Since Mini and the dealer won't do anything I have made a decision. My wife's love for the car has encouraged me to try some things on my own. I plan to replace the injectors and fuel filter first and if that doesn't do it I will do the O2 sensors. If that still does not cure it, it will be lemoned.

By the way take your tranny debate to another thread. It has no business here.

 

Glad to see that you are not giving up on the MCSa. That's the spirit!

Have tried going to another dealer?

 

Agreed.

 

Next closest dealer is about 175 miles away.

 

OK, these are some stupid comments, but I'll post anyways.

1) Do you have access to, or know someone who can lend you an OBD2 reader? It's not particularly useful, but maybe the MINI dealer isn't looking at the situation properly, and this might help you pinpoint the problem. Something like BIM-COM would be the ideal tool, but it's not released as of yet. I know codes do not tell all, but they are just a starting point.

2) In 2000 my 94 Voyager would stall when making a right turn and slowing down. After the dealership and other mechanics replacing different parts (alternator, spark plugs, etc...), a Voyager specialist in our area knew exactly what it was - the O2 sensor. Go figure.

3) Software updates - I have read on this board tat sometimes software updates do not take, and the software reverts back to the prior version.

4) Finally, was the dealer willing to replace the computer?

 

My person opinion is that Mini wants to turn a blind eye to the problem. They are not allowing dealers to work on the cars. If no code is present than there is no problem to fix. Three of the last four trips to the dealer there were no codes registered. The last time the was a fault code registered that told them to replace the throttle body. That was not the problem. I have spoke to both the service manager and tech. I have voice my ideas as to the potential problem/fix. Unless there is a directive from Mini of a fault code they cannot replace anything under warranty. The software is verified as v43. The last software flash the computer was sent to MiniUSA for programing.

 

I wonder if you checked the exhaust if you could determine if its running too lean, etc and use that? And this may sound silly, but maybe if Oregon requires smogs like Cali and you could show that it would not pass they would be forced to do something.

Anway, I know you have thought through everything, just trying to help.

 

MiniMe, it looks like you are focusing on the fuel system. I'll be interested to see if you get results from your work. When I picked mine up this last weekend, the MA spoke at length about trying a couple tanks of a different octane if I had troubles. The dealer was pointing at the ethanol fuel mixes here in the Midwest, saying the ethanol was 'gumming everything up'. I can't quite believe that, you'd think the ethanol would clean it out. Did Rasmussen say something similar to get you looking at fuel flow?

 

I saw this and found the conversation curious. The MidWest in no different with its gas than the East. Here in NJ, we with the '04 MINIs are experiencing the same difficulties with the ethinol in our gas. I have learned to compensate with some basic "heel and toe" and that has helped tremendously. I've also tried different gasolines and found the BP causes the least problems.

Software upgrades should only be done to a vehicle if it is experiencing a problem that is fixed with the upgrade. If nothing is broken/malfunctioning, then you can create more problems for yourself and your MINI by installing a software program that your car doesn't need. Be careful what you wish for.

As for the MINI not wanting the dealers to work on the cars. That is not it. A lot of the components on the MINI are sealed. To open the sealed component opens a whole other can of worms that you can't even begin to imagine. As a last resort, depending on the severity of the difficulty the car is having, MINI might instruct the mechanic to replace the component but it is NEVER opened.

 

--The parts that ARE replaced tho should be taken apart at the depot level back in England or Germany where ever MINI's R&D department is. I used to do depot level forensics on jet engines when I was in the military and we would tear a whole engine apart and document what went wrong. Put the whole thing back together again with good parts and test the hell out of that engine.

I understand that the dealer mechanics aren't qualified to to take everything apart, but someone in MINI should be.

I'm an MCSa owner and although I don't have any mechanical problems yet *knocks on wood* I am unhappy with the rookie shift pattern and engine management programming done on the ECU and transmission. When it downshifts it shifts abruptly and hard and at times violently. This to me shows that MINI is not used to working with this AISIN transmission in particular and needs to perform more R&D on its programming.

