I agree with that statement. As to supply and demand, my guess is that the first gen will drop in value but not dramatically:

1. I think the biggest determiner will be how many of us first gen owners are going to want to trade in for the second gen. I always read here on NAm and on MINI2 all the grousing from current owners about the new second gen. But the forum users are in limited number and I think there are many who will be eager to get into the new model. I bought my MINI new in January this year. At the time the dealer had many used MINIs on their lot due to the number who traded in to get the convertible. Sure there is a difference between going ragtop and going second gen but I still think many will jump to new. So if many make the trade then there will be an influx and higher supply of first gen used MINIs driving the price down.

2. I do not think that the second gen will create that many new buyers. I agree that MINI will unlikely produce or sell many more in the second gen than they do currently. In other words I don't think BMW sees this second gen as creating an entirely new market or a much bigger market but will have roughly the same limited appeal that the first gen has.

3. I think one of the great things about the MINI is that its design seems timeless to me. I think this will help keep resale value from plummetting.

4. In my opinion the perfect way to foretell what the affect of the redesign will have on value of the first gen is to take a look at how the restyling of the BMW 7 series, 5 series and now 3 series has affected the resale values of the former design. Just like with MINI a lot of BMW owners have groused a ton about the redesigns. But that has neither slowed sales of the new designs dramatically nor affected resale of the previous designs dramatically.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with this assessment. There was a recent article on Motoringfile where the head of US MINI sales laments that he can't get more cars, but it's due to production capacity and worldwide distribution, not some artificial quota. The goal of any carmaker is to sell as many cars as it can, taking into consideration demand versus production constraints. The 30K or so MINI's that BMWNA sells here every year is probably just a little low, this is still a niche car and they'd never sell 100K of them a year even if they had them.

 

Dont know where you get your info from buy your wrong, sorry

1. BMW is NOT limiting numbers, they cant make them fast enough. They are cranking up their production capacity as fast as they can. Read the BMW posts on Motoringfile
2. Accept a Turbo? Are you really saying that? How many supercharged cars do you see on the road? Guess why there arent many ... The fact is more like its CHEAP to build supercharged cars and BMW wanted to get the MINI to market as fast as possible. Now that they have had time, they can build the turbos. If you never had a turbo, you cant understand the rush it gives
3. Why do you think that there will be no "normal" second gen MINIs? Again, read motoringfile. they are there.

Sorry to refute what you say but your a bit off base here with the facts.

 

That sentence is a pearl of wisdom. The number of "avid" performance oriented modders is a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers who leave their cars stock (in terms of performance).

MINI is out to sell cars and they will do so in way to get the masses to buy in. Take a look at the farce known as CSL. Its far from what the performance oriented people expect.

 

I don't get #2.... the end result of what a turbocharger and a supercharger do are the same... spin a turbine that dumps more O2 and gas into the combustion chamber. The only difference is what powers them (exhaust vs crank shaft). Can someone explain why a turbocharger is better? I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand!

 

I can only speak from what I've owned and thats a supercharged MR2 AND a MR2 Turbo at the same time, and later an Eclipse Turbo. The supercharged boost is always there building gradually... Being mechanical, its always running. The Turbo boost comes in a rush. Bang and your on the boost. I think thats one reason why the MR2 Turbo was much faster than the SC version.

I read on motoringfile that BMW is trying to make the new gen turbos come on the boost early, like 2K or something. The downside is Turbo lag, in that the thing got to spin up to 100K RPM or something like that. I also thinks its easier to get higher boost levels with the turbo. There IS a reason most car manufacturers offer Turbos vice SC cars.

 

I am not really in disagreement but the statement that a carmaker wants to sell as many cars as possible is not exactly true taken by itself. If BMW's goal was to sell as many cars as possible perhaps they would make cars that compete with Ford, GM and Toyota and maybe they would even make a pickup truck (imagine a BMW pickup truck). The BMW's and MINI are niche cars (as was said by mtbscott). Now the statement possibly holds more true once the niche is created. But even that may not be so true in the short run. I read that Pontiac intends to limit production of the new Solstice to 20,000 units per year even though it appears obvious that initial demand will be way more than that. But they have decided that they do not want to suffer the misatkes of the PT Cruiser for example which cranked production and flooded the market so much to take advantage of initial demands that it lost its unique appeal and burned out relativley quickly. So Pontiac is trying some self discipline by limiting production. But this decision though may show that the goal is not to meet demand in the short run I belive they presume this decision will result in overall more sales in the long run.

