI engine is based on the recent FSI, but with a pair of chargers forcing the induction of the air. The chargers are a single supercharger that disengages after a specified rev-range, at which point charging of the air is handled by a single turbocharger. This system could benefit from both of the efficiency of the supercharger in the lower rev ranges, with the longevity of the turbocharger higher in the rev range. This results in no turbo lag and provides good fuel efficiency due to its small size, but the same power as a naturally aspirated 2.2 litre engine.
The inital American ad campaign for the GTI featured the "fast", which Volkswagen says is the feeling and force inside you that likes driving and encourages your driving passion, with the tagline "Make friends with your fast". However, recently those ads were replaced with a series of ads starring Peter Stormare as a "German engineer" hired to "un-pimp ze auto" by taking tuner cars and smashing them, giving their owners a GTI instead. The slogan for the campaign is "Pre-tuned by German engineers", however it has been Stomare's lines of "VDub: representing Deutschland!" and "V-Dub: German, engineering, in da haus!", delivered with a stilted German accent and coupled with a "VDub" hand motion, that have popularized the ads.

 

Is This the Sixth Generation Golf?


© 2006 The VW Gazette. Photos courtesy of Autobild
The German website Autobild has acquired a few shots of the rumored sixth generation Golf sporting heavy camouflage. Over the past few months, many have predicted that Volkswagen may expedite the release of the Mk.VI Golf due to concerns that the current generation Golf is too expensive to build. Whatever the reason, we should expect the sixth generation Golf in 2008, this considering the Golf has yet to be fully launched in the US. This means that we may hear something official from Volkswagen about the sixth generation Golf just as the North American Rabbits complete their first year in the market. Folks, we may be witnessing the shortest product cycle ever. If a 2008 European introduction or launch can be expected, then there may be a new Rabbit coming over in just three to four years.

Based on the images, the Golf does indeed get a new body. The roof is more noticably sloped, especially in the front windshield as compared to the current Golf. Although not seen with the camouflage in place, the new body will have a distinctive edge sweeping across the body and peaking just above the door handles. The new Golf will also get more prominent bumpers, as well as a different grille from the the current Golf. Also, the taillights will get an LED upgrade.

 

I have driven both recently and have to respectfully disagree. There is no noticable lag on the 2.0 and it hits and holds more than 200 ft lbs of torque from 1800-5000 rpms. The MCS does not hit its max torque of 140 ft lbs until over 3000 RPMS. Numbers don't lie, and in this case, neither do driving sensations, the power in the GTI comes on immediately when you hit the gas, much sooner, harder and more evenly distributed than in the Cooper S. Hopefully the FSI turbo in the next mini will have as flat a torque curve as the GTI does now.

Graphs of power curves:
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ro.../photo_08.html
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring...dsg-review.htm

 

Ugh, I hear you about the MA not making the experience that great. Mine seems pretty disinterested. He doesn't return emails, phone calls, etc. He can't provide any useful information about what ship my car is on, he didn't fax the price to me so I can bring it to my bank and get my car loan, and he just generally doesn't seem to really care about my business.

If it weren't so close to the deadline for an '06, I'd cancel the damn thing and go with someone else who really cares about the whole experience. I've heard such great things about other MA's who do an awesome job, going out of their way to make the experience really great for their customers, who more often than not are super excited to get their MINIs!

 

Ride-VW
Exclusivity-MCS
Cost-?
Resale-I still side with the MCS
Practicality-??? up to you
Reliability-again, tough to say, but give it to VW
Fun-the whole package-MCS, but I haven't driven a new GTI, so I'm biased.

They really do push different buttons on different people. Shouldn't be that tough a decsion.

 

I've owned 3 VW's (Rabbit, Scirroco, Jetta) and thoroughly enjoyed each for the same reasons I love my Mini. None of those reasons could be quantified by a bunch of statistics, (HP, skid pad, slalon time, etc.) What constitutes the "fun to drive" factor is dependant on the driver but I personally believe Mini will have to increase HP to stay competative.

My wifes car is due for replacement in a couple years and it may be a tough choice between a turbo Mini and a MKV. Currently hoping she'll opt for the Mini, if for no other reason than, I think the VW is just flat out ugly.

In your case, already having a bad experience with the dealership would be the biggest concern. Frankly, I wouldn't buy the Mini for this reason alone.

Sorry if this muddys the water.