Now that we can get a LSD has anyone not ordered the DSC on a MCS? I understand it is more than just traction control so I was wondering if anyone had any experience without it? Does the car "handle" that much different without the computer safety net? thanks.

 

You can't compare the LSD to the DSC. One is a mechanical controll to keep the wheels from loosing traction. The other is designed to keep the car from going out of controll.

 

I am not really comparing the two, I am asking if anyone is driving a LSD car without the DSC. One of the functions of the DSC is to control traction with the traction control, if I read it right, so it was acting as a high tech LSD. Now that they offer a true LSD, then I am wondering it the added expense is needed. Since most of us have been driving without a safety net for years, I was wondering how the MINI reacts, drives without it?

 

Well, as i said before, they are completley different. For only $500 more, it is well woth the cost for the added peace of mind. DSC acts as more of a stabalizer for the car by adjusting the brake and throtle to compensate for loss of traction. LSD changes which wheel gets power in order to get the most power to the ground. Sorry if i missed your question again, but this is the best description i can give you.

 

Actually, traction control (asc) is standard on the S. No dsc required.

 

Yes, but DSC is a more advanced form of ASC. 1 additional lateral sensor is added and the computer reaction becomes more advanced. From what i have read, ASC simply cuts power to prevent loss of controll. DSC actually uses smart methods of doing this.

BTW, this is coming from somebody who firmly believes in the protection provided by DSC...

 

I don't have DSC on my car, but do have the LSD.

I still need to turn off the traction control (ASC?) during spirited driving as the computer will pull back power in any situations where I lose traction front wheel traction on acceleration.

The car is plenty stable without the DSC. The electronic systems in the car (DSC, alphabet soup, et al) are great and everything, but they can't help the vehicle defy the laws of physics. I didn't order DSC as I know car control and I never drive in the snow (usually not in rain, for that matter).

So, no, the vehicle doesn't NEED DSC. If I were driving in inclement weather more often, or if my wife drove the vehicle daily, I think I may have purchased DSC. I decided I didn't need it, and I've been fine so far, even in some fairly heavy rain!

 

Yes, that is the biggest problem with both the DSC and ASC (ASC is the stock version of tcs available on the mini) is the loss of power under heavy acceleration. IF you want to do that, turn it off. The DSC and asc for that matter are best suited for defensive driving conditions. If you need to dodge something on the freeway when its raining, i wouldnt wana try it without the reasurance of having DSC.

 

Was DSC stock on the MCS before 2005? When I was shopping for an 04 I thought I saw a couple of MCS's without DSC.

 

I test drove a DSC car twice. Which is a limited sampling. I'm sure there will be people who will jump in and tell me this is wrong, and I would agree if I read it somewhere and hadn't felt it myself.

On my drive on a nice hilly back road I crested a sharp hill that did a immediate bend to the right just as the car got light on the crest. Just as I straightend the wheel after a nice twitch to follow the road the light flashed and I felt the DSC correct too. I now had double correction which was way to much and had to correct back. I went back and ran through it again just to see and same thing.

Likely it wasn't a real problem. But I FELT like it was correcting at the same time as me and thus overcorrecting and causing a problem. I did it yet again with DSC off and the car felt awesome. I then paid attention with DSC on and off. The only time in my test drives I felt like the car did something unexpected or gave me a scare was with the DSC on.

Since I was buying primarily for the handling as a fun car I did not get the DSC.

Is it my imagination? I would find it hard to believe a person could react as quickly as DSC, so perhaps it has a lag programmed in so as not to be too intrusive? I can even believe the car in normal driving is probably safer with DSC.

But for my personal taste I found it intrusive and REDUCING my confidence in the outstanding handling of the car. I did do the Dragon back in May and am thrilled with the poise of the car.

I felt with LSD, Traction control, ABS, Brake force distr control, and brake cornering control I should be fine even in snow.