Not that I know exactly what BMW is thinking but one of the most difficult aspects in marketing is determing at what number you have too much production or too much sales. If they truly wanted to sell as many MINIs as possible the design would be much more mass appeal blah (ie the Camry or Accord) then they would have intense advertising and become price competitive. I think BMW has demonstrated that this is not their style. From what I have seen of the redesigned MINI, it is not all that different - I wouldn't call it blah. I don't see BMW becoming a huge mass market advertiser or wanting to compete with Toyota or Ford or GM (God forbid).

I am guessing here but I would say that MINI is the oddball in the BMW line. Its price is much more in the mass appeal market but they don't seem to be going for mass appeal. Most car makers want an entry level car that gets people into the line and they want higher priced cars to keep buyers in the line as they mature. I think they see the MINI as the car they want to attract 20 something year olds who are young white collar buyers who will grow into financially able buyers for the BMWs as they mature and marry and have children and grow professionally and financially. Again my guess here is that the ultimate car buyer for BMW would be someone who buys a MINI at age 20 (what marketing I have seen for MINI seems to be directed at youth) then that buyer buys a 3 series at 30, a 5 series at 40, and a 7 series at 50. But then there are all of us oddiballs much older than the market that they seem to market the MINI to that love the MINI.

Bottom line for me is that I still don't see the second gen MINI being a whole lot more mass appeal or a whole lot more produced and sold than the current MINI. Sure growth is always a goal but controlled limited growth only. I believe that BMW has a firm grasp on who they want for its buyers and that that is a limited niche market and they won't be designing it into a Corrolla with six figure US sales and it won't (in my opinion) dramatically drop our resale values.

Oh geez I have wriiten way to much here - sorry everyone.

 

Probably.

Although MINIs are still sold through a relatively small dealer network which keeps resale values up, it's getting bigger all the time, and anytime a new model comes the blue book automatically drops. Period. Most accessories don't have anything to do with resale value, both aftermarket & OEM. We just traded our Honda Odyssey van in on our '06 and the Kelly Blue Book value only allowed for certain options. I had about a grand invested in an Alpine CD player & 4 channel amp, didn't make any difference in appraised value. Last year I bought a 1992 Miata that booked for $4500, added about $4k in options (supercharger & chrome bits). But once the next gen Miata came out, blue book immediately dropped to $3500. I was lucky enough to sell it for more than I paid for it, but only because I found a buyer that wanted that exact setup. If resale is your concern then don't spend a dime on accessories, they never factor into the final price.

 

How many of us originally bought our MINIs because of the possibility of appreciation or retained value / slow depreciation? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Thought so. We drive our little beasts because they are an absolute blast, not because their value will increase, remain the same or plummet. Fact is, I plan to get all of the value out of my MCS, eventually laying to rest a shell of the car, after having run her hard for however many miles it takes.

The premise of this thread, that we should be concerned about falling values is truly misdirected. As the saying goes, "there are those who know the price of everything, but the value of nothing."

 

You are way off base.

I started the thread and the question was:

"MINI has been reknown for holding its value, most cars. ... with the looming change in generations, will it continue? ...I read that a dealer was telling people to get out of the market now while the values are high ..."

When people started to bring up about "cars as investments" I clarified by saying

"Yes it matters. It matters to anyone who might be on the verge of buying a new car ... wait, buy now, buy later, etc. The issue of a MINI being an investment is a moot point. It has been discussed numerous times ... over and over again. Not the question but thank you ... in case you hadnt read the other threads:smile:"

What part of my original question do you not understand?

What part of "The issue of a MINI being an investment is a moot point. It has been discussed numerous times ... over and over again." Do you not understand?

I NEVER mentioned "investments". I'm talking about buying and selling cars in the market ... when to buy, when not to buy, especially if your on the verge on buying. Bringing up the old MINI line of We drive our little beasts because they are an absolute blast" has NOTHINGto do with my question and it totally OT.

 

Sounds like an investment question to me, but that's besides the point. A good rule of thumb is that appreciating assets should be purchased, depreciating assets should be leased. Automobiles, with very, very few exceptions, fall into the latter category. I would caution the investor to lease rather than purchase their vehicles, including MINIs. The enthusiast, on the other hand, recognizes the limitations incurred when leasing (no mods, restrictions on mileage/usage, no excursions into Old Mexico) and will have none of this investment poppycock. She will purchase her MINI and run the thing until it finally gives up the ghost, with nary a thought to its resale value.

 

I seriously doubt anyone considers a car an investment unless your buying at Barret-Jackson and I said, over and over again,.

The issue of a MINI being an investment is a moot point. It has been discussed numerous times ... over and over again. Not the question but thank you ...

What is so difficult to understand? Why bring up something I said was moot and discussed way too many times?