MINI has had a really good run so far improving its car dramatically almost every year. I just hope they haven't gotten fat dumb and happy because their sales are so high right now.

--pyratio

 

After re-reading this entire thread about 3 times, I'm still trying to figure out what the current problem is with MiniMe05's car. At the beginning it sounded like persistent EML issues mixed with cold-start, but not sure if that's still the problem.

My interest lies in the fact that this experience mirrors my own with my '02 MCS. I had several problems that had these same symptoms, including erratic idle when I would come to a stop (after long drives), EML/limp mode a few times, etc. The final solution *was* to replace the Electronic Throttle Body, a.k.a. the "EDK" - search for EDK here on NAM for the explanation. At the time, it had to be ordered from Germany, so I got to drive a '04 Z4 for a week. I was happy with that interim fix....

It took a couple visits to MINI of St. Louis for them to get it fixed, but when they finally were able to see the car with a hard failure, they replaced the "EDK" and it was solid as a rock from that point on.

I would be concerned about the Engine Wiring Harness (not just the MCSa recall, which is a re-routing), the EDK, and maybe a few other things. It could be something fairly simple like a bent/pushed pin on the TB connector, or maybe somewhere else in the harness. If you really want to get it fixed, do as ururk suggests and get a OBD-II code reader. Every time that SES light comes on a code is stored and they're pretty darn specific. It really helped me to log the codes that were being generated (and when) and formulate some possible solutions on my own.

I guess what I'm saying is "Don't give up!", others have been down this road before you and if you are persistent, you can get it fixed. If you can work *with* the service department, in a non-confrontational way you'll make a lot of headway. I suggest showing up with a couple dozen donuts the next time you come in!

Good luck, I know it's frustrating but in my opinion it's worth it. I should mention that I did sell my '02 just before the warranty expired but... I replaced it with a '05 MCSa..

 

Big I appreciate the input. The problem has been and continues to be the cold start/rough idle/no throttle response. For about the first 2500 miles the car was great no issues. Then it started with a slightly rough idle at start up but cleared right up. It progressed to the point of 4-5 start attempts to get it to run out of limp mode at all. After sitting waiting 5-6 minutes idling in the drive way to warm up it will some what drive. What I mean by some what is that there is a 3-5 second delay from pressing the accelerator to the car responding at all. Picture this sitting at a stop waiting for a break in traffic to pull out. You see your break and step on the gas. Count to five before the car does more than idle. Makes merging just a little unsafe at best. It has been to the dealer 5 times for the issue. I believe we started with software version v39 and have had every new version up to the current v43. Friday the replaced the complete throttle body assembly. No improvement. With the exception of an Invidia catback the car is 100% bone stock. Not even an after market airfilter. I am very knowledgable when it comes to cars. I built the Lightning and STi listed in my signature. I have been over the Mini with a fine tooth comb looking for loose wires, vacuum leaks, etc. Nothing. So far only one hard code has been set. That is what led the dealer to replace the throttle body. What leads me to believe that Mini is not doing anything is that's what they told me. "They are well aware of the problem but have no fix at this time". Nice. Keep in mind we have been fighting this for almost 6 months. How long do we wait for a fix? My wife has already been stranded and the car had to be towed. I could not deal with it if something happened to her while she wait the 3 hours for a tow. I worry every morning she leaves the house to go to work. Not real comforting. I have never been confrontational with the dealer. I have offered ideas to the possible cause. The fuel system seems like the most likely place to start. Some of the symptoms are similar to poor performing injectors (ie bad spray pattern). So I figure why not start there. The filter is the cheapest and easiest, so it's first. I already have another set of injectors that I had plan to modify for increased flow. Glad I haven't had time to modify them. So since I have the parts the injectors are next. I have a fuel pressure gauge to test the start up pressure at the fuel rail. Plan to do before and after readings. From there I will probably pull the pick up out of the tank to make sure there are no issues there. My Lightning had a clamp come loose on the fuel pick up that cause some issues so it's worth a look. If the pressure and voltage are good on the pump I won't do anything with it. Once the fuel system is ruled out from tank to injector I will look at the O2 sensors. If that does not do it, it's getting lemon'd. Belieb=ve me this is not a knee jerk reaction. We have been very patient. My wife loves the car.