You know one of the arly ABS cars I drove comes to mind. When the ABS kicked in and started modulating the sensation FELT to me like sliding on gravel. It was not and the car certainly stopped in the shortest possible distance. But...

I bought a MINI for the feel of the handling, the sensations. I prefer the sensation without the DSC even if the ultimate 'performance' is less.

I'd say, test drive a car with it on and also disabled and see what you think. It's a very subjective thing.

 

It is my understanding that the programming for the DSC is different when you have the LSD. The DSC is not as intrusive, it is programmed for more performance oriented driving.
I ordered the DSC with the LSD. It is nice to have when you don't expect to use it. It can always be turned off for track days.

Can the traction control be turned off independantly from the DSC?

 

Here is the article about the LSD and DSC.

read

 

Thank you gentleman. Now I am getting the answer to my question. I to have felt that sensation, since I have access to a 2002, had a 2004 & 05. Maybe it was my butt sensor that was off, but I felt the 2002 is less sensitive. I know the sport package on it is a bit more aggressive than the others so maybe that is what I am feeling. Anyway since I too am in an area without much weather (AZ) and I am buying this new car with mostly aftermarket upgrades in mind so that $500 could be used somewhere else. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some weird handling characteristic that the DSC protected us from. Remember the A class mercedes? Does the DSC go away completely when turned off, Like on those track days? Thanks again.

 

I have an 05 MCS convertible 6-spd stick with both DSC and the limited-slip diff. The car now has about 3000 miles on it, and I have developed the habit of disabling DSC whenever I get into the car.


I too, feel that the DSC is too intrusive, and that it seems to redouble my car control efforts during spirited driving.

Turning from a stop at the crest of a hill seems to bring out the worst in the system: The DSC senses some tiny amount of potential wheelspin (not enough to cause the tire to make noise, mind you) and cuts power drastically - but there is indeed a discernable lag before this happens. By the time it cuts in, I've already modulated the throttle, and am in a position where I need predictable throttle response, and the thing feels like a dead whale. If this is a less-sensitive version of the DSC compared to non-LSD MINIs, I don't know how anyone can tolerate it!

I'm waiting for my check to reach Ian Cull, so I can install his DSC Track Day Mode MINI Circuit.

I'm done with DSC, unless it's really wet out!

_Dave_

 

I'm not quite sure why you say that. Have you experienced instability with the DSC off? My '05 MCS w/LSD can make evasive maneuvers (i.e. - braking and turning hard at the same time) at normal highway speeds with no problems, even with an upgraded 22mm rear sway bar.

I think that DSC is great for the general public, but few people on this board seem to be the type that drive down the highway with a Big Mac in one hand while talking on their cell phones.

As many others have stated, DSC seems to correct for steering inputs in situations where that may not be helpful. I know that my dad's M3 understeers like a pig with DSC on, but is very balanaced and easy to control with the system turned off. I don't leave DSC on if/when I drive his car - it simply mutes or dampens the inputs I make to the vehicle.

 

Not exactly. I wouldn't say that DSC is an advanced form of ASC, but that ASC is a stand alone subset of DSC.

 

DSC was never standard on the MCS. ASC was standard.

To get back on topic.

I have been thinking about ordering my new '05 MCS without DSC and just getting the LSD. I know that the two are totally different, but in the past 2.5 years I cannot recall anytime the DSC light has come on unless it was a traction issue. Either in the snow or at an Auto-X event when I forget to turn it off.

 

I have LSD and DSC. I am happy to have both. However, like many others, I find DSC like an overbearing nanny during most day-to-day (dry weather) driving. Give it a little too much gas (as I frequently like to do), and it will slap you hard with a power drop that feels like you have stalled the engine!

Which is why I have the Ian Cull circuit with Track mode DSC. Every time I turn the car on, DSC gets turned off.

BUT

I'm still glad to have DSC... because if it's raining (or heck, even if the roads are still wet from previous rain), or if there's any hint of snow, I'll just switch DSC on, and know that I have the added security of a very advanced system helping me keep control of the car.