IF someone is looking to buy a new car, the question is now or later (as some BMW dealers have indicated the price will drop? I dont think thats an "investment". Nobody is looking for the price to "appreciate"

Never mind, bad and long day ... I need some prozac

 

Prices dropping to MSRP I'll believe, below that as in some kind of Divine BMW sponsored "employee discount" ala Ford/GM/DC nevergonnahappen. Why? several reasons, principal among them supply and demand. MINI production is at peak capacity. If one market, say North America, gets a bit saturated, BMW will merely shift distribution to other markets. Also BMW is a closely held corporation, it is not so dependent upon shareholder's return on investment each and every quarter as the larger publicly held manufacturers in the industry. My advise is buy the MINI when you need or want a new car. There won't be a "price rollback" now with a weak dollar, strong euro, high worldwide demand, production limited to a single factory, limited number of dealers, etc.

 

Prices dropping to MSRP I'll believe, below that as in some kind of Divine BMW sponsored "employee discount" ala Ford/GM/DC nevergonnahappen. Why? several reasons, principal among them supply and demand. MINI production is at peak capacity. If one market, say North America, gets a bit saturated, BMW will merely shift distribution to other markets. Also BMW is a closely held corporation, it is not so dependent upon shareholder's return on investment each and every quarter as the larger publicly held manufacturers in the industry. My advise is buy the MINI when you need or want a new car. There won't be a "price rollback" now with a weak dollar, strong euro, high worldwide demand, production limited to a single factory, limited number of dealers, etc.

 

Personally I am very happy that the resale values are as high as they are. It made trading up from my '02 MCS to an '06 MCS much less painful.

This is the first time in my automotive owning career that I have ever traded or sold a vehicle with less than 100,000 miles on the odometer. The overiding reason that I upgraded to an '06 was to have the factory LSD. A secondary reason was to have the last model year of the original new MINI.

I am not so sure of what is coming in '07 and would rather keep the supercharger whine for as long as I can. The spy photos of the new body shapes really don't do anything for me, other than to make me flinch. The talk of stretched wheelbases also bothers me as that leads to more weight and less fun.

Maybe in a few years I will become used to the new shapes, but for now I'll stick with the original.

 

First off I scanned this entire thread, not read word for word, and I haven't seen anyone bring us the Mini, as in Classic Mini. From what I understand the price of the Mini went up when the MINI was introduced. This may be a regional thing but with people buying them world wide I don't think so.

I really don't care if the cost goes up or down as I'm keeping my 03 MCS until the day I die. My daughter has already said I spend so much time with it that she'll bury me in it (which would be OK with me).

My two cents worth.

Earl

 

I agree with that. MINI2 UK folks are a bit nervous.

See here http://motoringfile.com/2005/11/08/m...ause-shortage/

this will help US prices.

 

Right on the $$. That, and the percentage of used MINI's on the market over any period of time is another factor. As long as production #'s are low and demand stays high, resale values will hold nicely despite the intro of the nextgen. Especially if gas prices go back up, because last time it wiped out dealer stocks of used cars.

Also, MINI (or Mini) is a marquee brand with 1. a racing heritage all its own, and 2. for the impact the original car had on twentieth century automotive design, ie "European Car of the Century". This factor cannot be underestimated, and ultimately creates curiousity and desireabilty--people want them, but not enough are made.

After all, why do U think BMW held on to Mini after dumping Rover? They knew.... Jimbo

 

I think the argument between you and MGCMAN is essentially just semantics although obviously incited by MGCMAN's use of the word "misdirected" in referring to the original question.

Back to the original question, who was this dealer telling people to get out? A MINI dealer? I can't imagine that. Why would a MINI dealer try to discourage the sale of MINIs unless what he was doing was trying to acquire a MINI from the person he was advising to sell. But if not a MINI dealer I can imagine it was a dealer trying to sell something else. With no offense intended I wouldn't generally regard "advice" of a dealer as a great source as they usually have another motive for the "advice".

It also appears that perhaps the dealer statement is essentially treating the MINI as a commodity. To a dealer a car is a commodity and thus the "investment" word can natuarally arise. Buy low, sell high, right? But to most of us buyers it is not so much a commodity as it is a fun car.

I have a feeling MGCMAN's "misdirected" comment may (or should) have been more toward the dealer statement than your question.

My opinion remains that I doubt that the MINI will suffer the same market problems at the PT Cruiser and New Beetle and I am one of the apparent minority that thinks redesign is a good idea and that in the long run it will actually keep values up rather than down. I see no reason to make a panic sale. And even if I am wrong I still love my MINI no matter what the market thinks.