 

Geez... calm down. Don't bite my head off.

 

Thanks for the reply - this is indeed a unique problem - I've watched most of this board and MINI2 for the last couple years and I don't recall ever seeing anyone describe the 3-5 second delay as you do. Does the same problem occur when applying the gas pedal once you are underway? i.e. if you are cruising at 40 MPH and you press the gas pedal, does it take 3-5 seconds for a response, or is it immediate?

Does the car have DSC? I've seen quite a few threads where people had issues with the DSC being overly sensitive and holding the car back at initial take off because the wheels were spinning. You may want to experiment with the DSC off if you have it. Of course, this doesn't have anything to do with the cold start issue.

I've also seen lots of folks have initial launch issues when the A/C compressor is engaged (i.e. when the A/C is on or anytime the auto climate control is on, unless you manually shut it off). While it's true it does make a noticeable difference, I always found it to be more of a matter of learning the proper clutch technique. Here in sweaty St. Louis we spend most of the warm months with the A/C on and the windows up.

I don't believe it to be related to the software version, I had 4 or 5 versions on my '02 and they all worked about the same. If you search this site you will see lots of speculation and conjecture about various software versions and the effects they have on certain cars, but I've always tried not to get caught up in the hoopla and go based on my own experiences.

This all still sounds like the EDK or the associated wiring harness. There is a throttle position sensor in the EDK which provides the closed-loop feedback to the ECU so it knows where the throttle is and can adjust appropriately. *If* the ECU is receiving bogus information from the EDK during startup, idle, or when given pedal input, it would certainly not be commanding the appropriate throttle, injector and spark to make the car run correctly.

The EML light and "limp mode" is an indicaton that the ECU is receiving sensor input that doesn't make sense -- the ECU lights the EML and goes into limp-home mode as a failsafe mechanism, intended to allow you to continue driving in a reduced capacity without potentially damaging the engine. The EML lamp was always scary to me, because the few times I saw it lit I ended up on a tow truck or at least several hours of parking-lot troubleshooting. The final time it happened to me on the '02 I was on my way into the dealer, zipping by the St. Louis Zoo at about 60 MPH in 3 lanes of heavy traffic, and the car dropped into limp-home mode spontaneously. That experience nearly made me have to change my pants. Anyway, I was able to get off the highway, and cycle the ignition. EML was cleared and I got her into the dealer. That was the visit where they finally fixed the problem.

 

The delay so far only happens from a stand still. It's not DSC related do to the car being at an idle. Accelerator flat on the floor an it remains at an idle. Now once the delay is done you do have to back off the gas or the DSC does kick in. The last few days the car is stumbling after being driven many miles. Always from a stand still. At speed it seems to run fine. I agree with you that I do not think it is software related either. There is something mechanically wrong. I just have not found what that bad part is. Mini will not give me any data to test with. I would like to measure the TPS voltage through the full range but I do not know what that range is. Not likely the problem since the TPS was replaced with the T/B.

My biggest gripe is that Mini should be doing this diagnosis. Even if I find this problem what about the next issue that comes up? Didn't we pay for a warranty in the price of the car? My STi and Lightning I have written off the warranties do to the level of mods. I built them for a specific purpose and understand the ramifications of doing so. The Mini was left stock so we would have a reliable daily driver.

 

Unfortunately you are stuck with a seemingly incompetent dealer. Their attitude baffles me to say the least. If you still love the car, I would make the 175 mile trek to the next MINI dealer and get a second opinion on the problem. In the Spanish language we have a say that goes like this "The last good errand is the one that doesn't get done at all".