That's my take, get it, get the Ian Cull circuit, and enjoy. Of course you could just turn off DSC yourself every time you start the engine, but that becomes annoying.

 

I have a 2005 MCS w/o DSC and with LSD (alphabet soup indeed). I rarely push the car hard enough to activate the ASC. When the ASC light flashes I always wonder... what was that? until I go... Oh yeah'... I did push that last curve kinda' hard... ASC light.

According to the manual, DSC will activate individual wheel brakes whereas ASC can just do braking. Both will control power. I suspect that DSC could save you a bit better than ASC in a tough situation... but as mentioned before, neither will repeal physics (as also mentioned in the manual). DSC is better... how much better? Who knows... all I've ever seen is heresay and repeating of industry statements... never have I seen "Facts". Lets see a comparo' by an auto magazine. The MINI is perfect for it since the same spec machine can be had in none/ASC/DSC flavors. Lets throw in LSD to make a 6 car shootout in various situations.

So another question is "how much is enough?" I am generally happy with the actions of the ASC and would only turn it off in a formal speed event. If the ASC light is flashing on the highway it would not be a good thing to keep pushing it for long, IMHO, as only very hard driving (for the public highway) sets it off. I think the major use of DSC/ASC is for wet/snowy/otherwise slippery conditions (Wet leaves and manhole covers are always fun) that can sneak up on you. Otherwise... you know when you're being "Bad" and should be properly attentive to good technique.

 

Funny, even when I drive the car aggresssively, curves ,etc I do not have an issue with the DCS being really intrusive. But anyway, you can turn it off so I do not see the issue with it really.

As to ASC vs DSC, from what I recall reading about DCS vs ASC from BMW, DSC is indeed the more advanced system and operates differently (and I have experienced the difference in BMWs; the ASC cut in much harder and abruptly, killing the throttle completly for that moment, while the DSC was more graduated/less abrupt). In the end its meant to save your neck in emergency situations so I think it is well worth it for normal street driving.

PS: I used to have the habit of turning off DSC automatically in the bimmer, that is until one day it started to drizzle and I, driving like my normal self and enjoying a nice sweeper, found myself doing a 360 or two.. Now I see it for what it is and only turn it off for the right occasions.

 

There are actually studies that show DSC (and similar systems) as something that actually improves the safety of vehicles (unlike ABS, which has never been shown statistically to improve safety). I remember reading an editorial about this in Car and Driver, and they were very positive about the effectiveness of DSC for the general public.

All I was trying to say is that DSC is not a necessity in the Mini. The Mini possesses no "quirky" or "scary" handling traits that would require DSC to correct. In normal dry weather DSC does very little (if anything).

 

I've got an 05 w/LSD and ASC. I drove the DSC, found it slightly intrusive, and then decided that the Mini is such a great car that DSC was just a bit too much. I put the $500 elsewhere. No regrets. The car is as safe as a small car can be. Even in inclement weather, it handles well. Also, the ASC is not exactly a slouch of a system and does well when the going gets rough. It's also not as intrusive based on my limited experience testing the DSC and driving the ASC daily. The bottom line is that it's a personal choice. Given that I drove for years and years without either one of these systems, anything above no system is a plus. The question is how much above no system and how much interference do you want.

Heck you can't go wrong either way, or at least, you can rationalize either decision with good arguments for both.

 

Only ASC. No LSD or DSC.

 

I have not ordered yet, but at this point I am not getting the DSC. ASC is standard, and I'm definitely getting the LSD.

The only personal reason I would have for getting DSC is for 'peace of mind' if someone else were driving my car. I know that I would be turning it off all of the time, and as mentioned above, will use the $500 elsewhere. In addition, there will be *very* few people besides myself driving my MCS .

The clock is ticking - I get to order within the next two to three weeks :smile: :smile: :smile: !!.

 

Enjoy it! The Mini is a really fun car!