If the 2nd dealer fails to provide a satisfactory diagnosis/fix, then review your options and proceed.

I have owned 3 MINIs in the past 3 years and all of them have been flawless vehicles. Never had issues with them leaving me stranded or anything of that nature. My Wife's '02 Cooper CVT with 33K miles is a hard working daily driver and runs like the finest piece of Swiss clock machinery. the car is over 3 years old.

My 2 MCS have been great and the '05 has also been flawless.

Good MINIs are not a coincidence or assign to the "lucky few". Believe it or not, chronic problem MINIs are the inmense minority, not the majority.

I wish the best of luck for you, because if I were in your situation I would be fuming! But in my view, your local dealer amounts for more than 50% of the problem.

Get another MINI from an out-of-state dealer. You'll be glad you did.

 

I never reccommend a Mini to someone looking for a "reliable daily driver." Reliability is not it's strong suit. That being said, it should work at least some of the time, and it sounds like yours doesn't. I agree that you should not be doing this advanced diagnosis, but am impressed that you can. Good luck.

 

B.S Alfa!

Next time you come down to Miami, I'll be happy to show you my service records for all 3 MINIs I have owned. Both of our cars are very hard working daily drivers and have not missed a beat. Many of our members also use their MINIs as daily drivers and reliability has not been put into question. My wife's Cooper sees a lot of demanding urban driving with no issues whatsoever.

Too bad your car hasn't lived up to your expectations, but I am afraid I will challenge half assed comments such as yours putting into question the quality and reliability of the car. I have 3 MINIs under my belt and many thousands of combined miles to back up my statement.

 

I have spoken to other dealers and they are in the same boat. They know about the problem and do not know what to do. Making the trek to the other dealer is not really an option. Days off of work, potential hotel, etc. Not worth the effort for no promissed fix.

Our biggest disenchantment is the lack of support from MiniUSA, not the dealer. If Mini stepped up and let the dealer try replacing/inspecting parts to identify the problem I would be happy to let them have the car. When we get the "don't know what to do" answers why continue to support the product.

 

I hear ya. I am not sure how the Lemon Law works in Oregon, but here in Florida it is essentially 3 strikes (And 15 days out of service) and you are out. After you send a letter to the manufacturer either requesting a refund/replacement, you must give them one more opportunity at diagnose/repair the car. Lemon law is a double headed sword so its best to proceed with legal counsel familiarized in navigating those treacherous waters. Often times, manufacturers prefer to settle outside of lemon law and honestly that is the more desirable outcome for both parties as you receive quick remedy (Refund/replacement) and the manufacturer doesn't have to incur court/legal costs plus labeling one of their cars as "Lemon" = hard to re-sell.

At this point in time, I think your options are very limited. If MINIUSA offers no repair remedy/refund/vehicle replacement without legal intervention, then you may have to phone your nearest lemon law attorney. Usually after the manufacturer receives the "letter" from your attorney they have up to 30 days to respond. During that period they may want to quietly settle outside of lemon law proceedings.

Horrible situation for sure I understand how cheated you must feel after spending a good chunk of cash into a car that is not working as promised and on top neither the dealer or the manufacturer know what to do about it. At the end of the day, this is not your problem. They manufactured the car and therefore by the law abiding warranty, they should be able to fix it. If they can't fix it, then it is defective (lemon) and they should either give you a full refund or a brand new replacement vehicle.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

 

Looks to me like he's selling the MINI......or does he have two?

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=54586

 

Preparing for the worse. We just got the aro kit out of the paint shop. No point in putting on the car if it potentially is going away. Believe me I would like nothing more than for Mini to find a fix for the car so I can install the kit.

I feel some progress was made today with both MiniUSA and the dealer. Hopefully we will have resolution in the next few days. We have been struggling with it for close to 6 months I guess another week won't matter.

 

Cool

I really hope MINIUSA does the right thing for you and offer a brand new replacement. I think that is the very least they could do given the problem history of your current ride.